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I said pound for pound i say the version Sugar Ray Leonard at the weight of 147 could beat the version of body snatch at 154. Kinda silly to make the fight anyhow both were prime at different weights. Also if Mike did not lose to Kalambay he would of had a fight with Duran or Hearns.
If they fought above i am not sure could go either way. Ray Leonard lost alot of prime years because of the eye thing not sure we got the best of him because of it but i feel he had the chin and the speed to outbox the body snatcher so yea i going with Sugar Ray Leonard to win the fight so yea i going with that.
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Originally Posted by Mr140
Ray Leonard was great but Prime 4 Prime at 154lbs Leonard wouldnt have lasted 10rds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Mike knocked out or stopped 8 fighters that had had either never been stopped b4 or after.
Boxing is so subjective i love it. But to suggest Leonard hangs with McCallum at 154 pr 160 is new to me. Don Curry all over again maybe earlier.
As Mike said:
"I leave the welterweights to Marvin, i mean he wont fight me he wont fight Graham. Its all his is good for"
To be fair no of those men was Sugar Ray Leonard and no way he stopping Sugar Ray Leonard only time he was stop was when he was 41.
Also lets not forget that Ray Leonard was able to capture the 175 pound title as well he was way better Don Curry could hope to be. Sugar Ray Leonard had to speed and the legs to beat the body snatcher by ud. To say that Mike would stop Ray Leonard kinda silly the man had a chin as good as his.
If he had fought and beat Hearns and Leonard he would unquestionably be better than Hagler and nearly any other fighter I can think of.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHFair enough, hard to argue with most of that. I feel Hagler's wins are better, but I concede that you can make a case for McCallum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Both ATG i just feel had Mike fought Tommy and Ray he would get his dues.
Us real fans know how great Mike was in every department ;D
SRL got the Light Heavyweight title but he actually wasn't a Light Heavyweight, he fought Donny LaLonde at catch-weight. SRL was 165 and Donny LaLonde was 167, thats why i believe the vacant Super Middleweight title was also up for grabs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
People always try this and it never holds water. How do you think Ruth and Cobb would do in todays baseball game. Or Nameth. They would get owned. Pavlik would beat Hearns, Manzon , McC and maybe Hagler. He would beat SRR and Lamatta. he would bury Harry Greb. He would have a tough time with Jones Jr. Hopkins in his prime , and Toney and he beats Calzaghe. PAVLIK HAS NOT EVEN HIT HIS PRIME YET. HE IS JUST GETTING INTO HIS PRIME.
sorry I meant Monzon. typo.
Sorry chief,No way.A bit of a role reversal in that one with Consumate thinker and ring master McCallum mixing more brawling in spots and Toney doing nice boxing.Great fight,Great match up but I had Toney edging it off strong finish.Certainly not a Robbery,let alone a fiasco on par with Holyfield/Lewis 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Pavlik would beat the man widely regarded as the best boxer of all time? I am well aware that SRR was not at his best at MW, but that's a ludicrous statement. What could you possible base that on, wins against Taylor and Miranda? That my friend is fanboyism at its highest level.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Imagine how good Robinson would be with today's training, nutrition etc. That works both ways you know.
Well i while say this about Mike is the only way to beat him is outbox him. I feel Sugar Ray Leonard could outbox and has the chin to go the distance with him alot of fight that did not happen with top guys and Mike in the 1980s but i think alot of it was just bad timing i think. Hagler and Leonard were at the end of there careers and primes when Mick was big. Mike i think if he did not lose to Kalambay would of got a fight with Duran or Hearns not sure which i remeber reading a articale or somthing on it.
Just because we were talking about this on another thread, I have to ask how you rate a power puncher??? Seems like your criteria changes from thread to threadQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Kelly Pavlik is a good puncher but he hasn't got the kind of 1 punch KO Julian Jackson has.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockJust because we were talking about this on another thread, I have to ask how you rate a power puncher??? Seems like your criteria changes from thread to threadQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Not taking a run at you, but most would consider Pavlik a great puncher with the ability to change a fight at anytime ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBKelly Pavlik is a good puncher but he hasn't got the kind of 1 punch KO Julian Jackson has.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockJust because we were talking about this on another thread, I have to ask how you rate a power puncher??? Seems like your criteria changes from thread to threadQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Not to mention Jackson gives up almost 4 inches in height and 2 inches in reach. I just dont see a Jackson Blowout against such a big middleweight that could starch him just as good, having all the physical advantages over him
Yea lets not forget that Pavlik has the physical advantges why i might take him over a Jackson or a Hearns because there chins were bad.
Oh yea he can turn a fight around with 1 punch, i don't disagree with that. He has the height advantage and he gets alot of leverage into his shots, aswell as a good jab to set up the right hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockNot taking a run at you, but most would consider Pavlik a great puncher with the ability to change a fight at anytime ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBKelly Pavlik is a good puncher but he hasn't got the kind of 1 punch KO Julian Jackson has.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Not to mention Jackson gives up almost 4 inches in height and 2 inches in reach. I just dont see a Jackson Blowout against such a big middleweight that could starch him just as good, having all the physical advantages over him
But IMO i think it would take him about 6 rounds to get Julian Jackson out of there, Julian Jackson doesn't need to turn a fight around. If Jackson basically hits you flush on the chin with 1 punch your KO'ed, i just think he would be able to get to Pavlik's chin earlier.
Pavlik has punishing power but in no way has one punch power.
Probably because his shots are straight and are not winged they dont travel far. Miranda, Lacy, Haye type fighters, one punch knock you into next week power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBKelly Pavlik is a good puncher but he hasn't got the kind of 1 punch KO Julian Jackson has.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockJust because we were talking about this on another thread, I have to ask how you rate a power puncher??? Seems like your criteria changes from thread to threadQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
agree, kelly has the best kinda punching power you can have which is natural, he doesnt have to use a lot of energy to ko people
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnkQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBKelly Pavlik is a good puncher but he hasn't got the kind of 1 punch KO Julian Jackson has.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
agree, kelly has the best kinda punching power you can have which is natural, he doesnt have to use a lot of energy to ko people
He has very good power but id say Haye has the best type power as if things are not going right he always has that equalizer.
Kelly doesnt, his power does tire and demoralize his opponents.
Same reason I feal Lewis would beat Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHPavlik would beat the man widely regarded as the best boxer of all time? I am well aware that SRR was not at his best at MW, but that's a ludicrous statement. What could you possible base that on, wins against Taylor and Miranda? That my friend is fanboyism at its highest level.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Imagine how good Robinson would be with today's training, nutrition etc. That works both ways you know.
And what reason is that? I'd give Lewis a much better shot of beating Ali than I would Pavlik against SRR.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314Same reason I feal Lewis would beat Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHPavlik would beat the man widely regarded as the best boxer of all time? I am well aware that SRR was not at his best at MW, but that's a ludicrous statement. What could you possible base that on, wins against Taylor and Miranda? That my friend is fanboyism at its highest level.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Imagine how good Robinson would be with today's training, nutrition etc. That works both ways you know.
It's hard to accurately measure a fighter when he is undefeated and at his peak. When a man has not been bested, when you have not seen his limits, you start thinking he has none, than he can't be bested.
What's important is that we are talking about it and that is something. The kid is good. Let's see how far he can go.
I normally like you as a poster but you can't be serious ? how many fights have you seen of Carlos Monzon ? the man was a beast and arguably the best Middleweight of all time. He is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise but he has the much better chin and i would say he is physically stronger than Kelly Pavlik aswell. And he would be forcing Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot and stop Pavlik late on.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Thomas Hearns has a suspect chin so Kelly Pavlik does have a chance, but i think its more likely Thomas Hearns lands his famous right hand. And lays out Kelly Pavlik inside of 3 rounds.
Marvin Hagler in his younger days was a great boxing/puncher, he could counter punch very well. But more importantly he was also very strong and his chin was out of this world. I think Marvin Hagler outboxes Kelly Pavlik and takes a decision or a late stoppage.
SRR ? you can't be serious he may be somewhat overrated at Middleweight, but he had excellent movement, great handspeed. And a granite chin he would lay out Kelly Pavlik inside of 8.
Jake Lamotta ? im not so sure of but Jake Lamotta did have a great chin and kept on coming, and was also physically very strong. But he did get hit too much for my liking but it would be a closely fought fight IMO.
RJJ ? just a tough time ? don't make me laugh Kelly Pavlik would get brutalized by a prime RJJ. RJJ is possibly one of the most talented fighters to have ever lived, and he was one of the quickest boxers P4P ever if not the quickest. Are you seriously trying to tell me this fight is even debatable ?
A young Bernard Hopkins is like Marvin Hagler in some ways, except i think he is a bit more of skilled pressure fighter than Marvin Hagler was. Plus a prime Bernard Hopkins has a great chin along with great boxing skills, and great workrate. He is far too skilled for Kelly Pavlik.
I would love to know how you think Kelly Pavlik beats Harry Greb, because there is no footage of Harry Greb not even one fight. So how can you judge this fight ?
James Toney vs Kelly Pavlik ? see James Toney vs Iran Barkley. Although Kelly Pavlik throws his punches straighter than Iran Barkey. Kelly Pavlik would still get countered all night long just like Iran Barkley did, who was a big strong powerful puncher like Kelly Pavlik was, and i see Kelly Pavlik getting a boxing lesson over 12 rounds.
Joe Calzaghe ? Pavlik would have a chance against Joe Calzaghe, because Joe Calzaghe can't seem to get away from straight right hands, but a prime Joe Calzaghe was faster and had much more power. It would be close but i feel Joe Calzaghe is a much better all round boxer and he would win a tough decision.
:appl:Good posting agree 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI normally like you as a poster but you can't be serious ? how many fights have you seen of Carlos Monzon ? the man was a beast and arguably the best Middleweight of all time. He is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise but he has the much better chin and i would say he is physically stronger than Kelly Pavlik aswell. And he would be forcing Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot and stop Pavlik late on.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Thomas Hearns has a suspect chin so Kelly Pavlik does have a chance, but i think its more likely Thomas Hearns lands his famous right hand. And lays out Kelly Pavlik inside of 3 rounds.
Marvin Hagler in his younger days was a great boxing/puncher, he could counter punch very well. But more importantly he was also very strong and his chin was out of this world. I think Marvin Hagler outboxes Kelly Pavlik and takes a decision or a late stoppage.
SRR ? you can't be serious he may be somewhat overrated at Middleweight, but he had excellent movement, great handspeed. And a granite chin he would lay out Kelly Pavlik inside of 8.
Jake Lamotta ? im not so sure of but Jake Lamotta did have a great chin and kept on coming, and was also physically very strong. But he did get hit too much for my liking but it would be a closely fought fight IMO.
RJJ ? just a tough time ? don't make me laugh Kelly Pavlik would get brutalized by a prime RJJ. RJJ is possibly one of the most talented fighters to have ever lived, and he was one of the quickest boxers P4P ever if not the quickest. Are you seriously trying to tell me this fight is even debatable ?
A young Bernard Hopkins is like Marvin Hagler in some ways, except i think he is a bit more of skilled pressure fighter than Marvin Hagler was. Plus a prime Bernard Hopkins has a great chin along with great boxing skills, and great workrate. He is far too skilled for Kelly Pavlik.
I would love to know how you think Kelly Pavlik beats Harry Greb, because there is no footage of Harry Greb not even one fight. So how can you judge this fight ?
James Toney vs Kelly Pavlik ? see James Toney vs Iran Barkley. Although Kelly Pavlik throws his punches straighter than Iran Barkey. Kelly Pavlik would still get countered all night long just like Iran Barkley did, who was a big strong powerful puncher like Kelly Pavlik was, and i see Kelly Pavlik getting a boxing lesson over 12 rounds.
Joe Calzaghe ? Pavlik would have a chance against Joe Calzaghe, because Joe Calzaghe can't seem to get away from straight right hands, but a prime Joe Calzaghe was faster and had much more power. It would be close but i feel Joe Calzaghe is a much better all round boxer and he would win a tough decision.
It is easy to overrate Kelly, as we do not know his true limits yet. Many of us also overrate some fighters of the past, I know I rate Hagler incredibly high on an ATG list, as I grew up in his era.
The difference is Hagler proved his mettle over a distinguished career while Pavlik has barely got his feet wet.
Pavlik certainly has the type of physical gifts where he could force a place for himself in history. The Taylor and upcoming Hopkins fight do not make him anywhere near great. If he passes the Hopkins test though this young, it will be a great learning tool for later fights. It would mean he has faced a multitude of styles and got past them all. I cannot think of better building blocks than that.
He still has to get by the old and wiley Hopkins first though. ;D We'll see what happens.
Wow we were talking about SRR. I thaught when you said the greatest p4p4 all time you were talking about the human windmill Harry Greb.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHAnd what reason is that? I'd give Lewis a much better shot of beating Ali than I would Pavlik against SRR.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314Same reason I feal Lewis would beat Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
You are nutts in taking Hearns over Pavlik. Hearns has a terrible chin. Monzon was a beast but he is very one sided coming in with his head in strait lines. You are underating Pavliks chin. He took seven plus shots from Taylor who has power and got up on a two count. I bet you think Honus Wagner could win the mvp agianst todays ball players or you probably think 1978 Dolphins would have a winning team today. In reality todays fightewrs are far faster , stronger, and healthier than ever. Ever take that into mind. I do think Calzaghe now at the tail end of his prime and Pavlik getting into his is a knockout win for Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI normally like you as a poster but you can't be serious ? how many fights have you seen of Carlos Monzon ? the man was a beast and arguably the best Middleweight of all time. He is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise but he has the much better chin and i would say he is physically stronger than Kelly Pavlik aswell. And he would be forcing Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot and stop Pavlik late on.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Thomas Hearns has a suspect chin so Kelly Pavlik does have a chance, but i think its more likely Thomas Hearns lands his famous right hand. And lays out Kelly Pavlik inside of 3 rounds.
Marvin Hagler in his younger days was a great boxing/puncher, he could counter punch very well. But more importantly he was also very strong and his chin was out of this world. I think Marvin Hagler outboxes Kelly Pavlik and takes a decision or a late stoppage.
SRR ? you can't be serious he may be somewhat overrated at Middleweight, but he had excellent movement, great handspeed. And a granite chin he would lay out Kelly Pavlik inside of 8.
Jake Lamotta ? im not so sure of but Jake Lamotta did have a great chin and kept on coming, and was also physically very strong. But he did get hit too much for my liking but it would be a closely fought fight IMO.
RJJ ? just a tough time ? don't make me laugh Kelly Pavlik would get brutalized by a prime RJJ. RJJ is possibly one of the most talented fighters to have ever lived, and he was one of the quickest boxers P4P ever if not the quickest. Are you seriously trying to tell me this fight is even debatable ?
A young Bernard Hopkins is like Marvin Hagler in some ways, except i think he is a bit more of skilled pressure fighter than Marvin Hagler was. Plus a prime Bernard Hopkins has a great chin along with great boxing skills, and great workrate. He is far too skilled for Kelly Pavlik.
I would love to know how you think Kelly Pavlik beats Harry Greb, because there is no footage of Harry Greb not even one fight. So how can you judge this fight ?
James Toney vs Kelly Pavlik ? see James Toney vs Iran Barkley. Although Kelly Pavlik throws his punches straighter than Iran Barkey. Kelly Pavlik would still get countered all night long just like Iran Barkley did, who was a big strong powerful puncher like Kelly Pavlik was, and i see Kelly Pavlik getting a boxing lesson over 12 rounds.
Joe Calzaghe ? Pavlik would have a chance against Joe Calzaghe, because Joe Calzaghe can't seem to get away from straight right hands, but a prime Joe Calzaghe was faster and had much more power. It would be close but i feel Joe Calzaghe is a much better all round boxer and he would win a tough decision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3QQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBI normally like you as a poster but you can't be serious ? how many fights have you seen of Carlos Monzon ? the man was a beast and arguably the best Middleweight of all time. He is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise but he has the much better chin and i would say he is physically stronger than Kelly Pavlik aswell. And he would be forcing Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot and stop Pavlik late on.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Thomas Hearns has a suspect chin so Kelly Pavlik does have a chance, but i think its more likely Thomas Hearns lands his famous right hand. And lays out Kelly Pavlik inside of 3 rounds.
Marvin Hagler in his younger days was a great boxing/puncher, he could counter punch very well. But more importantly he was also very strong and his chin was out of this world. I think Marvin Hagler outboxes Kelly Pavlik and takes a decision or a late stoppage.
SRR ? you can't be serious he may be somewhat overrated at Middleweight, but he had excellent movement, great handspeed. And a granite chin he would lay out Kelly Pavlik inside of 8.
Jake Lamotta ? im not so sure of but Jake Lamotta did have a great chin and kept on coming, and was also physically very strong. But he did get hit too much for my liking but it would be a closely fought fight IMO.
RJJ ? just a tough time ? don't make me laugh Kelly Pavlik would get brutalized by a prime RJJ. RJJ is possibly one of the most talented fighters to have ever lived, and he was one of the quickest boxers P4P ever if not the quickest. Are you seriously trying to tell me this fight is even debatable ?
A young Bernard Hopkins is like Marvin Hagler in some ways, except i think he is a bit more of skilled pressure fighter than Marvin Hagler was. Plus a prime Bernard Hopkins has a great chin along with great boxing skills, and great workrate. He is far too skilled for Kelly Pavlik.
I would love to know how you think Kelly Pavlik beats Harry Greb, because there is no footage of Harry Greb not even one fight. So how can you judge this fight ?
James Toney vs Kelly Pavlik ? see James Toney vs Iran Barkley. Although Kelly Pavlik throws his punches straighter than Iran Barkey. Kelly Pavlik would still get countered all night long just like Iran Barkley did, who was a big strong powerful puncher like Kelly Pavlik was, and i see Kelly Pavlik getting a boxing lesson over 12 rounds.
Joe Calzaghe ? Pavlik would have a chance against Joe Calzaghe, because Joe Calzaghe can't seem to get away from straight right hands, but a prime Joe Calzaghe was faster and had much more power. It would be close but i feel Joe Calzaghe is a much better all round boxer and he would win a tough decision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFItT...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO2dT...eature=related
Wow I sure could . Ever hear of youtube? Its really cool.I dont the bandwagon of yesterdays golden oldie fighters. I think Pavlik could beat SRR , Greb , Monzon , Calzaghe , and McC . I do think Roy Jones in his prime beats him at 160 , So does a prime Hopkins and Toney. On the other hand he only needs one shot to hurt them. And sorry I think Miranda hits harder than Hearns who was a natural 147- 154. I think with the motor city cobras suspect chin Pavlik puts him out inside of 5. He and the other great from Brockton Mass will try to trade and who ever hits the hardest and lands the better shots wins. Pavlik has a reach like a 747. He is fukin huge for 160. He is 6'2.5. You are under rating him. He is great. He is not in his prime yet but by this time next year when he beats Joe Calzaghe by knockout and knocks out Abraham you will have a different opinion. I hope . I would like to see him step up and fight Dawson or Tarver next year. But who knows. He has the size and power.
Thomas Hearns did have a weak chin but he was a very quick starter, and Kelly Pavlik isn't and he gets caught early take Zuniga, Taylor 1, as examples. And if Thomas Hearns lands that famous right hand and puts Kelly Pavlik down, theres no way in hell Kelly Pavlik would survive. I give Kelly Pavlik a chance but i think theres a greater chance Thomas Hearns finishes Kelly Pavlik off quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314You are nutts in taking Hearns over Pavlik. Hearns has a terrible chin. Monzon was a beast but he is very one sided coming in with his head in strait lines. You are underating Pavliks chin. He took seven plus shots from Taylor who has power and got up on a two count. I bet you think Honus Wagner could win the mvp agianst todays ball players or you probably think 1978 Dolphins would have a winning team today. In reality todays fightewrs are far faster , stronger, and healthier than ever. Ever take that into mind. I do think Calzaghe now at the tail end of his prime and Pavlik getting into his is a knockout win for Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI normally like you as a poster but you can't be serious ? how many fights have you seen of Carlos Monzon ? the man was a beast and arguably the best Middleweight of all time. He is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise but he has the much better chin and i would say he is physically stronger than Kelly Pavlik aswell. And he would be forcing Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot and stop Pavlik late on.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Thomas Hearns has a suspect chin so Kelly Pavlik does have a chance, but i think its more likely Thomas Hearns lands his famous right hand. And lays out Kelly Pavlik inside of 3 rounds.
Marvin Hagler in his younger days was a great boxing/puncher, he could counter punch very well. But more importantly he was also very strong and his chin was out of this world. I think Marvin Hagler outboxes Kelly Pavlik and takes a decision or a late stoppage.
SRR ? you can't be serious he may be somewhat overrated at Middleweight, but he had excellent movement, great handspeed. And a granite chin he would lay out Kelly Pavlik inside of 8.
Jake Lamotta ? im not so sure of but Jake Lamotta did have a great chin and kept on coming, and was also physically very strong. But he did get hit too much for my liking but it would be a closely fought fight IMO.
RJJ ? just a tough time ? don't make me laugh Kelly Pavlik would get brutalized by a prime RJJ. RJJ is possibly one of the most talented fighters to have ever lived, and he was one of the quickest boxers P4P ever if not the quickest. Are you seriously trying to tell me this fight is even debatable ?
A young Bernard Hopkins is like Marvin Hagler in some ways, except i think he is a bit more of skilled pressure fighter than Marvin Hagler was. Plus a prime Bernard Hopkins has a great chin along with great boxing skills, and great workrate. He is far too skilled for Kelly Pavlik.
I would love to know how you think Kelly Pavlik beats Harry Greb, because there is no footage of Harry Greb not even one fight. So how can you judge this fight ?
James Toney vs Kelly Pavlik ? see James Toney vs Iran Barkley. Although Kelly Pavlik throws his punches straighter than Iran Barkey. Kelly Pavlik would still get countered all night long just like Iran Barkley did, who was a big strong powerful puncher like Kelly Pavlik was, and i see Kelly Pavlik getting a boxing lesson over 12 rounds.
Joe Calzaghe ? Pavlik would have a chance against Joe Calzaghe, because Joe Calzaghe can't seem to get away from straight right hands, but a prime Joe Calzaghe was faster and had much more power. It would be close but i feel Joe Calzaghe is a much better all round boxer and he would win a tough decision.
Carlos Monzon as i said is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise, because they both use the jab/right hand combo. There both big and there both strong, but Carlos Monzon is physically stronger and has a much better chin, to my knowledge Carlos Monzon was only down once in 100 fights, and that was against Rodrigo Valdez in there 2nd fight when he was 35. I think its very plausible to think Carlos Monzon would put Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot, and wear Kelly Pavlik down and stop him late on.
Jermain Taylor is no puncher and he had Kelly Pavlik stumbling around the ring like a drunk man, it was a great comeback from Kelly Pavlik and a great performance. But imagine Kelly Pavlik in that kind of trouble against Thomas Hearns ? or Carlos Monzon ? do you think they would let Kelly Pavlik survive ? hell no.
As for your last comments im not american i don't know about the Dolphins and etc, and you say boxers are stronger and faster, which maybe true in some cases but not in all cases. Take the Heavyweights for example.
I said footage of him fighting not footage of him working out :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3QQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBI normally like you as a poster but you can't be serious ? how many fights have you seen of Carlos Monzon ? the man was a beast and arguably the best Middleweight of all time. He is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise but he has the much better chin and i would say he is physically stronger than Kelly Pavlik aswell. And he would be forcing Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot and stop Pavlik late on.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Thomas Hearns has a suspect chin so Kelly Pavlik does have a chance, but i think its more likely Thomas Hearns lands his famous right hand. And lays out Kelly Pavlik inside of 3 rounds.
Marvin Hagler in his younger days was a great boxing/puncher, he could counter punch very well. But more importantly he was also very strong and his chin was out of this world. I think Marvin Hagler outboxes Kelly Pavlik and takes a decision or a late stoppage.
SRR ? you can't be serious he may be somewhat overrated at Middleweight, but he had excellent movement, great handspeed. And a granite chin he would lay out Kelly Pavlik inside of 8.
Jake Lamotta ? im not so sure of but Jake Lamotta did have a great chin and kept on coming, and was also physically very strong. But he did get hit too much for my liking but it would be a closely fought fight IMO.
RJJ ? just a tough time ? don't make me laugh Kelly Pavlik would get brutalized by a prime RJJ. RJJ is possibly one of the most talented fighters to have ever lived, and he was one of the quickest boxers P4P ever if not the quickest. Are you seriously trying to tell me this fight is even debatable ?
A young Bernard Hopkins is like Marvin Hagler in some ways, except i think he is a bit more of skilled pressure fighter than Marvin Hagler was. Plus a prime Bernard Hopkins has a great chin along with great boxing skills, and great workrate. He is far too skilled for Kelly Pavlik.
I would love to know how you think Kelly Pavlik beats Harry Greb, because there is no footage of Harry Greb not even one fight. So how can you judge this fight ?
James Toney vs Kelly Pavlik ? see James Toney vs Iran Barkley. Although Kelly Pavlik throws his punches straighter than Iran Barkey. Kelly Pavlik would still get countered all night long just like Iran Barkley did, who was a big strong powerful puncher like Kelly Pavlik was, and i see Kelly Pavlik getting a boxing lesson over 12 rounds.
Joe Calzaghe ? Pavlik would have a chance against Joe Calzaghe, because Joe Calzaghe can't seem to get away from straight right hands, but a prime Joe Calzaghe was faster and had much more power. It would be close but i feel Joe Calzaghe is a much better all round boxer and he would win a tough decision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFItT...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO2dT...eature=related
Wow I sure could . Ever hear of youtube? Its really cool.I dont the bandwagon of yesterdays golden oldie fighters. I think Pavlik could beat SRR , Greb , Monzon , Calzaghe , and McC . I do think Roy Jones in his prime beats him at 160 , So does a prime Hopkins and Toney. On the other hand he only needs one shot to hurt them. And sorry I think Miranda hits harder than Hearns who was a natural 147- 154. I think with the motor city cobras suspect chin Pavlik puts him out inside of 5. He and the other great from Brockton Mass will try to trade and who ever hits the hardest and lands the better shots wins. Pavlik has a reach like a 747. He is fukin huge for 160. He is 6'2.5. You are under rating him. He is great. He is not in his prime yet but by this time next year when he beats Joe Calzaghe by knockout and knocks out Abraham you will have a different opinion. I hope . I would like to see him step up and fight Dawson or Tarver next year. But who knows. He has the size and power.
I already know about that footage thats old news.
Edison Miranda hits harder than Thomas Hearns are you frigging kidding me ? wow you are a deluded Kelly Pavlik fan. I think you need reminding.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=woWSl5PBVAs
Hearns had a shaky chin not one of fine china...The only real upset KO he suffered was from Barkley and that was past his best and at ME...The one by Uriah Grant was when he was waaaaay past is best and at CW...Tommy had been a pro 22 yrs by then as well....The only prime KO's he suffered were against Hagler who beat the shit out of almost everyone and by Leonard...and by the time the KO from Leonard happened Tonmmy was exausted......Kelly has a decent chin of not Taylor is no Hearns in the power dept./..Kelly does not have the wiskers of Hagler or a prime Leonard...Just the fact he has been rocked before in his prime and put on the canvas proves that....Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314You are nutts in taking Hearns over Pavlik. Hearns has a terrible chin. Monzon was a beast but he is very one sided coming in with his head in strait lines. You are underating Pavliks chin. He took seven plus shots from Taylor who has power and got up on a two count. I bet you think Honus Wagner could win the mvp agianst todays ball players or you probably think 1978 Dolphins would have a winning team today. In reality todays fightewrs are far faster , stronger, and healthier than ever. Ever take that into mind. I do think Calzaghe now at the tail end of his prime and Pavlik getting into his is a knockout win for Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI normally like you as a poster but you can't be serious ? how many fights have you seen of Carlos Monzon ? the man was a beast and arguably the best Middleweight of all time. He is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise but he has the much better chin and i would say he is physically stronger than Kelly Pavlik aswell. And he would be forcing Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot and stop Pavlik late on.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Thomas Hearns has a suspect chin so Kelly Pavlik does have a chance, but i think its more likely Thomas Hearns lands his famous right hand. And lays out Kelly Pavlik inside of 3 rounds.
Marvin Hagler in his younger days was a great boxing/puncher, he could counter punch very well. But more importantly he was also very strong and his chin was out of this world. I think Marvin Hagler outboxes Kelly Pavlik and takes a decision or a late stoppage.
SRR ? you can't be serious he may be somewhat overrated at Middleweight, but he had excellent movement, great handspeed. And a granite chin he would lay out Kelly Pavlik inside of 8.
Jake Lamotta ? im not so sure of but Jake Lamotta did have a great chin and kept on coming, and was also physically very strong. But he did get hit too much for my liking but it would be a closely fought fight IMO.
RJJ ? just a tough time ? don't make me laugh Kelly Pavlik would get brutalized by a prime RJJ. RJJ is possibly one of the most talented fighters to have ever lived, and he was one of the quickest boxers P4P ever if not the quickest. Are you seriously trying to tell me this fight is even debatable ?
A young Bernard Hopkins is like Marvin Hagler in some ways, except i think he is a bit more of skilled pressure fighter than Marvin Hagler was. Plus a prime Bernard Hopkins has a great chin along with great boxing skills, and great workrate. He is far too skilled for Kelly Pavlik.
I would love to know how you think Kelly Pavlik beats Harry Greb, because there is no footage of Harry Greb not even one fight. So how can you judge this fight ?
James Toney vs Kelly Pavlik ? see James Toney vs Iran Barkley. Although Kelly Pavlik throws his punches straighter than Iran Barkey. Kelly Pavlik would still get countered all night long just like Iran Barkley did, who was a big strong powerful puncher like Kelly Pavlik was, and i see Kelly Pavlik getting a boxing lesson over 12 rounds.
Joe Calzaghe ? Pavlik would have a chance against Joe Calzaghe, because Joe Calzaghe can't seem to get away from straight right hands, but a prime Joe Calzaghe was faster and had much more power. It would be close but i feel Joe Calzaghe is a much better all round boxer and he would win a tough decision.
Tell me a fighter today faster, stronger and healthier then a prime Ali, or Leonard because of the times?.......What featherweight today do you pick over Salvador Sanchez?..Who hits harder then Foreman in his prime?..That statement means nothing when it comes to fighting.......The guy chopping wood and running in the woods for cardio is just as if not stronger then the guy at the gym using machines...
You can only move around a 20X20 ring so fast regardless of training methods....muscles and supplements do not make you hit harder...
all the modern methods are great when it comes to training to run or throw a football.....
Daxx i slightly remember the Uriah Grant fight i believe Thomas Hearns broke his ankle ? or injured it im not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnHearns had a shaky chin not one of fine china...The only real upset KO he suffered was from Barkley and that was past his best and at ME...The one by Uriah Grant was when he was waaaaay past is best and at CW...Tommy had been a pro 22 yrs by then as well....The only prime KO's he suffered were against Hagler who beat the shit out of almost everyone and by Leonard...and by the time the KO from Leonard happened Tonmmy was exausted......Kelly has a decent chin of not Taylor is no Hearns in the power dept./..Kelly does not have the wiskers of Hagler or a prime Leonard...Just the fact he has been rocked before in his prime and put on the canvas proves that....Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314You are nutts in taking Hearns over Pavlik. Hearns has a terrible chin. Monzon was a beast but he is very one sided coming in with his head in strait lines. You are underating Pavliks chin. He took seven plus shots from Taylor who has power and got up on a two count. I bet you think Honus Wagner could win the mvp agianst todays ball players or you probably think 1978 Dolphins would have a winning team today. In reality todays fightewrs are far faster , stronger, and healthier than ever. Ever take that into mind. I do think Calzaghe now at the tail end of his prime and Pavlik getting into his is a knockout win for Pavlik.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Tell me a fighter today faster, stronger and healthier then a prime Ali, or Leonard because of the times?.......What featherweight today do you pick over Salvador Sanchez?..Who hits harder then Foreman in his prime?..That statement means nothing when it comes to fighting.......The guy chopping wood and running in the woods for cardio is just as if not stronger then the guy at the gym using machines...
You can only move around a 20X20 ring so fast regardless of training methods....muscles and supplements do not make you hit harder...
all the modern methods are great when it comes to training to run or throw a football.....
Tommy had a longer reach then kelly does...Pavlik has only an inch and a hlf height advantageQuote:
Originally Posted by southakron314http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3QQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBI normally like you as a poster but you can't be serious ? how many fights have you seen of Carlos Monzon ? the man was a beast and arguably the best Middleweight of all time. He is similar to Kelly Pavlik style wise but he has the much better chin and i would say he is physically stronger than Kelly Pavlik aswell. And he would be forcing Kelly Pavlik on the backfoot and stop Pavlik late on.Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Thomas Hearns has a suspect chin so Kelly Pavlik does have a chance, but i think its more likely Thomas Hearns lands his famous right hand. And lays out Kelly Pavlik inside of 3 rounds.
Marvin Hagler in his younger days was a great boxing/puncher, he could counter punch very well. But more importantly he was also very strong and his chin was out of this world. I think Marvin Hagler outboxes Kelly Pavlik and takes a decision or a late stoppage.
SRR ? you can't be serious he may be somewhat overrated at Middleweight, but he had excellent movement, great handspeed. And a granite chin he would lay out Kelly Pavlik inside of 8.
Jake Lamotta ? im not so sure of but Jake Lamotta did have a great chin and kept on coming, and was also physically very strong. But he did get hit too much for my liking but it would be a closely fought fight IMO.
RJJ ? just a tough time ? don't make me laugh Kelly Pavlik would get brutalized by a prime RJJ. RJJ is possibly one of the most talented fighters to have ever lived, and he was one of the quickest boxers P4P ever if not the quickest. Are you seriously trying to tell me this fight is even debatable ?
A young Bernard Hopkins is like Marvin Hagler in some ways, except i think he is a bit more of skilled pressure fighter than Marvin Hagler was. Plus a prime Bernard Hopkins has a great chin along with great boxing skills, and great workrate. He is far too skilled for Kelly Pavlik.
I would love to know how you think Kelly Pavlik beats Harry Greb, because there is no footage of Harry Greb not even one fight. So how can you judge this fight ?
James Toney vs Kelly Pavlik ? see James Toney vs Iran Barkley. Although Kelly Pavlik throws his punches straighter than Iran Barkey. Kelly Pavlik would still get countered all night long just like Iran Barkley did, who was a big strong powerful puncher like Kelly Pavlik was, and i see Kelly Pavlik getting a boxing lesson over 12 rounds.
Joe Calzaghe ? Pavlik would have a chance against Joe Calzaghe, because Joe Calzaghe can't seem to get away from straight right hands, but a prime Joe Calzaghe was faster and had much more power. It would be close but i feel Joe Calzaghe is a much better all round boxer and he would win a tough decision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFItT...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO2dT...eature=related
Wow I sure could . Ever hear of youtube? Its really cool.I dont the bandwagon of yesterdays golden oldie fighters. I think Pavlik could beat SRR , Greb , Monzon , Calzaghe , and McC . I do think Roy Jones in his prime beats him at 160 , So does a prime Hopkins and Toney. On the other hand he only needs one shot to hurt them. And sorry I think Miranda hits harder than Hearns who was a natural 147- 154. I think with the motor city cobras suspect chin Pavlik puts him out inside of 5. He and the other great from Brockton Mass will try to trade and who ever hits the hardest and lands the better shots wins. Pavlik has a reach like a 747. He is fukin huge for 160. He is 6'2.5. You are under rating him. He is great. He is not in his prime yet but by this time next year when he beats Joe Calzaghe by knockout and knocks out Abraham you will have a different opinion. I hope . I would like to see him step up and fight Dawson or Tarver next year. But who knows. He has the size and power.
Like I said earlier, it is way too early to rate Pavlik all time. Pavlik and Calzaghe are both undefeated, but that is all. Neither has had the fights where you can sit back and say WOW! Only time and facing consistant top competition will grant them true all time status.
Taylor was a decent win for Pavlik but showed in previous fights he was beatable. Hopkins is older and is beatable. They are building block wins, but Pav needs to go much further.
On that note he seems to have the willingness to take that road, which is commendable.
Yeah mate it was an injured ankle..still goes down as a TKOQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBDaxx i slightly remember the Uriah Grant fight i believe Thomas Hearns broke his ankle ? or injured it im not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnHearns had a shaky chin not one of fine china...The only real upset KO he suffered was from Barkley and that was past his best and at ME...The one by Uriah Grant was when he was waaaaay past is best and at CW...Tommy had been a pro 22 yrs by then as well....The only prime KO's he suffered were against Hagler who beat the shit out of almost everyone and by Leonard...and by the time the KO from Leonard happened Tonmmy was exausted......Kelly has a decent chin of not Taylor is no Hearns in the power dept./..Kelly does not have the wiskers of Hagler or a prime Leonard...Just the fact he has been rocked before in his prime and put on the canvas proves that....Quote:
Originally Posted by southakron314
Tell me a fighter today faster, stronger and healthier then a prime Ali, or Leonard because of the times?.......What featherweight today do you pick over Salvador Sanchez?..Who hits harder then Foreman in his prime?..That statement means nothing when it comes to fighting.......The guy chopping wood and running in the woods for cardio is just as if not stronger then the guy at the gym using machines...
You can only move around a 20X20 ring so fast regardless of training methods....muscles and supplements do not make you hit harder...
all the modern methods are great when it comes to training to run or throw a football.....
http://www.saddoboxing.com/1608-hear...e-warpath.html
I don't think Tommy had longer arms than Pavlik, much of his reach total was due to the broadness of his shoulders, which were formidable BTW. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
As for Pavlik vs Tommy. Tommy was one of those guys who would get to you quickly, and if not you then had your shot. It is a crapshoot with him. He had good boxing skills but only used them when forced to, usually when he was tired, losing and it was simply too late. He depended on that right hand and it usually got the job done.
Grant caught him flush early in 1st and it was sad ending for an all time great,claimed ankle injury off ring apron.Delgado also belted him around plenty.Imo though,I think Kelly makes more mistakes than Hearns and Tommy can capitalize.