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Catchweight fights for me are just another step of demeaning Boxing. We have too many world titles, too many weight divisions. The emphasis on being a 'world' champion doesn't mean much anymore. For me, rules are there for a reason. If you want to fight for a Welterweight title, then both fighters should have the choice to make the full Welterweight limit. If it's not for the belt, then they can do whatever they like.
This is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.
A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans
How does this makes sense:
PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)
PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)
WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response. ;)
''Cotto, just isn't allowed. Okay...? He just isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherThis is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.
A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans
How does this makes sense:
PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)
PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)
WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response. ;)
Cotto is a monster at 147. It's not fair... Size matters.
I cant explain the physiology but it there you go.''
:rolleyes:
are you perhaps predicting Bilbo's explanation?...if so then I'm LMAO....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie''Cotto, just isn't allowed. Okay...? He just isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherThis is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
How does this makes sense:
PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)
PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)
WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response. ;)
Cotto is a monster at 147. It's not fair... Size matters.
I cant explain the physiology but it there you go.''
:rolleyes:
Ok first off curse all you disagreeing, I had to ask Saddo to boot me so I couldn't reply to this as I'm busy but I can't resist damnit ;D
Let me answer these objections as best I can.
bzkfn said Catchweight fights for me are just another step of demeaning Boxing. We have too many world titles, too many weight divisions. The emphasis on being a 'world' champion doesn't mean much anymore.
No. What's demeaning boxing is that we have seemingly dozens of organisations with their own world title belts and upto 7 or 8 world title belts per division, including in some absurd cases two champions in the same organisation!
What's GREAT for boxing is when the alphabet paper champs get ignored and the BEST FIGHT THE BEST as in Pacquaio Cotto. Whether its for a paper belt or not who gives a shit! It's the FIGHT that counts! ;)
@JonesJrMayweather, Ok so let's explain the Oscar thing. First off this was NOT NOT NOT NOT a catchweight fight. Oscar was a 154 lber and Manny a 135 lber. Manny agreed to jump two further weight classes whilst Oscar agreed to drop down one weight class. That's NOT a catchweight, the 147 lb weight division is a REAL division.
The fact that Oscar was weight drained is IRRELEVENT! What if Oscar had smashed Pacquiao like most were expecting? Would Manny have just moved up too high?
And please explain the logic of when a fight moves down a weight class its a catchweight fight and therefore fake bullshit but when a fighter moves up its not?
And what about the catchweight fight Hopkins vs Wright? Didn't everyone moan about that one being unfair to Wright because he had never fought above 160 and was too small for B Hop at 170lbs?
Didn't people at the time argue that B HOP should COME DOWN and fight at if not 160 then around 165 so it was fairer., YES THEY DID CHECK THE THREADS!!!! :)
Ok so now to the question why is it ok for Manny to fight Oscar at 147 and not Cotto or Mosely.
Well isn't obvious? All three fighters are much bigger than Manny. In a fight at either of their chosen weight classes it isn't a fair fight. Manny is a natural 135-140 lbs right that's his optimum weight so fighting these guys at THEIR optimum weight gives THEM an advantage.
So to level the playing the field a bit and allow these MEGA EVENTS, POSSIBLY BEST FIGHTS OF THE MILLENIUM!! to take place BOTH fighters have to give a little.
In Oscars case he moved down one weight class and Manny moved UP THREE! (not counting his brief water testing at lightweight)
In Mosely and Cotto's case Manny agrees to move up 3 or 4 lbs and they move down 3 or 4 lbs.
That's totally fair! And importantly it allows for these potential MEGA FIGHTS, AWESOME EVENTS WHICH EVERYONE WANTS TO SEE to take place when they OTHERWISE MIGHT NOT! How much clearer does it need to be? :p
(I apologise for the caps, they annoy me too, but I am an internet warrior and have no control over my frantic keyboard mashing bony fingers)
wow are you serious with that question?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherThis is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.
A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans
How does this makes sense:
PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)
PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)
WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response. ;)
before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?
ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."
See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.
Ok I made my reply Saddo can you please save me from myself and ban this account too.
I'm going to a calm myself down now lest I get worked up into a state.
Off to the TS fap boards for me to work off some of this energy :)
I totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rainwow are you serious with that question?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherThis is where the pac thing gets weird and illogical for me. Okay Bilbo (or anyone else for that matter), since you're obviously an articulate individual. Please explain to me how it's okay for PACMAN to fight a man bigger than both Cotto and Mosley at their weight class, but not fight them at their own? If I didn't ask that clearly then I'll do it this way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
How does this makes sense:
PACMAN v OSCAR @ 154 (No! oscar too big must come down to 147)
PAC v COTTO or MOSLEY @ 147 (No! 147 too big must come down)
WTF !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? To me the answer is clear but I'll wait for your response. ;)
before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?
ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."
See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.
How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.
Esp considering all things said. Pac weighing 142 against Oscar more recently than Cotto or mosley have been. Cotto hasn't been that small in over three years. Mosely hasn't been less than 146 in over ten years. So asking them to come down to 142 or 143, as I said considering what Manny weighed against Oscar and how he didn't appear to lose any of his ability in weighing 142. So therefore meeting at 142-143 isn't really a catch weight but rather a weight with a catch to give Manny the bigger advantage.
It's not that I'm against Manny or anything it's just if there's a hint that cotto or mosely could look like oscar, id rather not see it. And with a fighter as old as mosley 38, he could fall of cliff overnight. I'd much rather see fighters at the their own OPTIMUM WEIGHT preform against each other. Not "well I'll come in at 90% if you agree to come in at 85%." Or "I'll take a little speed off, if you take some of the power away", I want to see 100% vs 100%. If Manny isn't big enough to be 100% at WW and Cotto or Mosley are to big to be 100% lower than 147 then it shouldn't be made.
the thing is we really can't say who will come in 100% in any fight, thats why they are negotiating a catchweight. Pac looked good beating oscar but is there a double standard? Pac beat a drain Oscar or is he really good enough to fight at 147 against Cotto.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rainwow are you serious with that question?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?
ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."
See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.
How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.
Esp considering all things said. Pac weighing 142 against Oscar more recently than Cotto or mosley have been. Cotto hasn't been that small in over three years. Mosely hasn't been less than 146 in over ten years. So asking them to come down to 142 or 143, as I said considering what Manny weighed against Oscar and how he didn't appear to lose any of his ability in weighing 142. So therefore meeting at 142-143 isn't really a catch weight but rather a weight with a catch to give Manny the bigger advantage.
It's not that I'm against Manny or anything it's just if there's a hint that cotto or mosely could look like oscar, id rather not see it. And with a fighter as old as mosley 38, he could fall of cliff overnight. I'd much rather see fighters at the their own OPTIMUM WEIGHT preform against each other. Not "well I'll come in at 90% if you agree to come in at 85%." Or "I'll take a little speed off, if you take some of the power away", I want to see 100% vs 100%. If Manny isn't big enough to be 100% at WW and Cotto or Mosley are to big to be 100% lower than 147 then it shouldn't be made.
We really dont know at this point, but right now pac is at 140 and imo is still outweight. If he fights any higher he'll be more outweight, thats what gets me because people are talking about pac has the advantage but his far smaller then people acknowledge.
I think people are forgetting fight strategy matters the most. After seeing what pac did to Oscar and Hatton they seem to forget that any of these fight is still very risky/dangerous for pac.
Willpower isn't exactly your forte is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's Mom
I just explained it before!Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rainwow are you serious with that question?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?
ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."
See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.
How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.
Let's break it down step by step. Please read this carefully......
Manny Pacquaio was prior to the Oscar fight a brilliant 130 lb fighter, and arguably p4p number 1 in the world.
Oscar was a 154 lb multiple weight champ and the most popular and biggest grossing PPV non heavyweight champ of all time!
A fight between these two modern day legends had the potential to be a HUGE EVENT grossing MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF POUNDS.
But there was a problem, Manny is tiny and fights at 130 whereas Oscar is much bigger and fights at 154, damn so no fight, impossible....
BUT humans have invented this great idea called COMPROMISE where both parties in a contract dispute decide to give up a little something and meet in the middle to come to agreement, its a process that works very well in life across all fields :)
So Manny agreed to go up 17 lbs and Oscar agreed to go down 7 lbs. That was a FAIR compromise, in fact at the time it was announced everyone criticised OSCAR for picking on a smaller man and being at such an ADVANTAGE.
Now the fight happened and to everyones suprise Manny knocked Oscar the fuck out. So the critics changed their tune and started banging a different drum, Manny took the easy option! Oscar was weight drained etc! Thus the armchair fan is once again 'right' in his own eyes and an idiot in reality.
So Manny destroys Oscar and now wants bigger challenges.
Meanwhile Cotto and Mosely also want bigger challenges.
Now this is the important part. At this point NONE OF THEM CARE ABOUT WORLD TITLE TRINKET BELTS. They are all multiple weight and multiple time champions and are WORLD CLASS ELITE FIGHTERS and so want only to fight other WORLD CLASS ELITE FIGHTERS to make lots and lots of money, fot lots of bragging rights and glory to the winner and for GREAT GREAT fights for us fans.
But again there is the same problem. Manny is not as big as these guys. He's a career 130lb fighter and these are 147 lbs big guys. As Manny's optimum weight is 140 lbs it would seem its only fair that these guys also give a little, like Oscar did to COMPROMISE and thus these MEGA FIGHTS can be made.
Those who say it demeans the world titles or weight classes are so completely missing the point its unbelievable.
For Manny, Mosely, Cotto and Oscar it NO LONGER ABOUT WORLD TITLES AND WEIGHT DIVISIONS. These fighters have already DONE THAT AND CONQUERED. Now they want ONLY ELITE CHALLENGES WHICH IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL IN BOXING!!!!!
So we get to see these potential mega fights, the very very best p4p fighters in the world fighting each other ITS THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF BOXING!
But for these fights to happen there HAS to be a compromise as not all fighters weigh the same.
How can you people not understand this? It doesn't matter about weight classes and alphabet belts any more because all these fighters have all already acomplished this! When you've done that, one world titles in different weights and become the best p4p fighters in the world the goal then isn't to win more alphabet belts but to fight the OTHER best p4p fighters in the world!!!
These fights are BIGGER than alphabet world title fights, and transcend any weight class they happen to be in.
Surely you guys can grasp this? :confused:
Why in the world would you want to prevent these MEGA FIGHTS which represent the PINNACLE of our sport from occuring because you want to see the alphabet belts and weight classes respected when these fighters have already won enough belts and conquered weight classes?
These fights represent the pinnacle of boxing, and are more important than any belt or weight class, this is what you conquer weight classes and win belts for, to become the best and then fight the best!
Now the best can fight each other, but to be fair to BOTH fighters they COMPROMISE over the weight, both give up something, and both give a little ground so as to make the fights we all want to see the most!
Cotto would outweigh Pac 10 to 15 pounds come fight night if the fight took place at 147. Do you guys think that's fair? I think the catchweight is necessary.
Did i miss something who the hell is Bilbo's Mom ?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWillpower isn't exactly your forte is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's Mom
No..because when mosely fought mayorga at 154..mayorga came in at 170 on fight night and still got KO'edQuote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
makes perfect sense to me... it's not about them being too physically big... it's about them being drained. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rainwow are you serious with that question?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
before i answer i have one for you, did you think pac would do what he did before he fought oscar?
ok to answer your question....at the time pac was a featherweight who recently fought at 135. As for Oscar, he was fighting as a light middle weight but had recently fought forbes at 152 or 150 ( i can't remember). The fight with pac is then made and the fight is to be fought at the welterweight division. Tell me did majority of the people before the fight happen thought "oh pac is going to pick oscar apart cause oscar is going down in weight" or was it " oh oscar is going to kill pac, pac is going up in weight too much; he wont be as fast, wont be as strong, power punches wont have any affect."
See after what we all have seen from pac we are disregarding the fact that his still a fighter well known as a featherweight not a lightweight not a welterweight. The guy has had 1 fight at lightweight, 1 fight at junior welterweight and 1 fight at welterweight. Plus before and after the oscar fight there were no plans of staying at 147. Pac planned to stay at 140 and would only go up in weight to get the big fights. Oscar is a huge fight, mosley,cotto and floyd are big fights. Pac fought Oscar at 147 because unlike cotto, Oscar is a junior middle weight. Did you want pac to fight at 154? Plus is pac asking Cotto and Mosley to come down to 140? no his asking to meet him near half way. Like i said Pac had no plans to stay at 147. At 140 his already outweight by 5 pounds and his actually going up more weights than cotto or mosley is going down in weight.
How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.
154 guys will most likely be drained at 147 so it's OK to fight them at that.
147 guys obviously wouldn't be drained at 147 so I guess we'll have to drag them down a bit lower.
Roach isn't stupid... and luckily for him the team have the $$$ ability to pull it off.
oh what a PPV shaped golden carrot will get people willing to do just to get a peice of it.
Bilbo is dominating this thread.
Pacquiao has done the same. I'm basically done defending the catchweight. I've done it for countless amounts of posts but again, Bilbo is absolutely spot on IMO. Honestly, Pacquiao just keeps on fighting bigger guys throughout his career and these fighters are the biggest names in the game!!! How can people continue to hate on him?! He's on top! And is still looking for the big fights. Floyd got to the top and looked and is looking for easier fights for more money. RJJ has a very debatable resume. Pernell and Shane gets no complaints from me. They looked to fight the best and beat them as well. Again, I still can't understand anyone who can't appreciate Manny...Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Again with the titles! Bulldog is right! When has the titles been put up for grabs?! People still complain about titles being fought for outside of the proper weight class but the title isn't on the line...Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogYou mean the same Leonard that demanded Donny Lalonde to fight at 168 for his LHW title. That Leonard? How about JCC demanding Whitaker fight at a catchweight of 145 for his WBC ww title? Or how about Oscar demanding a 39 year old Hopkins come in at 158 for his MW titles? I thought you said the all time greats didn't demand catchweights?Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
Pacman isn't the first to demand catchweights, and there isn't any story out there saying that the WW titles are on the line.
Pacquiao wants to fight Cotto?! Cotto wants to fight Pacquiao!! Everyone wants the fight with Manny because it brings them the most money and he is the P4P best. If Cotto doesn't accept the terms, Pac has numerous options.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkWell my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhy is there so much hate about catchweights?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?
The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.
If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.
They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.
We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.
That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.
What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.
Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.
So are mouth pieces.
And rounds.
Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?
lol
The weight classes are there for a reason.
Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.
Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.
That is not the Christian way.
And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.
Finally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBmakes perfect sense to me... it's not about them being too physically big... it's about them being drained. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI totally get what you're saying...but here's the thing somebody isn't explaining it correctly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rain
How is a man bigger than 147 (oscar) okay to get in the ring with at 147? And then turn around and say men that are already 147 are too big? That makes no sense.
154 guys will most likely be drained at 147 so it's OK to fight them at that.
147 guys obviously wouldn't be drained at 147 so I guess we'll have to drag them down a bit lower.
Roach isn't stupid... and luckily for him the team have the $$$ ability to pull it off.
oh what a PPV shaped golden carrot will get people willing to do just to get a peice of it.
That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.
Thats where I differ on exactly what the best fight possible is exactly.I think we are getting way to caught up in the rush and the almost manufacturing of 'the best fighting the best' boosted by the mythical p4p throne.History is littered with guys meeting outside of their 'natural' weight classes but as of late it is overdone and almost has a circus type of feel.The haggling and splitting hairs over the current catch weight BS.If it is that much of a parlor game and problem for camps/fighters to agree....it may just be an indicator that some proposed fights are not meant to be....or simply that the warranted concerns are not worth it to some fighters.I'm a firm believer in guys taking care of the legitimate threats within a respected weight range in division first and foremost.Years later if you want to be called the best middleweight etc.....you had better of contested with the best to be found in the era prior to division leaping for mega-ultra-super-dooper name attractions.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliHave always thought the p4p a media frenzy...a tag line for quick consumption that is extremely subjective.A dominate and defending fighter meeting his biggest challenges in a given division is what we need. Shite....people focus on a catch weight prior to a bout but how about the actual "unofficial' weight of each fighter once the bell rings.A catch weight too and fro.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Why does it really matter what weight the fight is at, what belt is on the line, what division (or not) that the fight is being held?
What's important is that the best fight each other.
If Manny were to fight Floyd, Shane or Miguel at a catch weight I don't care less. All I care about is that they fight at the best weight that will give us the best fight!
If Manny is too small at 147 let them fight at 143, I don't care if he's fighting for a world title really, it doesn't make the fight any less important, or more importantly entertaining, and that ultimately is all I care about.
I'll take the bait as coincidentally the name missing from Mannys proposed threats you mentioned is that of the man who has given him his toughest scraps and his most heated rival recently...Marquez.I might be in the minority...but that is the fight that needs to happen if its close competitive fan friendly and entertaining matches that I'm looking for.Far more than a Oscar/Pacquioa fight and I believe far more than a Marquez/Mayweather fight.
it works both ways you know? remember pac is a midget, naturally bigger guys is an advantage for them already. if pac fights cotto at 147 then the advantage obviously goes to cotto. bring the weight down a little then its fair for the both of them. well except for jmm, i would love to see them fight one more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
and isnt this supposed to be in the manny thread?
pac is a midget lets not forget that, he is giving us boxing fans a favor by fighting bigger guys. we wouldnt be enjoying his fights if he fights guy of the same size as him cause we all know what will happen. except for jmm i would love to see them fight again!
isnt this supposed to be in the pac thread? or the pac thread is just for spam?
This thread is so stupid Manny isn't too small for 147, and he will prove that when he beats Miguel Cotto, the best WW in the world, at 147.
This thread is deliberately made for Pac. So it belongs in Pac forum.
I'm fine with it being where it currently is. As it has not been moved, I assume the other Mods are as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
how's he going to do that by fight at 144?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
You belong in the pac forum...Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
;)
Yeah... 'compromise'... ;) when was the last time you heard of a fighter moving up in weight being weight drained?!... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherFinally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBmakes perfect sense to me... it's not about them being too physically big... it's about them being drained. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
154 guys will most likely be drained at 147 so it's OK to fight them at that.
147 guys obviously wouldn't be drained at 147 so I guess we'll have to drag them down a bit lower.
Roach isn't stupid... and luckily for him the team have the $$$ ability to pull it off.
oh what a PPV shaped golden carrot will get people willing to do just to get a peice of it.
That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.
Pac may have been the smaller man.... but Roach isn't stupid, he asked for ODLH to come down to a certain weight because he knew something that either most of us didn't know or most pac fans didn't WANT to know.
NOBODY is naturally 120 pounds etc, it takes a lot to get down to that... Before boiling down and drying up, Pac is probably naturally in the 140s anyway.
On paper and indeed when signing the contract I'm sure that meeting each other halfway or whatever seemed like a fair compromise... but the reality is that Pac didn't have to force himself down in weight (which is a massive strain on your system) whilst Oscar had to do it even more. How that is even I do not know.
The weights will have to have been negiotiated and the long and short of it is that Roach has managed to get the numbers right... he's not stupid and whilst he may sound like it when he speaks... he's not soft either.
If Roach couldn't have gotten the right numbers he would never have taken the fight in the first place. He's not dumb.
Manny has acheived a lot... he's a humble guy and a great boxer who has acheived a lot, but I can't give him too much credit when it gets to the point that he (or his team) want to try and drain bigger fighters, the majority of which are already fighting as low as they can go.
Stay at light Welter or properly move up to Welter... just don't try and masquarade as a Welterweight when we all know you're not one.
and yeah, Jones/Lewis is a good example... I've used haye/Wlad before to say the same thing as that is a current fight... but because haye is a disliked, cocky loud mouth I think the comparison perplexed certain people... :-\:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBYeah... 'compromise'... ;) when was the last time you heard of a fighter moving up in weight being weight drained?!... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherFinally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.
Pac may have been the smaller man.... but Roach isn't stupid, he asked for ODLH to come down to a certain weight because he knew something that either most of us didn't know or most pac fans didn't WANT to know.
NOBODY is naturally 120 pounds etc, it takes a lot to get down to that... Before boiling down and drying up, Pac is probably naturally in the 140s anyway.
On paper and indeed when signing the contract I'm sure that meeting each other halfway or whatever seemed like a fair compromise... but the reality is that Pac didn't have to force himself down in weight (which is a massive strain on your system) whilst Oscar had to do it even more. How that is even I do not know.
The weights will have to have been negiotiated and the long and short of it is that Roach has managed to get the numbers right... he's not stupid and whilst he may sound like it when he speaks... he's not soft either.
If Roach couldn't have gotten the right numbers he would never have taken the fight in the first place. He's not dumb.
Manny has acheived a lot... he's a humble guy and a great boxer who has acheived a lot, but I can't give him too much credit when it gets to the point that he (or his team) want to try and drain bigger fighters, the majority of which are already fighting as low as they can go.
Stay at light Welter or properly move up to Welter... just don't try and masquarade as a Welterweight when we all know you're not one.
and yeah, Jones/Lewis is a good example... I've used haye/Wlad before to say the same thing as that is a current fight... but because haye is a disliked, cocky loud mouth I think the comparison perplexed certain people... :-\:rolleyes:
haha I love the hypocrisy in your position. :rolleyes:
So Oscar (with all the bartering power) was dragged down into a weight class he couldn't perform at and was totally depleted at 147 lbs.
Yet Manny should fight at 147 because he never weighed in the 120's he was just starving himself and drying up to make weight there, I guess to beat up on smaller guys.
Er ok right, so Manny was able to fight 20 lbs below his body weight without problem but none of these other guys can drop even 3 lbs, it would drain them too much.
If Manny walks around at 140 lbs then according to your own logic guys like Mosely and Cotto must walk around at 160 right?
So maybe THAT'S why a catchweight 'COMPROMISE' is necessary. To stop guys like Cotto and Mosely outweighing him by 20 lbs on the night of the fight.
He has been talking about a catcheweight of 144 lbs. That is only 2 lbs less than Cotto weighed in against Clottey, it's hardly going to see him like Oscar De La Hoya, who was 7 years older and had not fought at 147 for over 8 years and who weighed in on fight night, not at 147 but at 142! Let's not forget Oscar seriously fucked up his training that camp, he weighed 150 for Forbes and was ok.
A cacthweight is completely fair. Manny's ideal fighting weight now would be around 140 lbs, and by that I mean weigh in on the night of the fight at around 140-143 lbs
Cotto and Mosely if no catchweight was imposed could weigh in on the night of the fight well over 154 so outweigh him on the night of the fight by up to maybe 10 - 15 lbs.
That's 10 percent of Manny's bodyweight, a huge advantage to give up when the opponent also happens to be a world class elite fighter too.
There's a reason why Roy Jones gave up so much bodyweight to John Ruiz and not Lennox Lewis, it's because Ruiz is not 1/10th of the fighter Jones is. Manny is moving up and fighting the BEST, guys who are also elite fighters. I'm sure he wouldn't mind giving up the weight so much if the champ he was fighting was, like John Ruiz, a mediocre paper holding bum
Manny came in weighing at 148 pounds against Hatton on fight night. I think this can be easily solved if there is a limit to rehydration. Let's say 157 on fight night is the limit, which would be fair compared to some of these welterweights who come in at 170 pounds on fight night like Clottey did against Corrales a few years ago.
You can't put a limit on rehydration, firstly no such provision exists, the weigh in is two days or in some cases a day before the fight, there is no official second weigh in just before the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Secondly if they tried to put a second weigh in just prior to the fight it would totally unworkable. You can't cancel a fight when the fighter is in his dressing room ready to tape up after he's already made the weigh in two days before!
Thirdly it would be dangerous to put a limit on rehydration as fighters need to be properly rehydrated before they fight.
A catchweight of 143 or 144 is clearly the fairest solution (and Manny may yet just fight at 147 anyway).
It puts a limit on his opponents whole training camp in a sense, as it means they can't bulk up. 3 lbs isn't going to drain them so they are a shell like some seem to think, it would just impose some limits on them and prevent them from using their natural size advantage in the ring.
It's completely simple logic.
If a 135 lb man fights a 147 lb man (we are talking fighting weights not walking around weights) of equal talent and ability the 147 lb man will win because he has around a 10 percent bodyweight advantage, that is a hell of a lot at these weights.
Therefore if the 147 lb man agrees to weigh 143 or 144 lbs the advantage of bodyweight is reduced. It becomes a fairer fight.
Nobody is talking about massive weight loss and being forced to fight in a division too light like Oscar did, we are talking about catchweight, an agreed weight between the two divisions its a perfect solution.
In relation to other people's argument. The weight division and titles are to all intents and purposes irelevent. Neither fighter is fighting to win a belt any more, they have already conquered the traditional divisions and won world titles. Now they are moving on beyond that to fight the best p4p fighters, other great fighters who fight in different weight classes. And that is the key, as they fight in different weight classes and its to the other's great advantage if one moves to the their weight class, they agree a catchweight and fight on nuetral ground.
The titles and weight classes no longer matter in this case because they are not fighting for them. Manny is the worlds best 140 lb fighter, Cotto is arguably the best 147 lb fighter so they battle, on neutral ground at 144.
It's an ideal solution, who cares if its for a world title or not, its no longer about that, these fighters are bigger than the belts now, they are fighting for p4p rights.
Bilbo's mom is kicking butt. Lol
All the greats in the history of the sport have moved up through the divisions and havent demanded that their opponents come in weight drained. I dont see whats so special about Pac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
Name me three other fighters in history who moved up 8 WEIGHT CLASSES from where they started their careers then fought the BEST opponent in that weight class and won?
Just three names all of boxing history will suffice, then you can see how special Pac is.
If Pac is not special, then what makes Marco Antonio Barrera then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherFinally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBmakes perfect sense to me... it's not about them being too physically big... it's about them being drained. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
154 guys will most likely be drained at 147 so it's OK to fight them at that.
147 guys obviously wouldn't be drained at 147 so I guess we'll have to drag them down a bit lower.
Roach isn't stupid... and luckily for him the team have the $$$ ability to pull it off.
oh what a PPV shaped golden carrot will get people willing to do just to get a peice of it.
That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.
Why would Lewis have to drop to 210 lbs? Lewis weighed in around 240 lbs so why are you making him drop 30 lbs?
The proposed catchweight from Manny asks Cotto to drop 2 single lbs.
So are you saying if Roy Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis but only if Lewis dropped 2 lbs and weighed in at no more than 238 lbs you wouldn't have been impressed?
As they are bigger so lbs count less lets make it 5 lbs, double the amount Cotto has to drop. Lewis had to weigh in at no more than 235 lbs would you be complaining that Jones was a coward and a pussy?
Seriously now if Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis as long as Lewis agreed to come in under 235 lbs the fight would have meant to nothing to you and Jones was a pussy?
You guys are unreal
Ray Leonard, Oscar and Duran. Oscar went from superfeater to middleweight champ and he wasnt fighting guys coming off losses like Pac either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's MomQuote:
Originally Posted by GAME
Name me three other fighters in history who moved up 8 WEIGHT CLASSES from where they started their careers then fought the BEST opponent in that weight class and won?
Just three names all of boxing history will suffice, then you can see how special Pac is.
Pac fought a washed up Barrera coming off a loss and the commentary scored it for Barrera. Everytime Pac met Morales, Erik was coming off a loss and Erik beat him once aswel. Then he meets Oscar at the end of his career who had moved down from middleweight . He had no energy in round 1 and Pac still couldnt drop him and it took 9 rounds of non stop punching without Oscar punching back. Then Pac meets another Floyd Mayweather leftover in Hatton.
The last time Pac met fighters on teh way up instead of the way down in was Sungursat and Torrencamp and both men knocked Pac clean out in 3 easy rounds. FACT
Barrera beat undefeated fighters in their prime like Morales and Nas. Pac doesnt fight prime fightersQuote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Steelhammer
Its like saying Mcbride beat Tyson so he must be better
haha 3 names all WRONG!Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMERay Leonard, Oscar and Duran. Oscar went from superfeater to middleweight champ and he wasnt fighting guys coming off losses like Pac either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's MomQuote:
Originally Posted by GAME
Name me three other fighters in history who moved up 8 WEIGHT CLASSES from where they started their careers then fought the BEST opponent in that weight class and won?
Just three names all of boxing history will suffice, then you can see how special Pac is.
Pac fought a washed up Barrera coming off a loss and the commentary scored it for Barrera. Everytime Pac met Morales, Erik was coming off a loss and Erik beat him once aswel. Then he meets Oscar at the end of his career who had moved down from middleweight . He had no energy in round 1 and Pac still couldnt drop him and it took 9 rounds of non stop punching without Oscar punching back. Then Pac meets another Floyd Mayweather leftover in Hatton.
The last time Pac met fighters on teh way up instead of the way down in was Sungursat and Torrencamp and both men knocked Pac clean out in 3 easy rounds. FACT
When did Oscar fight the BEST middleweight at their weight?
He fought Bernard AT A CATCHWEIGHT AND GOT KNOCKED OUT
Then he fought Felix Sturm, a paper belt holder and lost by virtually every fans scorecard.
Ray Leonard won the light heavy title AT A CATCHWEIGHT
NONE OF THEM WENT THROUGH 8 DIVISION.
DURAN LOST TO HAGLER,
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
Reply to my post above posting vids a sign you lost the argument.
Oscar and Ray Leonard both fought for world titles AT CATCHWEIGHTS against DRAINED opponents in your words.
Lol thats rich coming from a pacfan when you consider everyone thinks Marquez dominated Pac both times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's Momhaha 3 names all WRONG!Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMERay Leonard, Oscar and Duran. Oscar went from superfeater to middleweight champ and he wasnt fighting guys coming off losses like Pac either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's Mom
Pac fought a washed up Barrera coming off a loss and the commentary scored it for Barrera. Everytime Pac met Morales, Erik was coming off a loss and Erik beat him once aswel. Then he meets Oscar at the end of his career who had moved down from middleweight . He had no energy in round 1 and Pac still couldnt drop him and it took 9 rounds of non stop punching without Oscar punching back. Then Pac meets another Floyd Mayweather leftover in Hatton.
The last time Pac met fighters on teh way up instead of the way down in was Sungursat and Torrencamp and both men knocked Pac clean out in 3 easy rounds. FACT
When did Oscar fight the BEST middleweight at their weight?
He fought Bernard AT A CATCHWEIGHT AND GOT KNOCKED OUT
Then he fought Felix Sturm, a paper belt holder and lost by virtually every fans scorecard.
Ray Leonard won the light heavy title AT A CATCHWEIGHT
NONE OF THEM WENT THROUGH 8 DIVISION.
DURAN LOST TO HAGLER,
So Diaz was the best lighhtweight was he . You guys make me laugh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo's MomQuote:
Originally Posted by GAME
Reply to my post above posting vids a sign you lost the argument.
Oscar and Ray Leonard both fought for world titles AT CATCHWEIGHTS against DRAINED opponents in your words.
I just owned you in the previous post. Theres no coming back from that
By the way Pacland is that way ---------------->