Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mickster4
How many people think that Paul should ditch that terrible trainer he has and make Emanuel his trainer? He needs to use his reach and jab effectively and Emanuel would help him do that.
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Willi
ams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
Manny is absolutely a hired gun. So what? As for the "snake oil salesman" I'm not sure where you're getting that. Near as I can figuire Manny's one of the 2-3 most successful trainers of the last 25 or so years.
What did Steward do for Jermain Taylor, Kermit Cintron and Chad Dawson ? Absolutely NOTHING. Not a damn thing. He put their old trainers, you know the ones that got them to the big time, out of a job and leeched off Taylor and Cintron.
The man uses his HBO gig as a platform to prey on boxers and worm his way into their corner and big pay days from them.
Come to think of it Andy Lee hasn't exactly panned out as the next superstar either has he ?
Steward is a good trainer, but he's not God like many think he is. Also his commentating is offensive as he flip flops constantly between whoever is winning then at the end always has to say "I told you so".
Hilmer Kenty, Tommy Hearns, Lennox Lewis, Wlad, Milt McCrory (and his brother Steve) and Jimmy Paul all did more than OK with Manny. Hell Ray Arcel was known as "Joe Loui's trainer" because he brought in so many guys who lost to Louis. Does that mean Arcel was only "good?"
By today's standards where the inept (like George Peterson and Jack Loew) are common even at the championship level, guys like Steward, Roach and Nacho provide a larger edge than probably at any time in boxing history.
Men like Williams and Pavlik have/are sacrificing/sacrificed their careers on the altar of loyalty. It's a terrible, terrible mistake.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Steward could do nothing for Williams because quite frankly Paul just isn't bright enough to take on board what he's taught. The guy apparently had 20 fights as an am in which he had a sub. 500 record. Now obviously that's the ams, but what it tells you is that he found it very difficult going in against guys on the fly & winning. He honed himself as a pro, but what he really did was take advantage of a particularly individual & remarkable athleticism.
The guy has never had to really learnt to move his head & relied on a great chin & pulling back off the shot in a straight line. If getting bust up in sparring, beaten by crafty boxers & actually being flat KO'd doesn't make you change up, nothing will whoever the trainer is. You also have to think that if he really stayed behind that jab whether he would have had the success he has. The ability to throw as many punches as he does means that he will open up to a guy with the head movement & ability to create angles as the opponents who've beaten him have.
Imo, he wouldn't have a W over Winky Wright (faded but the best name on his CV for me) if he was a typical Kronk boxer as it was a stylistically perfect match-up for him as he is. He also may have struggled to shock Margarito in the way he did early. The style has got him alphabets at 2 weights & millions of dollars & probably a damn sight more fans.
We really do forget how much the ability and desire to learn are important boxing talents.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mickster4
How many people think that Paul should ditch that terrible trainer he has and make Emanuel his trainer? He needs to use his reach and jab effectively and Emanuel would help him do that.
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Willi
ams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
Manny is absolutely a hired gun. So what? As for the "snake oil salesman" I'm not sure where you're getting that. Near as I can figuire Manny's one of the 2-3 most successful trainers of the last 25 or so years.
What did Steward do for Jermain Taylor, Kermit Cintron and Chad Dawson ? Absolutely NOTHING. Not a damn thing. He put their old trainers, you know the ones that got them to the big time, out of a job and leeched off Taylor and Cintron.
The man uses his HBO gig as a platform to prey on boxers and worm his way into their corner and big pay days from them.
Come to think of it Andy Lee hasn't exactly panned out as the next superstar either has he ?
Steward is a good trainer, but he's not God like many think he is. Also his commentating is offensive as he flip flops constantly between whoever is winning then at the end always has to say "I told you so".
Hilmer Kenty, Tommy Hearns, Lennox Lewis, Wlad, Milt McCrory (and his brother Steve) and Jimmy Paul all did more than OK with Manny. Hell Ray Arcel was known as "Joe Loui's trainer" because he brought in so many guys who lost to Louis. Does that mean Arcel was only "good?"
By today's standards where the inept (like George Peterson and Jack Loew) are common even at the championship level, guys like Steward, Roach and Nacho provide a larger edge than probably at any time in boxing history.
Men like Williams and Pavlik have/are sacrificing/sacrificed their careers on the altar of loyalty. It's a terrible, terrible mistake.
Oh we are going back 30 years now. Okay.
I'm talking recently besides the Klits, Steward has done shit for anybody besides bring Andy Lee to top 20 status.
And yeah Jack Loew is a fat moron. Hate that guy.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mickster4
How many people think that Paul should ditch that terrible trainer he has and make Emanuel his trainer? He needs to use his reach and jab effectively and Emanuel would help him do that.
That terrible trainer of his is like a Father to Paul Williams and has helped get Paul all the way to the top of the sport picking up a world title or two on the way.
Willi
ams isn't about to fire a guy like that nor should he for a hired gun snake oil salesman like Emmanuel Steward.
Paul would be well served to simply...KEEP HIS FUCKING RIGHT HAND UP !
Manny is absolutely a hired gun. So what? As for the "snake oil salesman" I'm not sure where you're getting that. Near as I can figuire Manny's one of the 2-3 most successful trainers of the last 25 or so years.
What did Steward do for Jermain Taylor, Kermit Cintron and Chad Dawson ? Absolutely NOTHING. Not a damn thing. He put their old trainers, you know the ones that got them to the big time, out of a job and leeched off Taylor and Cintron.
The man uses his HBO gig as a platform to prey on boxers and worm his way into their corner and big pay days from them.
Come to think of it Andy Lee hasn't exactly panned out as the next superstar either has he ?
Steward is a good trainer, but he's not God like many think he is. Also his commentating is offensive as he flip flops constantly between whoever is winning then at the end always has to say "I told you so".
Hilmer Kenty, Tommy Hearns, Lennox Lewis, Wlad, Milt McCrory (and his brother Steve) and Jimmy Paul all did more than OK with Manny. Hell Ray Arcel was known as "Joe Loui's trainer" because he brought in so many guys who lost to Louis. Does that mean Arcel was only "good?"
By today's standards where the inept (like George Peterson and Jack Loew) are common even at the championship level, guys like Steward, Roach and Nacho provide a larger edge than probably at any time in boxing history.
Men like Williams and Pavlik have/are sacrificing/sacrificed their careers on the altar of loyalty. It's a terrible, terrible mistake.
Oh we are going back 30 years now. Okay.
I'm talking recently besides the Klits, Steward has done shit for anybody besides bring Andy Lee to top 20 status.
And yeah Jack Loew is a fat moron. Hate that guy.
What you think Manny's gotten WORSE as a trainer?
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Paul Williams can't change now he's set in his ways.
Lots of truth about that being too loyal and so on, but sometimes a guy is at his best when he's with a trainer that knows him. Look at Jermain Taylor he swapped out his trainer for Manny and it didn't help him. Other guys are good no matter who's in their corner, look at De la Hoya or Holyfield.
Taylor is a good example of a guy who waited too long.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mickster4
How many people think that Paul should ditch that terrible trainer he has and make Emanuel his trainer? He needs to use his reach and jab effectively and Emanuel would help him do that.
I don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
Whatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Paul Williams can't change now he's set in his ways.
Lots of truth about that being too loyal and so on, but sometimes a guy is at his best when he's with a trainer that knows him. Look at Jermain Taylor he swapped out his trainer for Manny and it didn't help him. Other guys are good no matter who's in their corner, look at De la Hoya or Holyfield.
Taylor is a good example of a guy who waited too long.
Jermain Taylor seemed to regress under the coaching of Steward.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
To be honest, I can't see how Williams could be effective as a typical 'Steward Fighter'. I can't even see how his faults can be remided by the typical Steward mould... He's not gun shy, doesn't have stamina problems, isn't bonecrunchingly powerful and doesn't have a good jab nor anything like a good boxing IQ. A Steward fighter usually has at least 3 of these faults/ assets.
Give him Enzo Calzaghe I say ;D
Smart Man. Great observation. My thoughts exactly
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mickster4
How many people think that Paul should ditch that terrible trainer he has and make Emanuel his trainer? He needs to use his reach and jab effectively and Emanuel would help him do that.
I don't think getting Manny is going to help Williams much, It hasn't helped Chad Dawson.
Chad Dawson went out there against a top contender and was basically just beta testing the stuff Stewart was teaching him. It says a lot about the talent of a fighter to go out there and test run what the trainer is teaching him against a top fighter trying to beat him. Its almost like saying "I'm so good, I can go out there and just test drive lessons 1 through 10 and not have to worry about losing." That impressed me about Dawsons performance that he went out there at half speed testing mode, and won against a top fighter easily.
Whatever, I thought Dawson's technique looked worse then it had before, and I don't see a 'W' over Adrian Diaconu being any great accomplishment.
It was his first fight out right? I think he fought more his height and such with oppurtunity to make adjustments. Big thing is I think Manny wants Dawson to be more assertive and I dont think thats in his nature. Looks like he always gets stuck between styles and resorts to coasting.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Cotto has been helped by Manny. Andy Lee is ok with Manny, 1 loss which he's been ready to avenge for a long time. I think Dawson can get help from Manny.
Honestly for Williams I think his best bet for a different trainer to help him out would have been someone like Ronnie Shields or Pat Burns, not "super" trainers but good guys that know their stuff and could help with fundamentals.
Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Cotto has been helped by Manny. Andy Lee is ok with Manny, 1 loss which he's been ready to avenge for a long time. I think Dawson can get help from Manny.
Honestly for Williams I think his best bet for a different trainer to help him out would have been someone like Ronnie Shields or Pat Burns, not "super" trainers but good guys that know their stuff and could help with fundamentals.
Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.
Floyd Sr can teach him defense. That's all he need to learn. Especially since he like to fight in the pocket. A shoulder role will do the kids wonders.
Like someone else said, I don't think Paul is well done yet. He close but not yet. He could very well scout his next opponent, a righty, and not get hit as much and win a title
i.e. K9 and/or Saul
don't get me wrong, if he get caught by either, it won't be no need for a bedtime story.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.
He wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.
I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring. Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.
Re: Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.
He wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.
I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring.
Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.
That really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.
