Pacman v Hamed

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by brucelee

Why?:confused: I'm a fan of Hamed..... He was really good. Luisito Espinosa would not have a chance against him but against Pacquaio he was simply inferior in defense and offense. I know you know why...do I need to explain? I suggest you watch his fights.

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Hamed was a good counterpuncher and i've seen him having a pretty solid defense, he relied on his reflexes 99 percent of the time but i was pretty sure his defense was pretty good since he started his career as they called a "fancy dan with knockout power" He looked pretty good defensively, he was knocked down by Alicea but he looked pretty good dodging punches in that fight. You think Pacquiao has a better defense then Hamed did? How so?

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Remember a decent Southpaw named Kevin Kelley ?? he scored 3 knockdowns on Naz because he countered Naz, now just imagine Pacquiao in Kelley's shoes Majesty. Just raising this question to give you something to think about, Naz had terrible balance and he could be countered. And Pacquiao is an underrated counter puncher he even countered a very good counter puncher like Marquez in there 2nd fight, and he is much faster and much more powerful than Kelley is.

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Hamed was already on the downside by the Kelly fight.

Hamed beat everyone he could he held every belt at 126lbs.

I think Pac would have won but by Barerra Hamed was a shadow.

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Memphis

That Hamed was far from his best.

Hamed by KO ;D

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Or maybe when Naz stepped up in opposition he was just made to look bad ever thought of that Memphis ?? because all of his previous fights before that one were impressive wins, Naz never really did face an elite opponent before the Barrera fight.

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Who else was there for him to fight at featherweight before he fought Barerra? Name more then one person :)

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And we are on about at anytime in Naz's career right ??

Juan Manuel Marquez
Guty Espadas Jr
Freddie Norwood
Erik Morales = He would have moved up easily.

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Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Majesty

Hamed was a good counterpuncher and i've seen him having a pretty solid defense, he relied on his reflexes 99 percent of the time but i was pretty sure his defense was pretty good since he started his career as they called a "fancy dan with knockout power" He looked pretty good defensively, he was knocked down by Alicea but he looked pretty good dodging punches in that fight. You think Pacquiao has a better defense then Hamed did? How so?

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Remember a decent Southpaw named Kevin Kelley ?? he scored 3 knockdowns on Naz because he countered Naz, now just imagine Pacquiao in Kelley's shoes Majesty. Just raising this question to give you something to think about, Naz had terrible balance and he could be countered. And Pacquiao is an underrated counter puncher he even countered a very good counter puncher like Marquez in there 2nd fight, and he is much faster and much more powerful than Kelley is.

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Hamed was already on the downside by the Kelly fight.

Hamed beat everyone he could he held every belt at 126lbs.

I think Pac would have won but by Barerra Hamed was a shadow.

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How could he be on the downside when he hadn't shown any sign's of it in previous fights ?? like i said don't you think it has something to do with Naz stepping up in class that made him look bad. Remember that was Naz's first fight in the USA.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

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Originally Posted by ICB

Remember a decent Southpaw named Kevin Kelley ?? he scored 3 knockdowns on Naz because he countered Naz, now just imagine Pacquiao in Kelley's shoes Majesty. Just raising this question to give you something to think about, Naz had terrible balance and he could be countered. And Pacquiao is an underrated counter puncher he even countered a very good counter puncher like Marquez in there 2nd fight, and he is much faster and much more powerful than Kelley is.

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Hamed was already on the downside by the Kelly fight.

Hamed beat everyone he could he held every belt at 126lbs.

I think Pac would have won but by Barerra Hamed was a shadow.

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How could he be on the downside when he hadn't shown any sign's of it in previous fights ?? like i said don't you think it has something to do with Naz stepping up in class that made him look bad. Remember that was Naz's first fight in the USA.

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He was showing it. Remember the medina fight? Hamed seemed to run hot and cold, he would look unbeatable against johnson robinson and vulnerable against Medina and Alicea(for a second)

So there's no real way to tell when he was on the downside. But what was apparent was that he wasnt listening to Ingle in the Kelley fight.

[quote=ICB;549181]

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Originally Posted by Memphis

That Hamed was far from his best.

Hamed by KO ;D

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Or maybe when Naz stepped up in opposition he was just made to look bad ever thought of that Memphis ?? quote]

Nope, the prospect of Hamed getting hit more whilst facing stiffer opposition has never crossed my mind :rolleyes:

Thanks for reminding me.

I wouldnt see any comparison in Naz fighting Kelly and Naz fighting Pacman.Pacman wouldnt let Naz get him in the corner and try to counter him while he was there he would wont it in the midle of the ring.

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

Hamed was already on the downside by the Kelly fight.

Hamed beat everyone he could he held every belt at 126lbs.

I think Pac would have won but by Barerra Hamed was a shadow.

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How could he be on the downside when he hadn't shown any sign's of it in previous fights ?? like i said don't you think it has something to do with Naz stepping up in class that made him look bad. Remember that was Naz's first fight in the USA.

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He was showing it. Remember the medina fight? Hamed seemed to run hot and cold, he would look unbeatable against johnson robinson and vulnerable against Medina and Alicea(for a second)

So there's no real way to tell when he was on the downside. But what was apparent was that he wasnt listening to Ingle in the Kelley fight.

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Well i never thought Robinson was elite i know his story about winning the title on only 24 hours notice, i did watch the fight but i always thought Robinson skill wise was only goodish fighter despite the title defense he made. When i watched Robinson i never saw anything that stood out, a bit like Tom Johnson as well. And how can a fighter be on the downslide at 23 years old ?? its not like Naz was another Mike Tyson is it ?? he was physically and mentally ok, it was just down to his poor balance which made him too easy to counter when he lunged in and thats why he struggled against Kelley.

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Originally Posted by littlebif

I wouldnt see any comparison in Naz fighting Kelly and Naz fighting Pacman.Pacman wouldnt let Naz get him in the corner and try to counter him while he was there he would wont it in the midle of the ring.

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Im not saying the fight would go similar to the Kelley fight, i was using an example of how a goodish Southpaw like Kelley could counter Naz easily. And thats what Pacquiao would do because he has much quicker hands than Kelley, and he also has more power which would make him even more dangerous when countering.

[quote=Memphis;549194]

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Memphis

That Hamed was far from his best.

Hamed by KO ;D

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Or maybe when Naz stepped up in opposition he was just made to look bad ever thought of that Memphis ?? quote]

Nope, the prospect of Hamed getting hit more whilst facing stiffer opposition has never crossed my mind :rolleyes:

Thanks for reminding me.

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I wasn't being sarcastic Memphis.

I dont think Naz was on the slide i think its more he got cocky as he got older the started to try and bomb people out with 1 punch raver than boxing them and creating the holes in his opponents guard. Plus the fact he was'nt putting much effort in training cause he fought he didnt need to.

Its easy to look back retrospectively and say Hamed couldnt have been done, 23 years old?? WTF.

Anyone that followed him from early on could see that he was unravelling before your eyes, 23 or not.

Hamed peaked when he beat Robinson, he went downhill from there.

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Originally Posted by Memphis

Its easy to look back retrospectively and say Hamed couldnt have been done, 23 years old?? WTF.

Anyone that followed him from early on could see that he was unravelling before your eyes, 23 or not.

Hamed peaked when he beat Robinson, he went downhill from there.

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But how can someone just win there first title and all of a sudden just go downhill ?? and at that age. I just don't buy it sorry Memphis as soon as his stepped up in competition you could see his flaws, he always had terrible balance and was easy to counter end of, and thats why when Barrera fought him he kept Naz off balance all night with the jab, and because Naz has terrible balance anyway he couldn't get any power into his shots when he fought Barrera.

Im not asking you to buy anything. Anyone who watched Hamed from the start could see he was done, simple as. Nothing to do with age or wear and tear, it was his head that was the problem.

I think Hamed stopped listening to ingle.

it's very easy to lose your prime at that age.

Because at one point Hamed stopped relying on his boxing ability and threw it out the window for relying only on his power and its all he worked on. And if you don't work on the things he did your reflexes will fade.

it's like being able to dunk. And then taking the summer off of playing basketball. When you come back you will barely be able to dunk.

Now imagine being a boxer and neglecting your training in all but two aspects, making weight and relying on your power and talent to get you through. Now his talent got him far but he was far from the hamed of those golden years where he looked awesome.

And I agree with Memphis

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Originally Posted by Memphis

Im not asking you to buy anything. Anyone who watched Hamed from the start could see he was done, simple as. Nothing to do with age or wear and tear, it was his head that was the problem.

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I just think the flaws were always there to be taken advantage of and the more he stepped up in competition to more those flaws become apparent but thats just my two cents.

ice, stop saying naz had poor balance ;D

anyone throwing lunging leaping punches from all angles is gonna lose their footing.. try it ;D

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Originally Posted by Fenster

ice, stop saying naz had poor balance ;D

anyone throwing lunging leaping punches from all angles is gonna lose their footing.. try it ;D

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Roy Jones Jr didn't ;)

Hmm.. Roys shots were far more refined.. and accurate ;)

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Hmm.. Roys shots were far more refined.. and accurate ;)

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He still lunged in at times and threw punches from unorthodox angles, i mean the punch he KO'ed Griffin with was a lunging check left hook when have you ever seen that ;D

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Hmm.. Roys shots were far more refined.. and accurate ;)

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He still lunged in at times and threw punches from unorthodox angles, i mean the punch he KO'ed Griffin with was a lunging check left hook when have you ever seen that ;D

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watch one of Roy's earlier fights where he ko'd this guy jaca or something with a great left hook, when he missed he didn't look too good. But Roy picked his shots a lot better and he didn't really throw the same kind of off balance punches Hamed did, at least not in that style.

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Hmm.. Roys shots were far more refined.. and accurate ;)

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He still lunged in at times and threw punches from unorthodox angles, i mean the punch he KO'ed Griffin with was a lunging check left hook when have you ever seen that ;D

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watch one of Roy's earlier fights where he ko'd this guy jaca or something with a great left hook, when he missed he didn't look too good. But Roy picked his shots a lot better and he didn't really throw the same kind of off balance punches Hamed did, at least not in that style.

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You mean Jorge Vaca ?? that was a great KO he countered with a left hook and sparked him out i didn't see anything wrong with his balance. Of course when anyone misses Majesty they won't look good, but Naz balance was just poor even when he wasn't throwing those lunging shots.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by ICB

He still lunged in at times and threw punches from unorthodox angles, i mean the punch he KO'ed Griffin with was a lunging check left hook when have you ever seen that ;D

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watch one of Roy's earlier fights where he ko'd this guy jaca or something with a great left hook, when he missed he didn't look too good. But Roy picked his shots a lot better and he didn't really throw the same kind of off balance punches Hamed did, at least not in that style.

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You mean Jorge Vaca ?? that was a great KO he countered with a left hook and sparked him out i didn't see anything wrong with his balance. Of course when anyone misses Majesty they won't look good, but Naz balance was just poor even when he wasn't throwing those lunging shots.

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and because he as george foreman put it "throws punches from behind his back" but its a credit to how fast he was that he was able to land them like he did. Roy was more fundamental then Hamed was imo.

PAC will not bull rush Hamed, he will use lateral movement against Hamed just like what He did to Diaz. PAC will not get caught by a punch coming in like what happened to him in the Torrecampo fight.
This version of Pacquiao will POWER his way in a boxer puncher type fashion. Hamed will eat tons of Manila Ice before getting tagged by PAC's vaunted left straight. Hamed has tons of potential and should've showed it against Barrera if he really is that good.
PAC kayos Hamed in 10 rounds.

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Originally Posted by eagle

How the hell is this so close? This is Naseem Hamed we are talking of her. The guy who was humiliated the first time he fought a top guy? Do 50% of guys on here truly think Hamed would beat the living legend that is Manny Pac? The Manny Pac who has beaten the likes of Barrera, Morales and Marquez? The same Manny Pac who just put on one of the most brutal displays i've seen in a long time this weekend gone?

Come on guys i think a lot of u are looking at Nas thru rose coloured glasses.

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Hamed was already shot by the time he fought MAB - you have to consider how he would have done in his prime - around the time he fought Steve Robinson for example.

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Originally Posted by Shamrock

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Originally Posted by eagle

How the hell is this so close? This is Naseem Hamed we are talking of her. The guy who was humiliated the first time he fought a top guy? Do 50% of guys on here truly think Hamed would beat the living legend that is Manny Pac? The Manny Pac who has beaten the likes of Barrera, Morales and Marquez? The same Manny Pac who just put on one of the most brutal displays i've seen in a long time this weekend gone?

Come on guys i think a lot of u are looking at Nas thru rose coloured glasses.

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Hamed was already shot by the time he fought MAB - you have to consider how he would have done in his prime - around the time he fought Steve Robinson for example.

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Although I think Hamed was regressing as a fighter by the time he fought Barrera I think he made even more mistakes in his youth and Barrera would have beaten any version of Nas.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by brucelee

Why?:confused: I'm a fan of Hamed..... He was really good. Luisito Espinosa would not have a chance against him but against Pacquaio he was simply inferior in defense and offense. I know you know why...do I need to explain? I suggest you watch his fights.

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Hamed was a good counterpuncher and i've seen him having a pretty solid defense, he relied on his reflexes 99 percent of the time but i was pretty sure his defense was pretty good since he started his career as they called a "fancy dan with knockout power" He looked pretty good defensively, he was knocked down by Alicea but he looked pretty good dodging punches in that fight. You think Pacquiao has a better defense then Hamed did? How so?

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Remember a decent Southpaw named Kevin Kelley ?? he scored 3 knockdowns on Naz because he countered Naz, now just imagine Pacquiao in Kelley's shoes Majesty. Just raising this question to give you something to think about, Naz had terrible balance and he could be countered. And Pacquiao is an underrated counter puncher he even countered a very good counter puncher like Marquez in there 2nd fight, and he is much faster and much more powerful than Kelley is.

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I remember a fighter called Kelley.Was'nt he from Hartlepool??Im sure he was!

For me Hamed didnt have a plan B . PACMAN will go down as a great fighter , Hamed will be remembered for loosing to the first elite fighter he fought.
as for his" prime " fighting Steve Robinson . well he for me was not an elite fighter , so thats easy to look good against , i stick to my view of an easy blowout by PACMAN.

but opinions are wot make the site great ;D

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Originally Posted by Memphis

Its easy to look back retrospectively and say Hamed couldnt have been done, 23 years old?? WTF.

Anyone that followed him from early on could see that he was unravelling before your eyes, 23 or not.

Hamed peaked when he beat Robinson, he went downhill from there.

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Peaked against Robinson? Robinson was fucken 21-9 and no more than a decent euro fighter at best!

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Originally Posted by eagle

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Originally Posted by Memphis

Its easy to look back retrospectively and say Hamed couldnt have been done, 23 years old?? WTF.

Anyone that followed him from early on could see that he was unravelling before your eyes, 23 or not.

Hamed peaked when he beat Robinson, he went downhill from there.

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Peaked against Robinson? Robinson was fucken 21-9 and no more than a decent euro fighter at best!

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nice counter there eagle. by the way,how do you know that a boxer is at its peak? simply, Barrera exposed Naz. FACT. Against strong opposition, he will falter. You know why? Coz he's simply not mentally strong. Pac will demolish Naz coz Pac had fought better oppositions and have prevailed.:cool:

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by eagle

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Originally Posted by Memphis

Its easy to look back retrospectively and say Hamed couldnt have been done, 23 years old?? WTF.

Anyone that followed him from early on could see that he was unravelling before your eyes, 23 or not.

Hamed peaked when he beat Robinson, he went downhill from there.

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Peaked against Robinson? Robinson was fucken 21-9 and no more than a decent euro fighter at best!

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nice counter there eagle. by the way,how do you know that a boxer is at its peak? simply, Barrera exposed Naz. FACT. Against strong opposition, he will falter. You know why? Coz he's simply not mentally strong. Pac will demolish Naz coz Pac had fought better oppositions and have prevailed.:cool:

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I hate how they keep giving Naz excuses. Not as good after Ingle, lost focus, blah blah. Point is keeping focus is part of being a top fighter. Pac has the runs on the board against a number of ATG's. Naz fought one and got beat badly. Thats all the reasoning i need to pick Pacman against him.

I usually dont rate Pac as high as some but i still think he would have fucked up the little Prince.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by littlebif

I wouldnt see any comparison in Naz fighting Kelly and Naz fighting Pacman.Pacman wouldnt let Naz get him in the corner and try to counter him while he was there he would wont it in the midle of the ring.

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Im not saying the fight would go similar to the Kelley fight, i was using an example of how a goodish Southpaw like Kelley could counter Naz easily. And thats what Pacquiao would do because he has much quicker hands than Kelley, and he also has more power which would make him even more dangerous when countering.

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Not to split hairs But I don't see Pac with quicker hands than Kelly,A prime combo set Kelly was Pretty sharp & fluid....

But I Also think Pacquiao boxing would offset and take Hamed Wide over 12....:-X

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by littlebif

I wouldnt see any comparison in Naz fighting Kelly and Naz fighting Pacman.Pacman wouldnt let Naz get him in the corner and try to counter him while he was there he would wont it in the midle of the ring.

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Im not saying the fight would go similar to the Kelley fight, i was using an example of how a goodish Southpaw like Kelley could counter Naz easily. And thats what Pacquiao would do because he has much quicker hands than Kelley, and he also has more power which would make him even more dangerous when countering.

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Not to split hairs But I don't see Pac with quicker hands than Kelly,A prime combo set Kelly was Pretty sharp & fluid....

But I Also think Pacquiao boxing would offset and take Hamed Wide over 12....:-X

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Not to split hairs. I agree prime Kelley was very fast, but im not sure that he was still in his prime when he fought the Prince. He was def on the downhill run.

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Originally Posted by eagle

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by ICB

Im not saying the fight would go similar to the Kelley fight, i was using an example of how a goodish Southpaw like Kelley could counter Naz easily. And thats what Pacquiao would do because he has much quicker hands than Kelley, and he also has more power which would make him even more dangerous when countering.

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Not to split hairs But I don't see Pac with quicker hands than Kelly,A prime combo set Kelly was Pretty sharp & fluid....

But I Also think Pacquiao boxing would offset and take Hamed Wide over 12....:-X

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Not to split hairs. I agree prime Kelley was very fast, but I'm not sure that he was still in his prime when he fought the Prince. He was def on the downhill run.

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Yeh,Kelly was on the other side and fought not so smart vs. Hamed but he was At Peak a faster combo hitter than Pac.....To accommodate The ego's of Kelly & Hamed alone required an immense ring spread.....;D

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by eagle

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Not to split hairs But I don't see Pac with quicker hands than Kelly,A prime combo set Kelly was Pretty sharp & fluid....

But I Also think Pacquiao boxing would offset and take Hamed Wide over 12....:-X

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Not to split hairs. I agree prime Kelley was very fast, but I'm not sure that he was still in his prime when he fought the Prince. He was def on the downhill run.

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Yeh,Kelly was on the other side and fought not so smart vs. Hamed but he was At Peak a faster combo hitter than Pac.....To accommodate The ego's of Kelly & Hamed alone required an immense ring spread.....;D

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are you talking of Kelly who was knocked out by Espinosa? or was it Kevin Kelly? My memory is clouded right now. If that is the Kelly whom Espinosa KOed then definitely Naz won't win over Pac.

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by eagle

Not to split hairs. I agree prime Kelley was very fast, but I'm not sure that he was still in his prime when he fought the Prince. He was def on the downhill run.

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Yeh,Kelly was on the other side and fought not so smart vs. Hamed but he was At Peak a faster combo hitter than Pac.....To accommodate The ego's of Kelly & Hamed alone required an immense ring spread.....;D

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are you talking of Kelly who was knocked out by Espinosa? or was it Kevin Kelly? My memory is clouded right now. If that is the Kelly whom Espinosa KOed then definitely Naz won't win over Pac.

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Kennedy McKinney got blitzed by Luisito Espinosa.....Kelly won a wide 12 Vs. The Sharpshooter Louie Espinoza....;D

Somone said any version of MAB would have beaten any version of Naz ?

Remember MAB getting beat up by Jnr Jones ? I think that Naz when he was at his best had the style to hit and hurt Barrera and the fight would have been very different.

The split with Ingle and the obvious decline mentally and in his reflexes of Naz by the time he fought MAB are not excuses they are observations I have made from watching Naz from his first pro fight.

You cannot deny the power Naz possed or the problems the Ingle style caused fighters. The punch you don't see coming is the one that hurts and Hamed landed very hard punches just when they were least expected. I think the attitude Naz had )similar to Eubank until the last part of his career) made a lot of enemies amongst boxing fans and this affects their opinion of how good he was - and how could he could have been.

In no way am I direspecting MAB or Pac - both exceptional fighters who have graced the sport ;)

I think fighting in bursts with a high guard Pac would KO Naz in 3 or 4 rounds.

At the top level Naz was not hard to hit and got hurt by 2nd or 3rd rate punchers so Pac would destroy him.

I can see an arguement for either fighter.

Manny although decent etchnically is a come forward aggressive fighter.
Much of his defensive prowess is simply down to his stance.
Hamed,,sharing the Southpaw stance, could acpitalise on this to land with power.

Nas although using huge power, had terrible balance, so a consistent aggressor like Pac could crack him.

Either way.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Yeh,Kelly was on the other side and fought not so smart vs. Hamed but he was At Peak a faster combo hitter than Pac.....To accommodate The ego's of Kelly & Hamed alone required an immense ring spread.....;D

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are you talking of Kelly who was knocked out by Espinosa? or was it Kevin Kelly? My memory is clouded right now. If that is the Kelly whom Espinosa KOed then definitely Naz won't win over Pac.

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Kennedy McKinney got blitzed by Luisito Espinosa.....Kelly won a wide 12 Vs. The Sharpshooter Louie Espinoza....;D

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Thanks Spicoli for making me remember.:cool:

I think Naz off 1996 beats him.