Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
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Originally Posted by
DaxxKahn
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Originally Posted by
bikersk
Agreed. Lewis did his best when he could. I doubt he could repeat that so any come back would be a disaster i'd reckon. Haye is yet to be tested and Povetkin would probably end up like Chris yesterday.
Lennox gave Vitali all he could handle then some, was winning the last 2 rounds before the stoppage, Lennox of 2 years earlier would have beaten either brother,,,,,,Lennox knew his time was up and to let the younger Brothers Grimm have their time....
Even if Haye has some success early I don't think he could deal with the constant jack hammer blows either Klitschko throws for too long...
A Klitschko jab is the average Hwts power punch,
My arguement is this, who would beat Lennox Lewis in the history of the heavyweight division? I don't rate Lennox as the best heavyweight ever, but I think he beats any other heavyweight in the history of the sport. He's too big, too fast, too coordinated, and he has shown that he does have fighitng spirit.
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
[quote=BIG H;791877]
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Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
Everybody talks about fighters from the past , like foreman , frazier etc but i fail to see how Vitali couldn't have competed with these guys , not to mention he is a monster size wise.
I personally think we dismiss modern HW fighters all to easily , fact is if sprinters and pole vaulters , hammer throwers , weight lifters are all getting faster and stronger respectively. Then how are this new breed of HW worse than the fighters before ?
PS/ there will always be the odd special fighter , but in general , we think Ken Norton for example is better than a David Tua ?
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Norton has a claim to having beaten the 2 greatest HWs of all time. Lots of 'ifs and buts', but he certainly beat Ali once , maybe even 3 times and some (not me) think he beat Holmes. Could Tua have don ethat?
The point im making is fighters at HW are getting to huge sizes and some are also great athletes , improving to being more than just a huge size.
Styles do make fights also , in my opinion Tua would have KOED the dodgy chinned Norton early , does that Make Tua better than Ali ?
PS. Both Norton and Tua were just examples from past and present.
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
Another double standard is that people bash them because of their safety first, jab-driven style, but seem to forget that the consensus #1 of all time, Muhammad Ali, employed a style just like that in his prime. Ali was a first rate track star.
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
My arguement is this, who would beat Lennox Lewis in the history of the heavyweight division? I don't rate Lennox as the best heavyweight ever, but I think he beats any other heavyweight in the history of the sport. He's too big, too fast, too coordinated, and he has shown that he does have fighitng spirit.
There are two guys I would pick against Lewis, and they are the same two guys I would pick against the Klitchko's.
Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes.
But I agree with your point.
Take Rocky Marciano for example. Consensus top 5 guy of all time, many consider him the greatest, and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would be DESTROYED by Lennox, Wlad or Vitali. Way too small.
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
[quote=Dark Lord Al;791892]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
Everybody talks about fighters from the past , like foreman , frazier etc but i fail to see how Vitali couldn't have competed with these guys , not to mention he is a monster size wise.
I personally think we dismiss modern HW fighters all to easily , fact is if sprinters and pole vaulters , hammer throwers , weight lifters are all getting faster and stronger respectively. Then how are this new breed of HW worse than the fighters before ?
PS/ there will always be the odd special fighter , but in general , we think Ken Norton for example is better than a David Tua ?
]
Norton has a claim to having beaten the 2 greatest HWs of all time. Lots of 'ifs and buts', but he certainly beat Ali once , maybe even 3 times and some (not me) think he beat Holmes. Could Tua have don ethat?
The point im making is fighters at HW are getting to huge sizes and some are also great athletes , improving to being more than just a huge size.
Styles do make fights also , in my opinion Tua would have KOED the dodgy chinned Norton early , does that Make Tua better than Ali ?
PS. Both Norton and Tua were just examples from past and present.
Im sorry but how the hell does anyone seriously believe tua beats norton!!
I fully agree that in certain instances current fighters arent given the same credit as their predeccesors. But Tua beating the great norton??
never in a million years!!
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
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Originally Posted by
hattonthehammer
Im sorry but how the hell does anyone seriously believe tua beats norton!!
I fully agree that in certain instances current fighters arent given the same credit as their predeccesors. But Tua beating the great norton??
never in a million years!!
I think it comes down to Norton's track record. Sure he did great against boxers like Holmes and Ali, but it seemed like he got sparked out by all the KO artists he was put up against. Foreman and Shavers put him out with no trouble, and Cooney damn near killed him.
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
Norton couldn't handle the "go for broke" power punchers...Tua would eat him alive....first figuratively and then litterally
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
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Originally Posted by
Lyle
Norton couldn't handle the "go for broke" power punchers...Tua would eat him alive....first figuratively and then litterally
Agreed. Norton's crab style of blocking is not suited to stand up to Tua's power. David has scary power
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
I would agree that the Klitschkos would be competitive in any era. They are supremely conditioned and can punch.......
I dont have a problem with their style and enjoy watching them both. At least when the Klitschkos fight they fight the top guys in the division, they inflict massive punishment on their opponents and most of the time get them out of there........
People will speak more highly of them when they retire....that is just the nature of people......
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.
the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.
Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.
I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
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Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.
the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.
Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.
I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.
Those are fighters you call technicians?
This is not even worth debating after thinking about it
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
yeah. wanna know what distinguishes them? the ability to fight inside. to pivot, slip and duck shots, counterpunch, deliver crisp combinations. Bowe resembled a young Toney at times.
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hattonthehammer
Im sorry but how the hell does anyone seriously believe tua beats norton!!
I fully agree that in certain instances current fighters arent given the same credit as their predeccesors. But Tua beating the great norton??
never in a million years!!
I think it comes down to Norton's track record. Sure he did great against boxers like Holmes and Ali, but it seemed like he got sparked out by all the KO artists he was put up against. Foreman and Shavers put him out with no trouble, and Cooney damn near killed him.
This is exactly my point , also i do not consider Norton a "GREAT".
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
heavyweights are generally fucking overrated.
the only technicians i ever saw in that division was Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas.
Lennox Lewis gets massively overrated. so does Wlad. just two really basic fighters who gets by with their gigantic stature.
I agree Vitali's a great fighter though. just for sheer awkwardness and durability. that's it. there are no outstanding "technical skills" to speak of this man. some fans need to watch more than the HW division which has always been mediocre.
I don't see how you can say Wlad and Lennox Lewis aren't great tacticians. Lennox was a terrific counter puncher, who had an amazing arsenal and leverage for a guy his size. He was a better tactician than Bowe, and along with his power and athleticism led to Bowe not wanting any part of him.
Wladimir does get by on the best jab I've seen maybe in any weight class, but its hard to dominate opponents with basically one punch regardless of how big you are, There are a lot of heavywieghts bigger than Wladimir, but I don't think any heavyweight has ever used their size more effectively than him, but part of that isn't just the size, Wladimir is often bigger, stronger, and faster than his opponents, but he throws punches properly, and defensively he has become very good at not getting hit, he is cheap defensively, but it works very effectively, he is too quick and tall on the outside and he holds on the inside.
I know people are going to get mad because Larry Holmes, Ali, Lennox Lewis, Sonny Liston, Joe Louis all had truly terrific jabs, but I haven't seen anyone have both the speed to land the jab at will and more importantly the power to truly use it to dictate range, confuse an opponent, and truly take the opponent heart away from the fight.
Re: Give the Klitschko's their just due
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sumkalambay
yeah. wanna know what distinguishes them? the ability to fight inside. to pivot, slip and duck shots, counterpunch, deliver crisp combinations. Bowe resembled a young Toney at times.
Watch young Lewis against Morrison among others, he was great at fighting at all distances. Lennox always was a great counter puncher, I don't think there is any one example better than the punch he landed on Rahman in their rematch, and a right hand he landed on Tyson near the end. Young Wladimir alon with Lennox both threw impressive combinations. I think Steward made them safer fighters, and the offensive flare as a result had to be extinguished, but its like saying that Mayweather isn't a great tactician because he doesn't throw combinations very often. Using your height is a skill in and of itself, and Bowe would have had an easier time with Holyfield IMO if he was more of a tactician.
