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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
fan johnny
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
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Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
I find this a rampant problem in the sport right now. Freddie Roach, Gabriel Sarmentio and Manny Stewart have calm corners and impart useful technical advice. But after that all you hear is "box him" or "throw more punches" type of advice delivered in a nervous pleading manner. Or you get th Berto everybody talk and nobody listen approach.
It's just awful.
You only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.
You really think we're not getting the good rounds, just the bad? Really? I grant your point about seeing only fragments, but I see no reason to believe they aren't representative.
Well.. What I heard was his corner, was pleading with him to box. When he boxed and kept Ortiz at a distance with his jab, he did well and was able to sit down when he threw his right.
See I don't think that's technical or useful advice anymore than "let your hands go" is. Especially when you have a fighter with cement shoes like Berto has.
Look... it's like this. Berto obviously did not have all of his senses in tack during the fight. Most probably due to fact he was getting hit in the head repeatedly very hard starting from the first round.
I'm not saying his corner wasn't shit as far as corners go. I'm just saying people are making judgments about his corner without "totally" knowing what was going on. You say you what heard was pretty useless. I'm saying, what I saw and I heard wasn't at all like people put it in this thread. I heard his corner specifically telling him to box. i.e. stay on the outside and use your jab. His corner may or may not have communicated that concept to Berto effectively in the context of his fight plan. I have no way of knowing that because I wasn't there and I'm not Berto. I can only assume they had a plan and trained for the fight following a specific plan with possibly some alternatives. What I saw was, when Berto did box, he was keeping Ortiz on the outside and he was very effective. When Berto allowed Ortiz on the inside he was getting his ass kicked most of the time. It's was not a complected fight to follow because neither fighter made very many adjustments. Berto just didn't seem to be able follow instructions. I can't tell you if it was or wasn't the corners fault.
Nice post.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
I would say that most of the relies are on the money and Berto's trainers haven't taught him a thing because even though he fought back and fought back hard, he had no idea how to follow through and between rounds the corner was so uninspiring.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
el kabong
did you miss tyson's corner when he fought douglas? They didn't even have ice to stop the swelling, they just had a fucking water balloon.
I have yet to watch the fight(ortiz-berto), but i've heard it was exciting, and i was not surprised by the result at all.
bullshit !
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Did anybody here overhear his corner tell him to quit moving to his right? "Go out their and box." You have got to be kidding me.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Berto let a guy that never even fought at 147 own him. Not much you can tell a guy who fights flat footed. Why this wasn't corrected in the gym over the year of inactivity is beyond me. He lost before the fight started expecting to do any damage at a stacked WW division fighting flat footed. ridiculous how hyped he was.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Forget about being flat footed. Both of these guys are boxer punchers so of course they are going to fight flat footed. Bertos problems came from direction. Same thing happened with Collazo. He moved like he was fighting another orthodox fighter. His corner amounted to be a group of crickets in the mid day sun. Next time pay the janitor 50 grand to be your trainer.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Forget about being flat footed. Both of these guys are boxer punchers so of course they are going to fight flat footed. Bertos problems came from direction. Same thing happened with Collazo. He moved like he was fighting another orthodox fighter. His corner amounted to be a group of crickets in the mid day sun. Next time pay the janitor 50 grand to be your trainer.
I saw ortiz on his toes. I have yet to see Berto on his toes his entire televised career.
How can you move properly when you are on your heels. that is berto's problem
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
The fact that Tony Morgan didn't tell Berto's brother to shut the fuck up says that Berto should move elsewhere. I think the criticism of Berto has been way over the top. He was likely concussed from the 1st round on & apparently broke his hand in the 2nd, yet he fought through to the final bell & gave a decent showing. I had it 114-111 for Ortiz in the end, and although the ref was too involved he wasn't as bad as some are making out, I agreed with the points deduction, but I thought Ortiz deserved the extra KD. For everyone complaining about holding & Berto turning his head, Victor was coming in using his head, hence him having to turn it. I've no problem with any of that, fighters will bend the rules as much as they can, but I think it's unfair to criticize a fighter for fouling to nullify his opponent's fouls.
I think Berto would really benefit form Ronnie Shields or Manny Steward. He needs to get with someone who can get him make the most of what he's got.
FOTY so far for me though (much higher skill level than Marquez-Concepcion), it was thrilling and congratulations to Ortiz, I'm glad that he proved me right (yes go back & read my input in the Ortiz is a quiter thread).
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
el kabong
did you miss tyson's corner when he fought douglas? They didn't even have ice to stop the swelling, they just had a fucking water balloon.
I have yet to watch the fight(ortiz-berto), but i've heard it was exciting, and i was not surprised by the result at all.
bullshit !
Bullshit what? Aaron Snowell did jack crap in that fight...granted Tyson wasn't listening anyway but hell the least he could do is ACT like a trainer that gives a damn
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
The fact that Tony Morgan didn't tell Berto's brother to shut the fuck up says that Berto should move elsewhere. I think the criticism of Berto has been way over the top. He was likely concussed from the 1st round on & apparently broke his hand in the 2nd, yet he fought through to the final bell & gave a decent showing. I had it 114-111 for Ortiz in the end, and although the ref was too involved he wasn't as bad as some are making out, I agreed with the points deduction, but I thought Ortiz deserved the extra KD. For everyone complaining about holding & Berto turning his head, Victor was coming in using his head, hence him having to turn it. I've no problem with any of that, fighters will bend the rules as much as they can, but I think it's unfair to criticize a fighter for fouling to nullify his opponent's fouls.
I think Berto would really benefit form Ronnie Shields or Manny Steward. He needs to get with someone who can get him make the most of what he's got.
FOTY so far for me though (much higher skill level than Marquez-Concepcion), it was thrilling and congratulations to Ortiz, I'm glad that he proved me right (yes go back & read my input in the Ortiz is a quiter thread).
Definately agree with that. Berto's brother should have been told to shut the fuck up before the fight started, never mind during the fight, so on that, I'd say the correct communication between them isn't there.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
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Originally Posted by
Hulk
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Originally Posted by
el kabong
did you miss tyson's corner when he fought douglas? They didn't even have ice to stop the swelling, they just had a fucking water balloon.
I have yet to watch the fight(ortiz-berto), but i've heard it was exciting, and i was not surprised by the result at all.
bullshit !
Bullshit what? Aaron Snowell did jack crap in that fight...granted Tyson wasn't listening anyway but hell the least he could do is ACT like a trainer that gives a damn
I'm calling bullshit on you saying you were not surprised at all by the result Mr. Know it all.
We were all surprised by what a great great fight it was, and most of us were quite shocked Ortiz won.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Worst instructions ever were Pepe Correra to Lennox, "go out and knock out this bum" at the interval of round 1. :)
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
Hulk
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Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
el kabong
did you miss tyson's corner when he fought douglas? They didn't even have ice to stop the swelling, they just had a fucking water balloon.
I have yet to watch the fight(ortiz-berto), but i've heard it was exciting, and i was not surprised by the result at all.
bullshit !
Bullshit what? Aaron Snowell did jack crap in that fight...granted Tyson wasn't listening anyway but hell the least he could do is ACT like a trainer that gives a damn
I'm calling bullshit on you saying you were not surprised at all by the result Mr. Know it all.
We were all surprised by what a great great fight it was, and most of us were quite shocked Ortiz won.
....hey man, check my posts...just prior to the bout happening I said "I think Ortiz wins by stoppage" or something to that effect.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
It's very easy to tell when a corner is being carried by the talent of their fighter rather than the skills of the trainer. Because when that fighter gets in trouble the corner doesn't know what to do. I swore I was gonna change the channel if I heard his corner say "It's so simple." or "when you box its so beautiful, thats all you got to do" Then he'd go out there and lose a round trying to box he'd go back to his corner and it was "that was beautiful, see when you box its easy. Just keep doing that." It's times like that I wish Manny was in his corner doing this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn4pTT3WkHo
or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0gAolHBuws
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Bertos corner was too existant if anything. In the middle of a fight listening to one guy is hard enough. But having four or five people including your promoter barking orders at you is just plain retarded. His trainer and only his trainer should've been in control of that corner. They seem to have that guy there as a figure and his family there yelling over the poor guy. He wasn't given bad advice by the guy who was supposed to be giving it. It was the hundred other or so assholes in between rounds causing the problems
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
Mar
Bertos corner was too existant if anything. In the middle of a fight listening to one guy is hard enough. But having four or five people including your promoter barking orders at you is just plain retarded. His trainer and only his trainer should've been in control of that corner. They seem to have that guy there as a figure and his family there yelling over the poor guy. He wasn't given bad advice by the guy who was supposed to be giving it. It was the hundred other or so assholes in between rounds causing the problems
Absolutely right...a good working corner should have 1 at most 3 people talking and that would be #1 The Head Trainer #2 The fighter and #3 if need be a translator as in the case with Povetkin and Atlas.
The less people talking the better and great trainers know that sometimes you talk and sometimes you listen, fighters can give information that sometimes you wouldn't understand or see unless you were in the ring. Trainers are also there to amp up or chill out a fighter...some guys fight good when they are emotionally charged up and others don't
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
Mar
Bertos corner was too existant if anything. In the middle of a fight listening to one guy is hard enough. But having four or five people including your promoter barking orders at you is just plain retarded. His trainer and only his trainer should've been in control of that corner. They seem to have that guy there as a figure and his family there yelling over the poor guy. He wasn't given bad advice by the guy who was supposed to be giving it. It was the hundred other or so assholes in between rounds causing the problems
Semantics really because too existent equals nonexistent in this case.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Seeing chaos like that always makes me second guess cameras in the corner, at least the in your face fashion. Swear half the time guys are putting on shows for it, spinning a good light etc. Don't think it would have made Bertos more professional but certainly has to put 100% focus on the fighter unravling before everyones eyes.
Berto needs a major change in all concerned if he's going to regroup and reclaim, tip of the iceberg I think.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Seeing chaos like that always makes me second guess cameras in the corner, at least the in your face fashion. Swear half the time guys are putting on shows for it, spinning a good light etc. Don't think it would have made Bertos more professional but certainly has to put 100% focus on the fighter unravling before everyones eyes.
Berto needs a major change in all concerned if he's going to regroup and reclaim, tip of the iceberg I think.
Exactly.
Not only were they all giving him bad or pedestrian advice but he had everybody yapping at him at the same. He must of felt like he was in the middle of a noise sandwich. His trainer should have taken charge and done what he is paid to do. It’s like he was worried about being fired if he dared to be a trainer. The first order of business would have been to tell everybody else to shut their pie-hole. Too many is the same as nobody.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
i love roger mayweather...."kick his ass, box him, kick his ass."
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
Boxer4life
i love roger mayweather...."kick his ass, box him, kick his ass."
Floyd. The only fighter on the planet that could fight w/o a trainer. Got any quotes from Castillo/Floyd 1?
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boxer4life
i love roger mayweather...."kick his ass, box him, kick his ass."
Floyd. The only fighter on the planet that could fight w/o a trainer. Got any quotes from Castillo/Floyd 1?
I totally disagree.
As completely ironic as it sounds, Floyd has already been quoted as being grateful for the cohesive boxing insight that he and his uncle & father share.
I can't remember what fight it was (might of been the Mosley fight?) but Mayweather had again said something like ''I could hear My Uncle giving me advice, I turned to my Father and he was giving me the exact same advice. I have a great team.''
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Boxer4life
i love roger mayweather...."kick his ass, box him, kick his ass."
Floyd. The only fighter on the planet that could fight w/o a trainer. Got any quotes from Castillo/Floyd 1?
I think Roy Jones Jr on his day didn't needa trainer, but I think there comes points in time where any fighter would need help.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
TitoFan
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
I have never seen a corner that disengaged, delirious and nonfunctional at this level in 40 years of following the sport. I'm sure their are others if I thought about it but Berto should shit can the entire lot imo.
Agreed, although Felix Trinidad's corner (particularly his dad) during his fight with Winky Wright fight should merit an "Honorable Mention", at least. Papa Trinidad seemed clueless, and offered no alternate plans for Tito to follow.
Yup no plan B. Shame as Tito was a good boxer earlier in his career which he rarely gets credit for. The moment his bone crushing power was discovered they abandoned boxing and began the plodding. I was a huge Tito fan, hell still am. Never liked the father son teams. Jack Mosley is another father who had no business in a corner.
Uncle-nephew combos sometimes don't do so well, either. Cotto had his uncle in there for awhile, until they had a falling out. Then Cotto inexplicably hired Joe Santiago (?!?!?) as his trainer, until he came to his senses (and lost to Pac), and hired Emanuel Stewart. Best thing he could've done.
Judah: Zab and Yoel... Look what his dumb-ass father and PBFs uncle did for them 4-5 years ago. Perfect example of how family can hold you back. If he had two guys who gave a shit about their fighters and not just family machismo, they would have let their fighters settle up in the ring.. Not fight as trainers in the ring! Nobody is paying to see that.
You know.. if any time Zabs corner should have erupted is when he fought Cotto. Cotto fought one of the dirtiest fights I had ever whitnessed against Zab.
Berto's brother is s F***ing moron. He would just repeat whatever the trainer said, but with a different emphasis. He clearly knows nothing about boxing.
Berto needs to go back and figure out who his core people are when fight night comes around. All things considered I don't think he could win that fight sitting on the ropes like he was anyway. But maybe if he had a real cornerman he would get told not to do that.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
Boxer4life
i love roger mayweather...."kick his ass, box him, kick his ass."
Floyd. The only fighter on the planet that could fight w/o a trainer. Got any quotes from Castillo/Floyd 1?
I totally disagree.
As completely ironic as it sounds, Floyd has already been quoted as being grateful for the cohesive boxing insight that he and his uncle & father share.
I can't remember what fight it was (might of been the Mosley fight?) but Mayweather had again said
something like ''I could hear My Uncle giving me advice, I turned to my Father and he was giving me the exact same advice. I have a great team.''
I was partly joking and partly serious. If their is a fighter today that could get by w/o a trainer its Floyd. In a Barry Sanders never needed an offensive line coach, Jordan never needed someone to bounce the ball for him and Gretzky never needed Sather to show him how to handle a puck kinda way.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
.... rodger and floyd do what most fighters should. Most of the work is already done before the ringwalk. Floyd does need rodger....just not to coach him on things he's already taken care of in camp. On the flip side most fighters are in there without a trainer for what it's worth. I've heard guys like berto's trainer this past sat, b mcgirt, even judah's dad and teddy altlas give great advice in the corner that mid-as-well have gone right into a brick wall for as much as they listen. nacho is the same a rodger. Listen to him coach marquez against floyd. First he let's him drink pee pee then in the ring with all the advice dude could have used he tells him "Be lively, move, he's hitting you too much plus other worthless garbage yet he's supposidly this great trainer. Same with nazim against floyd, he gave great advice and shane went out and did the same crap he did the round before. Bottom line don't let your hate of floyd cloud you judgement, rodger is no worse or better than the rest of them depending on how you look at it. It's the fighters who take or leave the advice, by the time they roll in the ring the cut and water guy are probably more important the night of. But i've never boxed so maybe i don't know anything.
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Just watched the fight....brilliant fight. I hope Ortiz keeps this winning attitude, he was a warrior in there. Berto seemed flat from the get go, like he was just going to walk through Ortiz.
As for Berto's corner...the trainer told Andre nothing, Andre's brother was awful...he wouldn't shut up and he gave bad advice "just pump the jab"...vs a southpaw?!?!? HELLOOO!!! Meanwhile Ortiz's corner was on the mark "I told you we don't want to throw that 1 punch by itself...follow up" great advice and bar some defensive lapses Ortiz fought a perfect fight.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Not a peep on direction. Boxing 101. Next time just pay the janitor 100 bucks to pose as a trainer.
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Just watched the fight....brilliant fight. I hope Ortiz keeps this winning attitude, he was a warrior in there. Berto seemed flat from the get go, like he was just going to walk through Ortiz.
As for Berto's corner...the trainer told Andre nothing, Andre's brother was awful...he wouldn't shut up and he gave bad advice "just pump the jab"...vs a southpaw?!?!? HELLOOO!!! Meanwhile Ortiz's corner was on the mark "I told you we don't want to throw that 1 punch by itself...follow up" great advice and bar some defensive lapses Ortiz fought a perfect fight.
It was fight of the year. Agree ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Just watched the fight....brilliant fight. I hope Ortiz keeps this winning attitude, he was a warrior in there. Berto seemed flat from the get go, like he was just going to walk through Ortiz.
As for Berto's corner...the trainer told Andre nothing, Andre's brother was awful...he wouldn't shut up and he gave bad advice "just pump the jab"...vs a southpaw?!?!? HELLOOO!!! Meanwhile Ortiz's corner was on the mark "I told you we don't want to throw that 1 punch by itself...follow up" great advice and bar some defensive lapses Ortiz fought a perfect fight.
It was fight of the year. Agree ?
EASILY! Great great match, I think a rematch would be as good maybe even better! Both Ortiz and Berto landed with great power and frequency and I was AMAZED that Ortiz got up from that knockdown in the 6th. That is exactly what people want to see out of the heavyweights!
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Re: Berto's corner was nonexistent
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hulk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Just watched the fight....brilliant fight. I hope Ortiz keeps this winning attitude, he was a warrior in there. Berto seemed flat from the get go, like he was just going to walk through Ortiz.
As for Berto's corner...the trainer told Andre nothing, Andre's brother was awful...he wouldn't shut up and he gave bad advice "just pump the jab"...vs a southpaw?!?!? HELLOOO!!! Meanwhile Ortiz's corner was on the mark "I told you we don't want to throw that 1 punch by itself...follow up" great advice and bar some defensive lapses Ortiz fought a perfect fight.
It was fight of the year. Agree ?
EASILY! Great great match, I think a rematch would be as good maybe even better! Both Ortiz and Berto landed with great power and frequency and I was AMAZED that Ortiz got up from that knockdown in the 6th. That is exactly what people want to see out of the heavyweights!
Glad we agree on something.
A lot of posters on here do not agree it was fight of the year since the fight kind stagnated after the 6th. But I fell that it was a truely exciting and compelling fight to watch LIVE and easily fight of the year.
Yes and David Haye is gonna give it to them ! ;D
