How? He landed the bigger punches but was consistently outscored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
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How? He landed the bigger punches but was consistently outscored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
"I thought he was doing a pretty good job," Taylor said. "I knew it was a close fight, but I guess he won the last couple of rounds. He's a strong fighter, and I give him a lot of credit." That's taylors words from espn so even he doesn't seem to have a problem with the outcome.
Since one did landing on gloves count as scoring...? I think its time to get some younger judges in there. All of them seem to be senior citizens..Quote:
Originally Posted by bikersk
Taylor said twice that he thought he won the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Taylor was close to tears at the end of his Q & A with Merchant. He was being a gentlemen but his voice and lips were starting to quiver.
Oh did he really, well never mind the comment than because I was at a bar watching this with a freaking band playing, so I couldn't really hear much. Well I still think there is no way taylor won, and from what I have read most agree, all the judges thought pavlik won(and I will agree that by itself don't mean much),but espn and the associated press had pavlik also winning, wouldn't there be more disparity in opinions if taylor truly got robbed??? Also once again pavlik threw twice as many punches almost, landed I don't know 70 or 80% more and don't say taylor blocked with his gloves, cause kelly did that to half of taylors punches. And again kelly certainly looked much fresher and better by the end of the fight where as taylor had a tumor starting to grow on his eye.
I scored it 115-113 to Pavlik.
Had it 3-3 after 6 but I thought Kelly won 4 of the last 6 to take out the decision. He definitely had Taylor hanging on in the last couple.
But credit to Taylor for going back to the drawing board and coming up with a good plan. Both guys fought well tonight and should be proud of their efforts.
Far more shocking was the judge who scored the Mijares fight 120-108 for Navarro...
Seriously, could it be possible that the judge didn't know which guy was which? This is boxing after all...
Either that or he was paid off and was just too stupid to even bother to make his card look believable - the muppet just thought 'oh well, this guy has got to win so I'm giving him every round'
That guy should never be allowed to attend any fights in the future, let alone judge one...
Close fight. Could have gone either way. No way was that a robbery; unless you are a Taylor fanboy, that would have called it for Taylor no matter what happened.
I am very upset at this decision. It makes me dislike Pavlik personally, even though he didn't do anything wrong. From now on I will probably root against Pavlik no matter who he fights. Which is too bad, because he comes across as a fairly humble and down to earth person.
I don't want to watch this fight again because I know I will see it the same way. I thought Taylor fought excellent tonight, in fact I've never seen him fight a more controlled fight. His jab was beautiful, he was confident, precise, kept his hands low and still managed to slip punches with ease.
With how confident he looked in the ring tonight I would have never guessed he was fighting a guy who KO'd him the previous fight. The decision tonight is very disappointing, as this would have made a fantastic trilogy. I am very disappointed in the scoring.
man.. if you didnt even watch the fight then dont make comments like i think there is no way taylor won the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Cortez The Killer has officially been added to my list of friends. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Cortez The Killer
Yeah - I don't know how people can call a close fight a robbery.
It's one of the quirks of boxing that we have an imperfect scoring system - so when you have a close fight (and I don't know how anybody could call this fight anything other than close) it could go either way.
Look at ESPN.com
Dan Rafael scored it 114-114
Mulvaney had it 116-112 Taylor
Darius Ortiz had it 115-113 Pavlik, like I had it.
Close fight, credit to both guys - what is there to moan about?
Never thought I'D say it either, but, it was either a DRAW (which i would've been satisfied with) or TAYLOR WON THAT FIGHT .... I think one judge had it 117-111, CRAZY..... Taylor CONSTANTLY landed harder shots and round 1 was debatable and could've gone either way.. I thought Taylor fought PERFECTLY in rounds 2 and 3, and did some real damage with punches in the middle of the fight.. It was obvious he faded in the last two rounds, but that did not stop him from landing a few punches..Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla
I thought Pavlik GENERALLY (at times he did not) looked sloppy, even when he was throwing straight punches.. He landed VERY few right hand straights, which were the difference in the first fight..
JERMAIN constantly moved away from the ropes (very impressed) and did not show fatigue until late round 10, 11, 12.. I thought Jermain fought a perfect fight, with the exception of the the last 2 rounds, and a minute or two in the previous rounds where he had lull's in activity..
The ONLY way i could see this fight going to Pavlik is if it was a title fight.. because i do admit it was 'questionable' if Jermain hurt Kelly enough to take the TITLE from him, but this was a non-title fight, leaving all of the champion/contender bias out of it.. I REALLY felt Jermain did hurt Kelly constantly, and did enough to win this fight.
Jermain completely through Kelly out of what he was normally used to doing, and it seemed Kelly was desperate to find an answer to land big shots on Taylor.. At one point during the one minute between rounds, Jack said to Kelly, "Listen up" and Kelly replied, "I'm all ears".. I took this as Kelly saying, TELL ME what to do to win this fight, because i'm not connecting like i'm used to.. I really think that those words tell a lot from Kelly.. To his defense, he never 'looked' desperate, or fought desperate, but besides his JAB, and a few crosses here and there, he looked innefective.. His jab and short punches won him the fight, and were enough to swell up the eye of JT..
Thank goodness you quoted the edited version where I removed all the f-bombs! Completely different than the original where I was still venting ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla
Rep'd you Cortez..Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez The Killer
I felt EXACTLY the same way.. Taylor's defense i thought looked TERRIFIC early on, and besides getting caught a few times being lazy, he closed it out defensively pretty well also.. He looked very confident, and he kept coming with this big right hands constantly throughout the fight.. Even though Kelly was pressuring him and walking forward, i thought Jermain did a GREAT JOB of jabbing his way back to the middle of the ring BACKING Kelly up.. I mean GOD DAMN he did that the whole fucking fight.. The only time he looked in trouble was (i think the first round) when he got hit with a flush right hand and got dazed a bit early on.. besides that i didn't feel Kelly landed a significant punch that did damage, besides the accumulation of jabs..
I also, am very dissapointed, as i would've LOVED to have seen a third fight.. Jermain fought a near flawless fight, and i really think he improved a ridiculous amount from the first fight.. very controlled, very disciplined.. sad to see the decision the way it went.
brilliant...Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33
UUUUM when did I ever say I didn't watch the fight??? It equates to watching the fight at home with the sound off, but except silence there is loud music playing!!! And yes I don't think there is a chance in hell taylor won, just reapeating and stating that he got robbed doesn't make it so. Explaing away the disparity in punchstats, all the judges and espen and ap having it for pavlik, and then on top of all that look at pavlik's face and then taylors and then with a straight face tell me that taylor got robbed, just because a fight is close doesn't make it a robbery. You saw the fight differently than I did but there is a big difference between a close fight and a robbery, I mean if this was a robbery then we could call half the fights in history robberies!Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLuke
Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
WRONG
one judge on espn had it a draw, one for taylor, one for pavlik.. So, no, they did NOT have it for Pavlik..
As far as i know, judging the condition of boxers faces is not part of the criteria of judging.. Taylor always swells up, so i wasn't surprised that he did.
At least say something of some substance, like Pavlik outjabbed Taylor.. Pavlik won the fight on the basis of his jab, punches thrown, and short punches.. If you would've heard that before the fight you probably would've laughed..
The fact that that is how Taylor lost to Kelly Pavlik, the KO artist, the undefeated middleweight champ with 29 of 32 wins by KO is saying something in and of itself..
Make a post with some substance instead of saying that ESPN had it for Pavlik, when they did NOT.
actually check your crap... all the judges from espn dont have it for pavlick. one has it draw. one for taylor and one for pavlick.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Ok so Taylor's right eye was closed and his left was swollen. Punches were landing and hard consistently throughout the entire fight. I agree that Taylor's defence was good but it is a 10 MUST system someone has to win the round and Pavlik threw more and landed more. So he wins the fight. I like Taylor and Pavlik I have no leaning either way, I just don't see Taylor winning sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLuke
Rp I stand corrected I looked at not the epsn article they have on it but the round by round and yes one had it a draw and the others one a piece for each fighter. I know the look of a fighter doesn't really matter since one punch can often times rip a cut open in a boxers eyes, but that was just in reply to people saying that pavlik really didn't land anything significant throughout the fight and that taylor blocked all those punches, if that bulge was caused by insignificant punches than what would a hard punch done to taylors eye? I already mentioned the disparity in punchstats but nobody even seems to aknowledge those. Basically my problem is not with people thinking that taylor won the fight, I've myself thought fighters won a fight when they didn't on judges' scorecards, my problem lies with people calling this a robbery!! That's that
Right, someone needs to get 10 points, but with Pavlik throwing a lot of punches, and not landing at a super high percentage, and Taylor throwing the more damaging punches, the judges can score on who is hurting the other fighter more.. That is no secret..Quote:
Originally Posted by bikersk
If you're gonna score a round 10-9 for someone basing it on output and connection rate, then you assume that they didn't get hit with many punches during the round, and that they clearly outlanded the other fighter throughout the round.. That was not the case with Taylor flurrying and landing looping right hands to the side of Kelly's head clean.
I personally had the fight a draw and I was expecting a late stoppage or close decision win for Pavlik. I knew going in that Taylor would make the fight difficult for him, and that he did. Flash does not always win fights though and Pavlik stuck to his game plan and did his thing. Yes Pavlik is a KO artist, but Taylor fought smart and did not give him the chance. Pavlik took what was given to him. I would not have been disappointed if Taylor won either, but to call this fight a robbery is just way too out there for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33
Taylor was flashier, threw some great combos, but Pavlik threw and landed more punches and won many rounds for simply being busier and being consistent.
nah, i hear you dude.. as far as Pavlik not landing 'significant' punches, i agree in the sense of considering the way Taylor was fighting.. If Pavlik was landing jabs and short punches the whole fight (which he did), and his opponent was not returning with much, then i'd say an easy UD for Pavlik.. But Taylor was CLEARLY landing harder punches, and he connected with a number of them.. It was not like Taylor wasn't active throughout those rounds either.. There were several rounds where he fought for 3:00 of the round.. When you have a fighter landing 25 jabs, and the other fighter landing several punches that throw his opponent off balance, they sort of off-set each other, and it really depends on who is doing more damage and taking control of the fight.. Compared to the first fight, i didn't think Taylor was out of control nearly as much, and felt that he was very calm and collected and was firing at will.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
But that is the exact point i am making. Pavlik connected, that's why i mentioned the swollen eyes, the punches connected.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33
I FAIL TO SEE HOW KELLY LANDED MORE PUNCHES. HE THREW MORE YES. BUT HE DIDNT LAND MORE.Quote:
Originally Posted by bikersk
Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33
Yes taylor did seem to be much more calm and collected this time around then he was in the first fight, though there were moments when I thought he was losing it, I swear I think I saw him jump of the ground at one point while throwing a wide looping hook. If kellys jabs were pity paty jabs and the disparity in the punches wasn't as big as it is I would agree, but kellys jabs in itself are damaging punches I think, and I didn't feel as though taylors punches were really that much more damaging to kelly. I guess greater minds have disagreed and like I said no probelm in thinking taylor won, but let's not call this a robbery when it really was just a close fight. Even if I did think taylor won I wouldn't feel to sorry for him because there were times when I thought he was on the good end of a bad decision.
Dibella
""I'm not arguing with the scorecards. It could have gone either way. I think the other guy [Pavlik] is a big, strong monster and Jermain was trying to box to a win, and I think he came damn close. I thought he pulled it out, but he has nothing to be ashamed of. This is not the kind of fight you argue about. It's the kind of fight you appreciate."
Ozell Nelson,
"I think tonight speaks for itself. I thought I did a pretty good job, but we came up short."
Even Taylor's own camp do not consider the fight to be a robbery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez The Killer
I didn't even bother reading further than this as I see things exactly the same way. I think the problem is, people probably judged this fight with the result of the first fight in mind... When the fact is if this had been the first time they met, I think most(even though who saw Pavlik winning) tonight would have seen Taylor as the victor. I thought he clearly outboxed Pavlik in most rounds. Pavlik looked fairly crude overall, he landed some good shots but Taylor easily had the edge in power punches and used his jab far more effectively. I actually bet my friend who I went to see this fight with, that Pavlik was going to win, and when it was over, I told him he didn't owe me the money. I was sure Taylor would get the decision especially since HBO has shown to like him in the past. Sure wasn't the case tonight.
Well look at Taylor's face. Bleeding nose and 2 swollen eyes. How did that happen? Fuckin allergic reaction?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLuke
You bring up an interesting point but I still disagree. Forget the first fight and Pavlik tonight still fought Jermain tougher than any previous opponent. For the record, I thought Taylor deserved his wins over Hopkins and his draw with Wright.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Pavlik did look crude at times but he still landed a lot of hurtful shots, which is why Taylor's face looked so crude after the fight. Taylor was impressive early, but he simply lacked something, whether the skill, the stamina or the strength he needed to turn Pavlik back.
WTF?
I am very surprised that ANYONE could have Jermain Taylor WINNING the fight? That's just crazy. He gave away the last two rounds in a close fight. He LOST.
Here is a great write-up by Kevin Iole of Yahoo Sports. Both he and Dan Rafael of ESPN are reporting that Pavlik is going to the hospital to have both of his hands x-rayed. According to Iole, Pavlik was having stingers in both hands, and according to Rafael, Pavlik thinks he broke his right hand in the 7th round.
http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns
If you look at Taylor's history he has alot of close fights that have been debated often. Both bouts with Hopkins, Ronald Wright, even the bout with Cory Spinks. Each time he got away with the decision. Is anybody suprised he couldn't keep getting the benefit of the doubt at the scoring table forever.
Enjoyed the fight worth staying up for. For me Pavlik won it by 3 rds he outworked Taylor.
Sounds like sour grapes to me. It was a close fight, but Pavlik outworked and outlanded JT, period. It's JT's own fault for not throwing more punches. I don't buy this "Taylor landed the more significant punches" crap. He landed some hard punches, yes, but 2 hard punches does not beat 20 medium punches.
Some strange analysis occuring here. If Taylor won 117-111 as someone suggests thats 9 rounds to Taylor.
I missed those 9. He won a couple at best, shared a few 10-10. But he never won nine rounds. He was stuck behind Pavliks jab for most of the fight and out of every 3 minute rounds he had a few bursts lasting 20-30 seconds each. These bursts were never effective as they never at any stage have Pavlik in any sort of trouble.
Taylor seemed unwilling/incapable of taking any sort of risks as he knew from the previous fight he would get knocked out.
And you also had Taylor winning by a big margin in the 1st fight, and gave Taylor rounds that were clearly Pavlik's. So i cannot take your scoring seriously 116-112 are seriously kidding me ??Quote:
Originally Posted by ACEA
How can Compubox be off ?? ok i will admit it isn't 100 percent accurate, but it isn't that far off, Pavlik outworked Taylor and won end of, he landed more power shots and overall punches, saying Compubox is off to prove a point Taylor won is silly logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLuke
I wonder how all the people who scored this fight for Taylor scored Taylor/Hopkins 1 for Hopkins. In that fight, it was JT that let his hands go while Hopkins landed cleaner more effective blows. IMHO, Hopkins did that to Taylor to a much larger degree than Taylor did it to Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB