If David Haye loses to Vitali in July...

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by BIG H

My opinion remains as it always has. Haye gets stopped inside 6 rounds against Wlad and inside 3 against Vitali. He does, however have a very realistic chnace of beating Wlad (if Sanders can and Brewster can and Purity can, Haye can!!) I don't think Wlad's durabilty has improved since those fights, I just think he has become more cautious. He has been doWn 11 times, and therefore Haye definitely has a chance.

Versus Vitali I give Haye a 0% chance

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The guys that knocked Wlad down either A) Withstood serious punishment to the point where Wlad was tired or B) Had legitimate heavyweight punching power....does the WBA title holder have that? Maybe he does maybe he doesn't....he's got fast hands, but he couldn't stop Valuev, it took him a while to finish off Monte Barrett and John Ruiz. As for caution....who fought Audley Harrison last and how did he look doing it?

Corrie Sanders was a southpaw with a deadly left cross...one that also need I remind you hurt Vitali as much as Lennox Lewis ever did. Not everyone is on the same level in regards to how hard they punch.

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Don't mistake me as a Haye fan ;) I think both Klits beat him, but he has a legitimate chance against Wlad, who's limitations have be shown over and over again. Down 11 times That can only be down to one thing and 11 excuses cannot be found or legitimized.

For the record - I think Haye is way way overrated and very limited. Yeh, he has skills, but he's no great heavyweight and never will be.

God, whatever....if you don't want to watch the fight then why waste your time commenting on it?

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

God, whatever....if you don't want to watch the fight then why waste your time commenting on it?

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if there is a fight dont hold your breath

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

God, whatever....if you don't want to watch the fight then why waste your time commenting on it?

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When did I say I didn't want to watch it? You smoking tonight?

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

God, whatever....if you don't want to watch the fight then why waste your time commenting on it?

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When did I say I didn't want to watch it? You smoking tonight?

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No, but if you are going to watch the fight then why start bitching about it before it even happens?

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

God, whatever....if you don't want to watch the fight then why waste your time commenting on it?

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When did I say I didn't want to watch it? You smoking tonight?

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No, but if you are going to watch the fight then why start bitching about it before it even happens?

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Check back mate. I haven't 'bitched' about the fight. I haven't questioned whether it will happen or got involved in any of that. All I have said is that I see limitations in both fighters. Can we only comment on fights where we think both fighters are all time greats?

:vd: every fighter has limitations....how many times did Ali lose the title? Holyfield? Who did Tyson finally lose his title to? Who did Holmes end up losing to? Yes all those fighters I mentioned are all time greats but certain parts of their careers aren't that impressive. I can knit pick fighters with the best of them but what do you want the current fighters to do? What can they do? I mean Wlad could go undefeated for the rest of his career and if he fights to 39-40 like Vitali has then he'll have compiled a very impressive record, but just because he's been down 11 times according to you he isn't a great fighter....ridiculous

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

:vd: every fighter has limitations....how many times did Ali lose the title? Holyfield? Who did Tyson finally lose his title to? Who did Holmes end up losing to? Yes all those fighters I mentioned are all time greats but certain parts of their careers aren't that impressive. I can knit pick fighters with the best of them but what do you want the current fighters to do? What can they do? I mean Wlad could go undefeated for the rest of his career and if he fights to 39-40 like Vitali has then he'll have compiled a very impressive record, but just because he's been down 11 times according to you he isn't a great fighter....ridiculous

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Is it :confused:

Yes it is....Wlad can only fight the boxers in his era and thus far he's done extremely well and that my friend is a FACT

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Yes it is....Wlad can only fight the boxers in his era and thus far he's done extremely well and that my friend is a FACT

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http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ld...e5g2o1_500.gif

This thread has turned from the typical 'debate' that we have seen 100s of times over, with the same old tired arguments into something slightly surreal...

wtf is that picture and wtf did the whole "Fiiiine! Don't watch the fight Big H! I'm taking my ball back home!" outburst come from? Left Field seems like a good answer?

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

:vd: every fighter has limitations....how many times did Ali lose the title? Holyfield? Who did Tyson finally lose his title to? Who did Holmes end up losing to? Yes all those fighters I mentioned are all time greats but certain parts of their careers aren't that impressive. I can knit pick fighters with the best of them but what do you want the current fighters to do? What can they do? I mean Wlad could go undefeated for the rest of his career and if he fights to 39-40 like Vitali has then he'll have compiled a very impressive record, but just because he's been down 11 times according to you he isn't a great fighter....ridiculous

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Is it :confused:

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Yes, clearly having an opinion that a fighter who has been knocked down 11 times by lacklustre opponents and subsuquenty fought overly cautiously against vastly smaller, weaker (and again lacklustre) opposition isn't an ATG is ludicrous...

IMO Wlad's resume makes Tyson's look like Ali's... I'm struggling to find a guy on Wlad's resume who I think could have easily beaten Frank Bruno! I know Tyson's resume isn't the strongest... But he is still seen as an ATG, why? Because at least when he had nobodies to fight... He destroyed then, even being the smaller fighter he wouldn't embarassing paw at guys that a supposed ATG should be dispatching of with ease.

If you can only fight the guys out there and you want to be a great, at least do it in an impressive manner.

Wlad is a good fighter, but I can't call him a great... Not yet.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Yes it is....Wlad can only fight the boxers in his era and thus far he's done extremely well and that my friend is a FACT

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Apart from the 11 times that he got landed on his ass ;)

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

This thread has turned from the typical 'debate' that we have seen 100s of times over, with the same old tired arguments into something slightly surreal...

wtf is that picture and wtf did the whole "Fiiiine! Don't watch the fight Big H! I'm taking my ball back home!" outburst come from? Left Field seems like a good answer?

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:) i just enjoy winding el kabong up

ill stop it now tho im getting a bit bored of it myself

actually tho i might just have one more pop

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Yes it is....Wlad can only fight the boxers in his era and thus far he's done extremely well and that my friend is a FACT

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Apart from the 11 times that he got landed on his ass ;)

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55(49 KO's)-3 .....you want to focus on the times he been knocked down, that's your choice, his record speaks for itself. Dominant champion and surefire Hall of Famer

In a sick and twisted way, a part of me will be sad when the fight FINALLY DOES HAPPEN, 'cause a lot of great banter will come to an end.

;D

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Yes it is....Wlad can only fight the boxers in his era and thus far he's done extremely well and that my friend is a FACT

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Apart from the 11 times that he got landed on his ass ;)

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55(49 KO's)-3 .....you want to focus on the times he been knocked down, that's your choice, his record speaks for itself. Dominant champion and surefire Hall of Famer

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He didn't just focus on that and he didn't bitch about the fight.

To put he really simply he said -
' Wlad will probably win. BUT Wlad has been down 11 times in his career so Haye has a CHANCE'.
What the fuck is so unreasonable about that? He was saying that 11 times is too many for it to just be dismissed as not relevant.
He has clearly said he thinks Wlad will probably win.

Also, pointing out that both fighters have a chance in a fight doesn't really count as bitching about it.

This fight could go either way, out of the brothers I'd say vitali is the more mobile whilst wlad has the one shot power, haye can win if he pot shots as he did with valuev but valuev didn't stalk like a klitschko. Haye was able to to do what he wanted with valuev, if haye gets drawn into a close scrap then he gets put in a hospital.

Watching the first round ofthe SOlis fight was actually something that almost convinced me when I thought that Vitali would be the worst matchup for Haye, watching what Solis was able to pull off let me see something, he is slowing down, and he is having a hard time seeing those counter right hands. Solis came in with a great strategy and was executing it well. But what I saw from Vitali was he wasn't as elusive as he used to be, maybe it has something to do with the fact he was mostly a counter puncher that could walk down fighters going backward and had power to back it up. But something about Vitali seems off right now, he got hit more in that first round then I can remember seeing in a while, just counter right counter right counter right and he kept leading and kept getting hit with it. That low left hand is coming back to bite him he doesn't pull away as fast as he used to. Watching that I'm almost convinced Haye would have an easier time beating Vitali then Wlad would. It's like when Sugar Ray Leonard saw Hagler against Mugabi and said he could beat Hagler by what he saw. By what I saw out of Vitali in just that short period of time, I think Haye can beat him. Vitali is slowing down considerably, and maybe it was just that fight but the gap between how he looked two fights ago, to last week is so big, that it makes me wonder if Haye fought Vitali what would happen, Vitali has an iron jaw but even he wouldn't take those straight counter right hands from Haye all night. So who knows but Vitali is vulnerable right now.

All of u people take a look at the weigh in and fight and tell me vitali doesn't look well atall!!

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Originally Posted by ryanman

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Yes it is....Wlad can only fight the boxers in his era and thus far he's done extremely well and that my friend is a FACT

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Apart from the 11 times that he got landed on his ass ;)

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55(49 KO's)-3 .....you want to focus on the times he been knocked down, that's your choice, his record speaks for itself. Dominant champion and surefire Hall of Famer

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He didn't just focus on that and he didn't bitch about the fight.

To put he really simply he said -
' Wlad will probably win. BUT Wlad has been down 11 times in his career so Haye has a CHANCE'.
What the fuck is so unreasonable about that? He was saying that 11 times is too many for it to just be dismissed as not relevant.
He has clearly said he thinks Wlad will probably win.

Also, pointing out that both fighters have a chance in a fight doesn't really count as bitching about it.

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...how many times has the WBA title holder been "dropped on his ass"? In a shorter career and at lighter weights as well.

The fight won't be close Wlad will win by KO, whether it's early or late all depends on how serious his opponent is.



Also, I am absolutely amazed that 2 minutes and 30-45 seconds has ended up "blue printing" Vitali Klitschko. Throughout his entire career nobody knew how to handle him, but after 2/3rds of a round vs Solis, NOW we know all about him, he's old, he's slow......this has to be the worst ever performance from a fighter winning by a first round TKO ever in the history of the sport.

If Haye can get Joe Cortez as a ref, he has a huge chance of upsetting Haye.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

If Haye can get Joe Cortez as a ref, he has a huge chance of upsetting Haye.

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:lol::lolhaha::spit:

...it won't matter who the ref is or who the judges are, Wlad is going to win

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

If Haye can get Joe Cortez as a ref, he has a huge chance of upsetting Haye.

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:lol::lolhaha::spit:

...it won't matter who the ref is or who the judges are, Wlad is going to win

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Let's be honest now, if Wlad isn't allowed to clinch his opponent everytime they get in close his chances of winning are going to be much lower. Hell he may even be disqualified for clinching every 15 seconds or so.

Just think Lewis-Akinwande.;)

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Let's be honest now, if Wlad isn't allowed to clinch his opponent everytime they get in close his chances of winning are going to be much lower. Hell he may even be disqualified for clinching every 15 seconds or so.

Just think Lewis-Akinwande.;)

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Wlad has had Cortez as a ref at least 2 times and both times Wlad won...just so you know. Most recently Wlad-Thompson was reffed by Cortez...and to be honest Wlad hasn't used the clinch as much recently, the first bout vs Sam Peter he used it a lot (I admit it) but #1 He was coming off of some bad defeats and poor performances and #2 He was getting rabbit punched.

BBC Sport - Wladimir Klitschko vows to knock out Haye in 12th round

"I will really feed him with the jab - jab jab grab, jab jab grab, grab"

At least Wlad is being honest about how he does and likely will fight. Even if The Boxing Message Board Account Holder isn't.

....You didn't pick up any sarcasm from that?

Not really.

Sorry but gems such as "eventually the right missile is going to land on his chin or his temple or whatever it is." don't really give the impression that Wlad is making some point using scathingly sarcastic comments... More that he's just opening his mouth (or whatever it is) and seeing what it is.

I got the sarcasm when he said "I'm soooo scared of David Haye" but only because it was the level of sarcasm and whit you'd expect from a 10 year old.

It's almost sweet watching him try to sell the fight... But he shouldn't get drawn into Haye's little games, not when he's such a poor talker... He should keep his quiet and make Haye look stupid... But instead he's reverted to going tip for tap with Haye (who's trash talk is pretty lame). Haye could barely out talk his mate wearing a Valuev mask... But when Wlad trys he trips over his own feet and almost makes Haye's talk look good.

Wlad, the so called cerebral fighter should know that he can't talk and just do the job in the ring. Why on earth is he rolling around in the dirt with Haye?

He's favourite to make Haye look stupid on fight night, so why make himself look stupid now?

OK so in the eyes of the supporters of the WBA title holder not only is Wlad a bad boxer he's bad at trash talking.....well that should swing the odds in Vegas :vd:

....I guess I'll just wait until the fight is over when people will not only agree with me but take it to the next level comparing the WBA title holder to Audley Harrison or Derek Chisora saying stuff like "Well we knew all along he didn't stand a chance" OR they'll save up all their criticism for Wlad (as per usual) and never give him credit for winning or being dominant as ever.

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Originally Posted by Majesty

Watching the first round ofthe SOlis fight was actually something that almost convinced me when I thought that Vitali would be the worst matchup for Haye, watching what Solis was able to pull off let me see something, he is slowing down, and he is having a hard time seeing those counter right hands. Solis came in with a great strategy and was executing it well. But what I saw from Vitali was he wasn't as elusive as he used to be, maybe it has something to do with the fact he was mostly a counter puncher that could walk down fighters going backward and had power to back it up. But something about Vitali seems off right now, he got hit more in that first round then I can remember seeing in a while, just counter right counter right counter right and he kept leading and kept getting hit with it. That low left hand is coming back to bite him he doesn't pull away as fast as he used to. Watching that I'm almost convinced Haye would have an easier time beating Vitali then Wlad would. It's like when Sugar Ray Leonard saw Hagler against Mugabi and said he could beat Hagler by what he saw. By what I saw out of Vitali in just that short period of time, I think Haye can beat him. Vitali is slowing down considerably, and maybe it was just that fight but the gap between how he looked two fights ago, to last week is so big, that it makes me wonder if Haye fought Vitali what would happen, Vitali has an iron jaw but even he wouldn't take those straight counter right hands from Haye all night. So who knows but Vitali is vulnerable right now.

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I agree Vitali is easier than Wlad, at this point. I felt the same when watching Vitali vs Solis. Solis had a great gameplan, had the skills, but definitely not the physical condition to be succesful at it. From Vitali's latest fights you can also see he is not bending those knees anymore and is losing his punching power as he is getting older (something that is happening with David Tua). But again, he would be a tough fight for Haye, because Haye himself is NOT that technical to outbox a durable Vitali for 12 rounds. Puts that left hand low unneccesary all the time, he is there to be hit after every right hand he throws, and squares up when moving side to side. He is explosive and got power but Vitali on the other hand has shown he can take a punch.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

....You didn't pick up any sarcasm from that?

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your love for him really is unconditional

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Originally Posted by badr_hari

I agree Vitali is easier than Wlad, at this point. I felt the same when watching Vitali vs Solis. Solis had a great gameplan, had the skills, but definitely not the physical condition to be succesful at it. From Vitali's latest fights you can also see he is not bending those knees anymore and is losing his punching power as he is getting older (something that is happening with David Tua). But again, he would be a tough fight for Haye, because Haye himself is NOT that technical to outbox a durable Vitali for 12 rounds. Puts that left hand low unneccesary all the time, he is there to be hit after every right hand he throws, and squares up when moving side to side. He is explosive and got power but Vitali on the other hand has shown he can take a punch.

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Whether or not Vitali is "slowing down" is moot, nobody is going to beat him. I think he may have 1 more fight before the Adamek fight, and then retire. Just because Vitali may have been SLIGHTLY cautious vs Solis for 2/3rds of a round doesn't mean CRAP, he won didn't he? Why worry about how many right crosses Vitali can take when his competition (obviously) still can't take 1 flush punch from him?!?!? Soon enough The WBC belt will be vacated and Wladimir will fight somebody for it: Arreola is still (why I don't know) ranked highly, Boytsov might be ready by then...but it's pointless to worry about since everyone but the Klitschko's are so inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

OK so in the eyes of the supporters of the WBA title holder not only is Wlad a bad boxer he's bad at trash talking.....well that should swing the odds in Vegas :vd:

....I guess I'll just wait until the fight is over when people will not only agree with me but take it to the next level comparing the WBA title holder to Audley Harrison or Derek Chisora saying stuff like "Well we knew all along he didn't stand a chance" OR they'll save up all their criticism for Wlad (as per usual) and never give him credit for winning or being dominant as ever.

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Settle your imagination down... First Big H is bitching about the fight and shouldn't watch it and now I'm saying that Wlad is a poor boxer and that his rubbish trash talking will cost him the fight?

Calm down... You're obviously too excited to read posts properly.

I've never said any of those things... My only point is that prefight, Wlad is playing Haye's game and not his own.

Nobody will say afterwards that Haye didn't have a chance... He's a pretty big underdog, but a very live one... 65 35 in wlads favour at worst.

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Settle your imagination down... First Big H is bitching about the fight and shouldn't watch it and now I'm saying that Wlad is a poor boxer and that his rubbish trash talking will cost him the fight?

Calm down... You're obviously too excited to read posts properly.

I've never said any of those things... My only point is that prefight, Wlad is playing Haye's game and not his own.

Nobody will say afterwards that Haye didn't have a chance... He's a pretty big underdog, but a very live one... 65 35 in wlads favour at worst.

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...and there you have it, my entire issue with threads of this nature. Who the hell cares about how much crap any fighter talks before a fight? I just get a little fed up with the hate Wlad gets and all the "Ooohs" and "Ahhhs" the WBA title holder gets....not from fighting, but from talking...talking. Last time I checked BOXING involved fighting. If the WBA title holder is interested making a living talking shit then he should sign up for the WWE and get the hell out of boxing because it's painfully obvious that he enjoys jawing more than actually boxing.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

OK so in the eyes of the supporters of the WBA title holder not only is Wlad a bad boxer he's bad at trash talking.....well that should swing the odds in Vegas :vd:

....I guess I'll just wait until the fight is over when people will not only agree with me but take it to the next level comparing the WBA title holder to Audley Harrison or Derek Chisora saying stuff like "Well we knew all along he didn't stand a chance" OR they'll save up all their criticism for Wlad (as per usual) and never give him credit for winning or being dominant as ever.

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A few select paraphrased sentences from AdamGB's post -
'Hayes trash talking is pretty lame'
'Wlad should keep quiet and make Haye look stupid'
'Wlad is favourite to make Haye look stupid on the night'
'Why on earth is he rolling around in the dirt with Haye'


How on earth did you get from that that he was either a David Haye fan or that Wlad is as bad a boxer as he is a talker?
He didn't say either.
You either can't read or choose not to.

Yeah wlads shit talking isn't the greatest because I don't think its his nature really, plus english is like his fourth language or whatever. He should have just kept on ignoring haye and being silent, but the problem with that was that to many people were starting to think that haye was actually the man in the division...

Well, listening to that, Wladimir seems pretty certain that he will be fighting David Haye.

Certain Saddos will probably choose to ignore this and claim that he 'doesn't want to fight'.

What happens if Haye wins?

Would he instantly become a great? For toppling something so dominant. Would even the Haye haters stand up and applaud him for being something genuinely special?

Haye might not be favourite to win with many, but he has speed in abundance and it's clear that neither brother likes it. That's clear from a career of watching, not just now and naturally declining with age. With his speed he can trouble most and getting hit on the chin is only an issue if you get hit. I think Booth is good enough to have a good plan and will be countering that jab all night.

If Haye loses he'll just do a Naz.

Ill give haye props if he wi
Ns, don't have a problem with him, just how he talked himself into a huge fight, and he holds a title that belongs to someone else. Also if john ruiz and barret can hit ya and rock ya I guarantee you either of the klits will as well, haye is fast but he's not all that elusive or hard to hit.