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I voted yes on the basis that elite increasingly means guys who are at the very top. I wouldn't consider Zab an elite fighter in boxing overall, but I'd argue that he is one of the elite 140lbers. Also having scanned the other thread, I got the impression that it was implied Judah wouldn't beat Khan because he wasn't elite, sort of implying that Khan himself is elite. Tbh I should have just voted for don't care
I can agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
You don't think he's elite but you think he's one of the better fighters at 1bea40 which i agree with.
Khan isn't elite by the way, not yet anyway. Maybe in the future.
Judah won't Khan because he's not elite. He won't beat Khan because he always fades and Khan is the better fighter at this point.
I don't very often say it myself, didn't realize I had to be honest. Rum's to blame. I'm not sure where I would put 'top draw' with all my talk of elite and world class so I've fucked myself over a little bit. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by MemphisWhilst I cant disagree with your logic I would just like to applaud you for the use of 'top drawer'Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeHI pretty much agree with Pugilistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by MemphisWhat does Elite mean to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeH
Bilbo has already answered for me.
Right now Mayweather and Pac, maybe Martinez,Marquez and Bhop. Someone like Donaire will probably get there with more top drawer opposition.
If I had to put boxers in tiers id have Mayweather and Pac in a group at the top by themselves. To me they are elite and easily the best two boxers in the sport.
As i said in another thread, if we are to use words like elite, world class etc, there should be a unified defintion of it everyone can go by. As it is everyone has different opinions,
Many people on here say top draw, annoys the fuck out of me ;D
No way... He has lost all major fights he has been in and returns to win a few against c level fighters only to lose again. Like Mayweather said before about him is that he is a front runner and then gases later on. Judah will lose again against Khan and he will be right back in our faces a few fights later against a Bradley or Maidana and lose again. I swear the man is only 32 but it seems he has been around this sport alot longer. He should try Morales or Barrera after his knockout loss to Khan. I'm curious to see the game plan Whitaker has for him when the bell rings.
Be sure to vote in the poll fellow posters :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09
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Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
Keep voting folks.
Give saddos your opinion. :)
^^ Now this is a sensible post.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
well i apologize for not explaining my opinion properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
I do think Judah is a worthy opponent for Khan and i do think he is one of the better fighters at 140 (possibly top 5) but i don't think he's elite.
Elite to me is one of the best fighters in the world. Judah doesn't fit that category which i'm sure you agree.
I don't like Boxrec for ratings. It's ratings are always odd. For example, It has Bute as the number 1 super middleweight when it clearly belongs to Ward. Hell Froch deserves it more than Bute does.
I'm glad we cleared up our different opinions on the meaning of "elite". :)
A rough definition of elite is 'The best or most skilled members of a group'. I look at the group as boxing as a whole, in which case, as I said, to me Zab isn't nor ever has been elite. You seem to look at is each group is each weightclass? (not saying that's the wrong way to look at it).Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
I don't disagree with any of that really. The Ring have Judah at 6 also.
Regarding the fight against Khan itself I expect Khan to beat him convincingly down the stretch.
I also don't like that he's being trained by Pernell Whittaker. When I saw that I just immediately thought of Micky Ward with Arturo Gatti.
I think Judah will wilt and give up around rounds 7 or 8 and then be content to just survive.
He will dangerous early though and he's clearly the best of all available opponents out there for Khan, would have much rather have been facing Tim Bradley.
I voted no, but don't really disagree with any of the posts in this thread. It all depends what you take elite to mean. Saying Judah is so at 140 though, is really only because there are no great fighters currently in the division, at least imo. For me an elite fighter should be a legitimate threat to anybody more or less their size. Judah was basically beaten out of the WW division, and the best guys he didn't fight would've been and still would be solid favourites over him. He's certainly not much smaller than pretty well anyone who has beaten him. Definetly think he's a good opponent for Khan though, but mainly because Khan has shown to be quite vulnerable.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I think Judah will be dangerous early as always. He will probably catch Khan with a good left hand a couple of times and rock him.
Judah will fade though and i see Khan taking over with his jab and workrate, maybe stopping him late, I see it most likely being a decision win for Khan though, like 9 rounds to 3.
I see it sort of going like Khan's fight against Paulie but with Judah having success early with southpaw stance and left hand.
I hope Tim Bradley is next also. I'm a Bradley fan so i wanna see it happen bad.
using "elite" to mean simply among the best in /around his weight class, I might be tempted to say yes considering if he could put forth one great performance, he might be able to take down anyone with a belt.
Taking into account some of the people he lost to or got gift decisions over, or who took him deeper than they should. I can't say yes anymore. Elite fighters don't lose to those guys or survive fighting those guys in that fashion. Everyone's got that scrub that will always give them problems. (let say we pencil in baldomir as that). There's still other fighters that raise question about Judah still having it anymore. Whats worse is that when you look at the things that follow the other questionable/poor performances, the only factor in common is Judah and his mush mouth father. (not fighting other southpaws, or in other countries, or draining himself down)... Based on that .. i have to say no. Even if he wins, he still wont be an elite fighter. If he wins, more people will still be talking about Kahn (good night/bad night? glass jaw/ lucky shot?) despite Judah supposedly rededicating himself and now having sweet pea in his corner... That says a lot about where Judah ranks among his peers.
He's a good win for elite fighters, zab will never reach the potential he has. Khan really doesn't have to do much. Sit there with your hands up and let zab beat himself. I'd give sweet pea a better chance.