Anything after Ruiz doesn't count for me. That's just my opinion of course.
RJJs resume aint great, but the way he beat Toney and McCallum to name a couple, shows me that he was no 'hype job'.
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Anything after Ruiz doesn't count for me. That's just my opinion of course.
RJJs resume aint great, but the way he beat Toney and McCallum to name a couple, shows me that he was no 'hype job'.
I think after the 'golden era' hvys were coming off of they were due for a let down. But at the end of the day credit to Leonard, Hearns, Duran and company...they were just that good. I think they would demand the spotlight in any era.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
and you really only had so many greats because of the lack of interest in the heaviesQuote:
Originally Posted by MattyhitmanJones has alot in his favour too. First man and only man, to move up from middleweight to heavyweight and capture titles on his way up, voted fighter of the decade, and held more titles than anyone else at one time.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
that is very easy to say
were you around in the srl era to really asses?
leanard lost to a man naturally a couiple fo weights below him, i really couldnt see that ever happening to jones
End of the day ya can only beat whats put in front of you. Leonard was fortunate he was around at a time when we had several other greats to compare him against and each other.
everyone turned to the lower weights for the entertainment
im not saying they werent great fighters who had great battles im just saying they are better remembered and got more exposure because nobody cared for the big fellas
Rivalry sells big time.
Lots of things saw the exposure, massive was the explosion of 'free' network coverage every weekend. Leonard was basically a free agent early on bouncing around where Jones hit big prominence and literally became a one network man. Both rode the early Olympic hype & medals out of respected years but Leonard and company also saw the boycott of 80, which may have helped keep focus on them.
It was definately a cracking mix of top level fighters all there at thee same time and kind of headlined by leonard
Im not denying that
If pac and mayweather would of got it on a couple of times and there was maybe another fighter in the mix then maybe we would have that kind of situation now
Like you say tho the olympics, the boycott, the tv, the lack of heavies, the mix of fighters, the comeback by leonard, rocky balboa, all made it a very rememberable era and that will influence the vast majority of people to vote srl when asked this question
And perhaps he deserves it for his contribution, lb4lb tho id say jones would have taken it peak v peak
Jones was awesome, was leonard ever quite as awesome?
Your love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAre you serious ? honestly thats absolute garbage, the reason he lost is because he was 35 year's old, and dropped a huge amount of weight. Tarver, Johnson, are stiffer competition than fighters like Toney ? Hopkins ? Hill ? really ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
And didn't SRL also get destroyed by Terry Norris ? and he was younger than RJJ and was coming off a one sided win over Robert Duran.
RJJ winning the Heavyweight title was no great achievement ? it hadn't been done in a century and John Ruiz was coming over flooring a good version of Evander Holyfield. But according to you its not a great achievement.
Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.
[QUOTE=Galaxy;1020619][QUOTE=Mars_ax;1020611]I can honestly say I never once bought one of RJJ's suckass PPV's.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyI sort of get what your saying, but just because Jones wasn't really tested doesn't mean he didn't have any defining fights, I mean Toney was considered a top p4p guy when they fought, Hopkins wasn't the finished product he became but was still dangerous. When he fought Tarver the 1st time I think that was Tarver at his best. Age caught up with Jones & because he never had great fundamentals to begin with once he slowed down he started getting caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
You can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYour love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAre you serious ? honestly thats absolute garbage, the reason he lost is because he was 35 year's old, and dropped a huge amount of weight. Tarver, Johnson, are stiffer competition than fighters like Toney ? Hopkins ? Hill ? really ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
And didn't SRL also get destroyed by Terry Norris ? and he was younger than RJJ and was coming off a one sided win over Robert Duran.
RJJ winning the Heavyweight title was no great achievement ? it hadn't been done in a century and John Ruiz was coming over flooring a good version of Evander Holyfield. But according to you its not a great achievement.
Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.
Gosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYour love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.
Is it possible to choose one over the other without it being perceived as a diss on the other? RJJ was a remarkable talent, probably an ATG. But SRL's list of opponents stands head and shoulders above RJJ's. Not a slight on Roy, just telling it like it is.
Younger fans who have never seen any SRL footage will find it hard to comprehend... but there was life before RJJ, Tyson, and all the rest.
Bro ICB is just saying what everyone else is thinking. You don't have to like the guy & most of us have said Leonard is higher. But Jones was brilliant at his best! You say you never saw any defining fights but others have mentioned his wins of Toney, HOF McCallum, HOF bound Hopkins, Tarver when Jones was already on the slide. You don't consider those defining? I agree that some of his opposition wasn't stella but you mention Tarver who had already his ass handed to him by Harding who Jones owned! Give credit where credit is dueQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axGosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYour love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAre you serious ? honestly thats absolute garbage, the reason he lost is because he was 35 year's old, and dropped a huge amount of weight. Tarver, Johnson, are stiffer competition than fighters like Toney ? Hopkins ? Hill ? really ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axThe "Great" Jones Jr had his moments early his career, but I never saw any real "defining" fights, or moving up in weight and outpointing Journeyman HW Chumpion John Ruiz as any great accomplishment. Once Jones' unorthodox style was figured out and the competition got stiffer, he started getting his ass handed to him, first by Tarver, then by Glenn Johnson. I look at a fighters entire career and Roy Jones Jr. turned out to be an overhyped PPV premadona, who got exposed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HThat really surprises me mate. Surely you must be basing some of that on the Taver fights and since? Looking at him up to and including Ruiz, it would be very hard not to have him at least top 20 IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
And didn't SRL also get destroyed by Terry Norris ? and he was younger than RJJ and was coming off a one sided win over Robert Duran.
RJJ winning the Heavyweight title was no great achievement ? it hadn't been done in a century and John Ruiz was coming over flooring a good version of Evander Holyfield. But according to you its not a great achievement.
Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.
Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.
You, ICB, el al, are welcome to your opinions, and however "ridiculous" they may seem to you, I have mine. I can think of at least 100 Pugs i'd put ahead of RJJ on my all-time list, being "hate and bias", have fuck all to do with it.Quote:
Bro ICB is just saying what everyone else is thinking. You don't have to like the guy & most of us have said Leonard is higher. But Jones was brilliant at his best! You say you never saw any defining fights but others have mentioned his wins of Toney, HOF McCallum, HOF bound Hopkins, Tarver when Jones was already on the slide. You don't consider those defining? I agree that some of his opposition wasn't stella but you mention Tarver who had already his ass handed to him by Harding who Jones owned! Give credit where credit is due.
That's cool cuz, but your the one calling ICB names for having his?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Question: Have you actually seen Jones/ Toney? If not you should watch it. Toney was considered one of the best in the sport at that time, I'm not sure what you think of Toney but even today he is commended for still having some of the best technical abilities. Jones owned him! You can have Jones anywhere you like on your list but the fact is Jones was an amazing talent in his prime!
Jones did feed on alphabet ranking cannon fodder but also gets full props for Hopkins, Toney and Hill. McCallum was just about spent at lt hvy and Jones clearly carried him. Toney lost it on the scale and Jones got in his head, he looked like he gave it up to me. Thats on him. Credit Jones jr. Jones was easy to dispise but he did get some scalps and cred. Were they Leonard like, nope. Not here.
Not for his opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyThat's cool cuz, but your the one calling ICB names for having his?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Question: Have you actually seen Jones/ Toney? If not you should watch it. Toney was considered one of the best in the sport at that time, I'm not sure what you think of Toney but even today he is commended for still having some of the best technical abilities. Jones owned him! You can have Jones anywhere you like on your list but the fact is Jones was an amazing talent in his prime!
Perhaps Jones was "amazing" until he got figured out.
You don't think age caught up with him? As it does with everyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axNot for his opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyThat's cool cuz, but your the one calling ICB names for having his?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Question: Have you actually seen Jones/ Toney? If not you should watch it. Toney was considered one of the best in the sport at that time, I'm not sure what you think of Toney but even today he is commended for still having some of the best technical abilities. Jones owned him! You can have Jones anywhere you like on your list but the fact is Jones was an amazing talent in his prime!
Perhaps Jones was "amazing" until he got figured out.
Again its very easy to say leonard had better opponents but in general did he really?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
The era is massively hyped
Are you serious ? your the one that needs to get over yourself, your the one getting annoyed and flustered over nothing. To not put RJJ in an ATG top 100 list is a joke, that's not an opinion that's just plain hating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axGosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYour love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.
Not many fighters have achieved what RJJ did, or have dominated the way he did. Based on accomplishments and his dominant performances, aswell as just plain natural talent he's easily top 100 and actually he's more like top 50. And had he retired after John Ruiz fight he'd be rated even higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Again its very easy to say leonard had better opponents but in general did he really?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
The era is massively hyped
Yeah, you're probably right. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran, Thomas "Hitman" Hearns, Marvin "Marvelous" Hagler, Wilfredo "El Radar de St. Just" Benitez...... massively hyped indeed.
:11fb8:
Jones was just 34 when he fought Tarver the 1st time, not exactly ancient eh? And he's still fighting 8 years later at age 42. It could just be that he didn't train as hard as he used to, who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyYou don't think age caught up with him? As it does with everyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axNot for his opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyThat's cool cuz, but your the one calling ICB names for having his?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Question: Have you actually seen Jones/ Toney? If not you should watch it. Toney was considered one of the best in the sport at that time, I'm not sure what you think of Toney but even today he is commended for still having some of the best technical abilities. Jones owned him! You can have Jones anywhere you like on your list but the fact is Jones was an amazing talent in his prime!
Perhaps Jones was "amazing" until he got figured out.
Prior to the 2nd Tarver fight, because of unorthodox style, solid defense, and the fact that he stayed on offense most of time, it was very hard to get a clean flush shot in on RJJ. Jones Jr. achilles heel turned out to be his china chin, Tarver was just the first to expose it.
Just think how good Jones must have been then that no one knew he had no chin for over a decade spanning from 154 to heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axJones was just 34 when he fought Tarver the 1st time, not exactly ancient eh? And he's still fighting 8 years later at age 42. It could just be that he didn't train as hard as he used to, who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyYou don't think age caught up with him? As it does with everyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axNot for his opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyThat's cool cuz, but your the one calling ICB names for having his?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Question: Have you actually seen Jones/ Toney? If not you should watch it. Toney was considered one of the best in the sport at that time, I'm not sure what you think of Toney but even today he is commended for still having some of the best technical abilities. Jones owned him! You can have Jones anywhere you like on your list but the fact is Jones was an amazing talent in his prime!
Perhaps Jones was "amazing" until he got figured out.
Prior to the 2nd Tarver fight, because of unorthodox style, solid defense, and the fact that he stayed on offense most of time, it was very hard to get a clean flush shot in on RJJ. Jones Jr. achilles heel turned out to be his china chin, Tarver was just the first to expose it.
First off, you may think it's a joke, but it's my ATG list, so I can put anyone I bloody well please, and where on it, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAre you serious ? your the one that needs to get over yourself, your the one getting annoyed and flustered over nothing. To not put RJJ in an ATG top 100 list is a joke, that's not an opinion that's just plain hating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axGosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYour love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.
Not many fighters have achieved what RJJ did, or have dominated the way he did. Based on accomplishments and his dominant performances, aswell as just plain natural talent he's easily top 100 and actually he's more like top 50. And had he retired after John Ruiz fight he'd be rated even higher.
"if he'd just retired" can be said about a lot of fighters, the fact is Jones didn't retire after Ruiz, and all the losses, and KO loses since then have tarnished his "legacy".
[QUOTE=Galaxy;1020840][QUOTE=Mars_ax;1020837]Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyJust think how good Jones must have been then that no one knew he had no chin for over a decade spanning from 154 to heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axJones was just 34 when he fought Tarver the 1st time, not exactly ancient eh? And he's still fighting 8 years later at age 42. It could just be that he didn't train as hard as he used to, who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyYou don't think age caught up with him? As it does with everyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Prior to the 2nd Tarver fight, because of unorthodox style, solid defense, and the fact that he stayed on offense most of time, it was very hard to get a clean flush shot in on RJJ. Jones Jr. achilles heel turned out to be his china chin, Tarver was just the first to expose it.
I've never said he wasn't good, just not the "god" all you RJJ fanboys make him out to be.
So you actually have a top 100 list and don't have RJJ in it ? please i'd love to see the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axFirst off, you may think it's a joke, but it's my ATG list, so I can put anyone I bloody well please, and where on it, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAre you serious ? your the one that needs to get over yourself, your the one getting annoyed and flustered over nothing. To not put RJJ in an ATG top 100 list is a joke, that's not an opinion that's just plain hating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axGosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYour love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.
Not many fighters have achieved what RJJ did, or have dominated the way he did. Based on accomplishments and his dominant performances, aswell as just plain natural talent he's easily top 100 and actually he's more like top 50. And had he retired after John Ruiz fight he'd be rated even higher.
"if he'd just retired" can be said about a lot of fighters, the fact is Jones didn't retire after Ruiz, and all the losses, and KO loses since then have tarnished his "legacy".
And what about SRL's gift decision vs Tommy Hearns, or his one sided loss to Terry Norris doesn't that tarnish his legacy either ?
Yes I do, my top 100 ATG's starts before Jim Jefferies was HW Champion, and includes all weight divisions up through the modern era, and no, you can't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axFirst off, you may think it's a joke, but it's my ATG list, so I can put anyone I bloody well please, and where on it, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAre you serious ? your the one that needs to get over yourself, your the one getting annoyed and flustered over nothing. To not put RJJ in an ATG top 100 list is a joke, that's not an opinion that's just plain hating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axGosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYour love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.
Not many fighters have achieved what RJJ did, or have dominated the way he did. Based on accomplishments and his dominant performances, aswell as just plain natural talent he's easily top 100 and actually he's more like top 50. And had he retired after John Ruiz fight he'd be rated even higher.
"if he'd just retired" can be said about a lot of fighters, the fact is Jones didn't retire after Ruiz, and all the losses, and KO loses since then have tarnished his "legacy".
So you actually have a top 100 list and don't have RJJ in it ? please i'd love to see the list.
And what about SRL's gift decision vs Tommy Hearns, or his one sided loss to Terry Norris doesn't that tarnish his legacy either ?
As for Leonard's legacy, it's all good, have a great day ICB.. ;D
Lol, what fighters do you like Mars?
It's hard to assess Jones career in large part, because we really don't know when his skills started to diminish and to what extent, or whether moving back down in weight was really as devestating as is often made out.
For me this excuse is kind of trumped by the fact that he looked a lot fresher in the first round of the Tarver rematch than he did in any of their first fight. He simply got caught with a great punch, but also one of the only truly great punches he'd been hit with in a long time, and it knocked him silly. He clearly never had the same confidence in his abilities after this, whether they were there or not. Leonard in his prime fought the kind of opposition that you can't go without being hit by, and sure enough proved to be extremely durable all the way through. I think SRL is more of a concrete entity for this reason, you have a reasonable idea about how he might have fared against certain guys he didn't fight, which isn't so much the case with Roy imo.
Often times with slick fighters it's once they lose a step that you start to see how tough they really were, Pernell Whittaker for example proved that he had a hell of a chin against Trinidad, nobody could've guessed whether he would stand up to that kind of punishment before the fact.
I want to see that list copy and paste it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYes I do, my top 100 ATG's starts before Jim Jefferies was HW Champion, and includes all weight divisions up through the modern era, and no, you can't see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBSo you actually have a top 100 list and don't have RJJ in it ? please i'd love to see the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axFirst off, you may think it's a joke, but it's my ATG list, so I can put anyone I bloody well please, and where on it, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAre you serious ? your the one that needs to get over yourself, your the one getting annoyed and flustered over nothing. To not put RJJ in an ATG top 100 list is a joke, that's not an opinion that's just plain hating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axGosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYou can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axYour love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.
Not many fighters have achieved what RJJ did, or have dominated the way he did. Based on accomplishments and his dominant performances, aswell as just plain natural talent he's easily top 100 and actually he's more like top 50. And had he retired after John Ruiz fight he'd be rated even higher.
"if he'd just retired" can be said about a lot of fighters, the fact is Jones didn't retire after Ruiz, and all the losses, and KO loses since then have tarnished his "legacy".
And what about SRL's gift decision vs Tommy Hearns, or his one sided loss to Terry Norris doesn't that tarnish his legacy either ?
As for Leonard's legacy, it's all good, have a great day ICB.. ;D
all great fighters all around at the same time made for a great era which all added to the hypeQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44Again its very easy to say leonard had better opponents but in general did he really?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
The era is massively hyped
Yeah, you're probably right. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran, Thomas "Hitman" Hearns, Marvin "Marvelous" Hagler, Wilfredo "El Radar de St. Just" Benitez...... massively hyped indeed.
:11fb8:
toney, jones, hopkins, mccallum all as good, just around when there were other distractions in boxing
listen man, that era was unforgettable im not denying it, but you mention 4 fighters, did leonard only win fights against these boxers? are all of his other opponents better than all of jones' too?
[QUOTE=Mars_ax;1020846][QUOTE=Galaxy;1020840]I'm no Jones fanboy bro, I was one of his biggest critics while he was feasting on so called #1 contenders at 175. But I recognize the skills the guy had, the work he done & like ICB said had he retired he would have been very high regarded in ATG terms. So his legacy has been tarnished due to his continuing & losing but it doesn't detract from the fact that at his best Jones was great & easily a top 100 ATGQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axQuote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyJust think how good Jones must have been then that no one knew he had no chin for over a decade spanning from 154 to heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axJones was just 34 when he fought Tarver the 1st time, not exactly ancient eh? And he's still fighting 8 years later at age 42. It could just be that he didn't train as hard as he used to, who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyYou don't think age caught up with him? As it does with everyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Prior to the 2nd Tarver fight, because of unorthodox style, solid defense, and the fact that he stayed on offense most of time, it was very hard to get a clean flush shot in on RJJ. Jones Jr. achilles heel turned out to be his china chin, Tarver was just the first to expose it.
I've never said he wasn't good, just not the "god" all you RJJ fanboys make him out to be.
I'd be interested in seeing your top 100 list too if you could find the time
Calzaghe would have smashed these two to peices in his prime in the 90s and early 2000s x x x x x
Thanks for the laugh broQuote:
Originally Posted by Phillips
I don't quite buy that Erics. Even in peak form Hopkins was never in the same universe as a Hearns or Benitez if you're talking about talent. Given that he was basically an amateur against Roy I don't rate that as a great win or performance. McCallum was flat out past it although obviously still very good and a threat to anyone else, but same goes for me. Toney is the real enigma on Jones resume, he was a great fighter no question but truly did look like shit against Roy.. How much of that had to do with being weight drained as opposed to thrown off by RJJs athletecism is hard to know imo. It is possible that Roy was truly good enough to put great fighters into a trance like that, but had he faced talent equivalent to what SRL did it's hard to imagine he wouldn't have gotten tagged at least a bit, and that's where it becomes anyones guess. I don't think anyone would tell you with a straight face that they wouldn't rank Jones as a better fighter IF he had retired at some point before he lost, but despite what effect you think weight loss or whatever else had on him the fact is we do know he was nowhere near as tough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44all great fighters all around at the same time made for a great era which all added to the hypeQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44Again its very easy to say leonard had better opponents but in general did he really?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
The era is massively hyped
Yeah, you're probably right. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran, Thomas "Hitman" Hearns, Marvin "Marvelous" Hagler, Wilfredo "El Radar de St. Just" Benitez...... massively hyped indeed.
:11fb8:
toney, jones, hopkins, mccallum all as good, just around when there were other distractions in boxing
listen man, that era was unforgettable im not denying it, but you mention 4 fighters, did leonard only win fights against these boxers? are all of his other opponents better than all of jones' too?
Leonard's other opponents were nothing extraordinary, but I disagree with your assessment about Toney, Hopkins, McCallum being just as good. I think p4p may have already given a good explanation on why. Distractions? There's always distractions in boxing. Not a justifiable argument. I'm not dumping on Roy's skill or potential, had he faced fighters of the level that SRL did.... (and very close to their peaks, I might add). But much like the Klitschkos.... he didn't. He dominated, but mostly against very forgettable opposition. No "fights for the ages", like SRL-Duran, SRL-Hearns, SRL-Benitez. You can't just assume that ALL boxing eras are comparable in terms of quality fighters. It's just not true.
so we agree that all the everyday opponents they fought were equal yes?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44all great fighters all around at the same time made for a great era which all added to the hypeQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44Again its very easy to say leonard had better opponents but in general did he really?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
The era is massively hyped
Yeah, you're probably right. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran, Thomas "Hitman" Hearns, Marvin "Marvelous" Hagler, Wilfredo "El Radar de St. Just" Benitez...... massively hyped indeed.
:11fb8:
toney, jones, hopkins, mccallum all as good, just around when there were other distractions in boxing
listen man, that era was unforgettable im not denying it, but you mention 4 fighters, did leonard only win fights against these boxers? are all of his other opponents better than all of jones' too?
Leonard's other opponents were nothing extraordinary, but I disagree with your assessment about Toney, Hopkins, McCallum being just as good. I think p4p may have already given a good explanation on why. Distractions? There's always distractions in boxing. Not a justifiable argument. I'm not dumping on Roy's skill or potential, had he faced fighters of the level that SRL did.... (and very close to their peaks, I might add). But much like the Klitschkos.... he didn't. He dominated, but mostly against very forgettable opposition. No "fights for the ages", like SRL-Duran, SRL-Hearns, SRL-Benitez. You can't just assume that ALL boxing eras are comparable in terms of quality fighters. It's just not true.
so its down to who is better - duran, hearns, hagler, benitez or Hopkins, Toney, mcallum, taver
I personally think if you put any of those fighters in with each other at their peaks and lb4lb it will be a very close fight, very hard to pick winners
so its down to how srl and rjj dealt with them
leonards carear was undoubtably full of closer fights and more excitement and at a time where the lighter fighters got more exposure so against bigger names
So if the question is whos career i would like to relive, it would be leonards without a doubt
Jones was more dominant tho, looked unbeatable at a time and had a lot less trouble with his opponents than leonard did
so if you ask me who i think would win if the two fought, I would put my money on jones
People, can we not just assume that they're about the same then no?
Roy was probably a more physically gifted guy but Ray was absolutely rock solid fundamentally.
For me their resume's are about the same. I'd have to dislike one of em to actually split them apart.
I also give the edge to Leonard in a department Jones lacks and needs to learn. Willingness to retire, mutiple times.
Leonard is my pic ;D
Roy hasn't retired because he doesn't want to leave dat money behind, he still gets a million + for his shit performances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Well at least he'll be a well payed statistic. Should buy him more than enough apple sauce for that straw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axRoy hasn't retired because he doesn't want to leave dat money behind, he still gets a million + for his shit performances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I'm surprised Roy still speaks as well as he does, he's been lucky so far. I know one thing, if he continues to fight, and/or take shots upside the head at age 42, he's gonna end up like SRR, Ali, Quarry, Meldrick Taylor, et al. He's probably already got 'some' brain damage, sometimes it just takes a while to show up, Ali's didn't show up until prior to the Holmes fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliWell at least he'll be a well payed statistic. Should buy him more than enough apple sauce for that straw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axRoy hasn't retired because he doesn't want to leave dat money behind, he still gets a million + for his shit performances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli