JMM was THEE mandatory challenger to Naz... Naz ducked him for a long time.
That is a fact.
Emmanuel Steward (RIP) admitted to telling Naz and advising to steer clear from him and not fight him and Naz listened.
That is also a fact.
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JMM was THEE mandatory challenger to Naz... Naz ducked him for a long time.
That is a fact.
Emmanuel Steward (RIP) admitted to telling Naz and advising to steer clear from him and not fight him and Naz listened.
That is also a fact.
Fenster?
I believe you're up.
Well I do need it explained to me?
How does someone saying a fighter would win a fight mean the other guy ducked him?
And how the fuck can a fighter be "ducking" someone that is on record admitting they refused the fight?
(beyond stupid)
Ah... temper, temper.
Go back and read post 41. Then let me know if there's something in there you did not understand.
Go on now...
Come on guys, kicking pac while he is down?
Naz is soft compare to jmm. Jmm had to survive over 40 rounds to catch pac with a perfect counter.
I dont think naz survives 5 rounds with pac.
The questions in post 43 were directly related to the replies in posts 40 and 41.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Want to have a go at answering the questions? Or you waiting for Mick?
It is a fact, but it only paints part of the picture. Naz was a superstar, and as such cherry picked opponents that would make big fights. Luis Abregu is number one contender for Mayweather's title, but I won't be accusing Mayweather of ducking him if they never fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
I'm a huge Marquez fan, but I'm not kidding myself that he was the same fighter in the late nineties that he became a few years later. Marquez didn't win a world title until after Naz retired. Marquez has stated himself many times that he became more aggressive later in his career because he threw away fights.
If I had to place a bet, I'd put it on Naz to beat a pre 2000 Marquez.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobthepenIt is a fact, but it only paints part of the picture. Naz was a superstar, and as such cherry picked opponents that would make big fights. Luis Abregu is number one contender for Mayweather's title, but I won't be accusing Mayweather of ducking him if they never fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
I'm a huge Marquez fan, but I'm not kidding myself that he was the same fighter in the late nineties that he became a few years later. Marquez didn't win a world title until after Naz retired. Marquez has stated himself many times that he became more aggressive later in his career because he threw away fights.
If I had to place a bet, I'd put it on Naz to beat a pre 2000 Marquez.
Sadly though that is far to complex for some fans to understand. Some can't even accept that a fighter who says "I turned down the fight" actually turned it down. Hilarious/Madness.
That's because one fighter has a history of fighting the GREAT fighters of his era and the other, to put it mildly... doesn't.
Call me crazy, but when it comes to opposing stories, I am more likely to side with the guy who didn't retire after having fought and widely lost to the single truly elite that he ever faced.
If Hamed left a better legacy then I might be more open to your cries of avoidance.
Ouch! That had to hurt.
Once again.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXoNE14U_zM
Marquez being superior to Naz is irrelevant. That's a given.
All you have to do is - explain how a fighter has "ducked" someone that refused to fight them? That's it.
@TitoFan - your immature responses are not hiding your lack of knowledge. Either answer the question or accept you were wrong. There's no shame in being wrong. Fact.
CutMeMick and AdamGB have both refuted your silly theory that the inferior Naz was somehow ducked by the much greater JMM. I've yet to see your answers to them. Why is that, Fen?
Where have they? Copy and paste their arguments that prove Marquez DID NOT refuse a fight with Naz?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Then show me what my "silly theory" is?
There's numerous interviews and articles by credible people stating unequivocally that Hamed ducked Marquez for months, when Marquez was the mandatory challenger. And we have your shaky, unsubstantiated "evidence" that Marquez somehow ducked Hamed.... a theory ridiculed by most here on the forum. All because it suits your dubious agenda of pushing the "greatness" of Hamed, a talented fighter who inexplicably decided to retire after getting humiliated by the only elite fighter he ever faced.
The burden of proof is on you, mod.
But I enjoy these periodic arguments over the same tired old theory.
It puts a bit of a smile on my face.
:)
Everything in the ring is a recipe for disaster, if you lose! I'm not trying to take anything away from Marquez, that was as good a one punch KO as anyone will ever see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Would you consider that Manny was trying to steal the round in the last 10 seconds and got careless. Would you consider that Marquez knew Manny would do that very thing and after, I don't know how many rounds over I don't know how many years finally put it all together to bring about a terrific KO.
Wouldn't any boxing fan expect one or the other of them to figure how to finish off the other guy after that many rounds over that many years.
"Shaky and unsubstantiated evidence?"Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I'm the one that can unequivocally prove Marquez turned down the fight. You want proof?
Exhibit 1 - Marquez admits he turned down Hamed - LAS VEGAS RJ:SPORTS: Featherweight Marquez said no to H...
Exhibit 2 - Nacho Beristain (trainer/manager) admits he turned down Hamed - LAS VEGAS RJ:SPORTS: Featherweight Marquez said no to H...
Exhibit 3 - Antonio Curtis, Marquez former matchmaker, admits they turned down Hamed. "What happened is this, they called us when we had already signed for another fight and then they wanted us to fight Hamed, Curtis recalled, of those events. Now, I wanted to pull that fight, to fight Hamed. But Nacho said no. He would've gotten a half-million for the fight and Nacho turned that fight down." Max Boxing - Steve Kim
Exhibit 4 - HBO confirm Marquez turned down Hamed - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPcD-WVZpyQ&feature=player_embedded
1. Explain how my evidence is unsubstantiated? 2. Explain what my "silly theory" is? 3. Explain how you're scared of someone you offer a fight?
All you have is - Marquez was Hamed's mandatory. Have I ever disputed that obvious fact? No. There are dozens and dozens of mandatory challengers that never get the champion.
No.... all I have ISN'T that Marquez was Hamed's mandatory. Do you selectively pick and choose what you want to read and blatantly ignore everything else?
Did you not READ and HEAR what credible sources, including Emanuel Steward, had to say about Hamed ducking Marquez for TWO YEARS?
Did you read the reasons why Marquez turned down Hamed after Hamed finally offered him a fight?
Do those circumstances constitute "ducking" to you?
Honestly... you sit out there, all alone in "Hamed Island"... trying to convince the rest of the world that it was Marquez ducking Hamed, when it was always the other way around. You periodically dredge up the same old tired subject, a telling fact in itself. If it really had been as you claim... you wouldn't feel the need to keep dredging it up and boring all of us with the same song and dance, now would you. ;)
You pick and choose your "backup data", blatantly ignoring the true facts. Why? Because Hamed's sudden "no mas" from boxing hurt you like nothing had apparently hurt you before. It's ok dude. No one's ridiculing Hamed anymore. (Well.... only when he talks about comebacks between bites of his double cheeseburger).
You're a forceful and sometimes mocking argumentator. When the truth is on your side... there's no stopping you. But in this case? You come across pitifully, trying to convince the world... who by the way has long since moved on from Hamed.... that it was Marquez ducking Naseem.
Hello-o-o-o-o-o-o-o! Is anybody out there-e-e-e-e-e-e?
Sorry, dude.
I've crossed out the irrelevant bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
First off, I didn't bring up "ducking" in this thread. Now...
1. Manny Steward NEVER said Hamed ducked Marquez. He said whilst working with Hamed I recommended not fighting Marquez. Do you know why? Because Steward believed Barrera and especially Morales, two far bigger names at the time, were "easy" fights for Hamed. He is on record saying that. And who was Hamed's trainer when Marquez was offered the fight? That's right, Manny Steward. You have been confused by a 5 second snippet taken out of context.
2. What credible sources? In the video you posted, one of the journalists is Doug Fischer. He said - "Hamed had a lot to lose against Marquez." That's it. He doesn't say ANYTHING about "ducking." The other journalist said "Naz ducked him." That's all you've got. ONE journo saying Naz ducked him. Evidence? Because Marquez was his mandatory. That is the ONLY evidence available. A Mandatory challenger didn't get a shot at the champion. Laughable.
3. Regardless of the reasons Marquez had for turning down Naz it PROVES he was offered a fight. It PROVES he turned down a massive career high payday. It PROVES Naz WASN'T scared of him.
4. I've provided evidence from Marquez, his trainer/manager, his matchmaker, HBO, Jim Lampley, Larry Merchant and boxing journalist Steve Kim. You provided evidence of ONE journalist saying "Hamed ducked him"?
Now who's evidence looks the most "shaky and unsubstantiated?"
You can cross out shit... you can delete... you can edit... you can do whatever you want. You have mod powers. But you can't escape the truth. And I'll take your post apart point by point.
1. You yourself said Steward considered Barrera and Morales "easy" fights for Hamed. Translation: Marquez was NOT an easy fight. Translation: Steward encouraged Hamed to duck Marquez. Next.
2. Ok let's split hairs. Although everyone else clearly alluded to Hamed ducking Marquez, only one actually used the right words. Ok you win. :rolleyes: Meanwhile, no one ever accused Marquez of ducking Hamed. Only you, hardly an authority. Next.
3. Marquez was offered a fight after trying UNSUCCESSFULLY to land a fight with Hamed for TWO YEARS. Then, using the head games that handlers and promoters are prone to play, they make an offer to Marquez under circumstances they know Marquez will refuse. It's all explained by credible people. I don't need and will not rehash the details. And let's get one thing straight. The fact that Hamed's people (not Hamed) offered Marquez a fight under dubious circumstances and timing, does NOT prove Hamed wasn't scared of Marquez. Hamed had plenty of time to accept fight offers from Marquez. He chose not to. Next.
4. (see 1 through 3 above)
HOW was he "ducking" Marquez when he offered him a career high purse which Marquez then REJECTED??
Naz was not a ducker ... he fought higher ranked opponents than Marquez during his reign at the top ... Marquez was never seen as anyone special then
Naz was always willing and even waiting to fight any of the Mexicans ... Marquez was never anything until the Pac fights and that is really all that he has to his name. Losing to Pac 3 straight times before finally getting a victory while clearly on enhancement drugs.
He would've knocked Marquez out.
@TitoFan - You can cross words out too, It's nothing to do with being a mod, it's a simple posting option.
1. Steward encouraged Hamed to "duck" Marquez but also encouraged him to fight him. He was his trainer when the fight was offered, so obviously wasn't as scared of Marquez as that 5 second clip led you to believe.
2. You've pulled a 60 second clip from a documentary focused on highlighting and praising Marquez career. They are hardly going to go into details about Marquez later refusing to fight Naz. Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant both agreed in the video I provided that - "Marquez turning down Naz makes it look like he's scared of getting beat up." Are they "authority" enough?
3. What "credible" people said Marquez got a shitty bogus offer? I've given evidence of his own matchmaker criticising him and Nacho Beristain for refusing the fight. HBO were dumbfounded that he refused the fight. Doug Fischer, one of the journos from your video, criticised Marquez for not taking the fight, along with lots of other journos. Marquez fought Daniel Jimenez ONE week after he refused the Naz fight/date. There were no excuses. The only question to answer is - why did Marquez turndown $500,000 for $5000 a week later? Why?
4. Show me the evidence, as I've provided you, of Marquez making offers to fight Naz? Show me what purses Naz turned down? Show me some dates? Venues?
As much as I'd like to stay and debate this longer today... I'm afraid I have other engagements. But let me just comment on your points. I'll gladly come back later or tomorrow and continue debating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Ok you lost me here. Steward encouraged Hamed to duck Marquez but also encouraged him to fight him??? Ok whatever. Unfortunately, a "5-second clip" is all I have to go by. If you have a clip of Steward encouraging Hamed to fight Marquez, please share it. Although it still won't prove Hamed wasn't scared of Marquez.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
For someone with an infatuation with the word "fact", you sure have some ill-conceived conception of what facts are. It's only a fact that Lampley and Merchant said it LOOKS like Marquez is scared by turning down Naz. Does that translate into a fact that Marquez was in fact scared of Naz? I hope you say "No" to that. It's a video of the interpretation of what two sportscasters thinks it looks like that Marquez turned down Naz under circumstances they are not privy to.
Hamed had two years to fight Marquez..... TWO YEARS. And Marquez is supposed to drop everything and take a fight without proper preparation because Hamed's people suddenly grow a pair of balls (or get tired of being accused of ducking Marquez) and throw Marquez an offer when Marquez was already set to fight someone else?
C'mon. The fight game is all about posturing and one-upping the other. That's why Pac and Floyd have never fought and probably never will. Maybe it's not even due to "ducking" as we all like to say. Maybe it's just the damn posturing and one-upping between the fighters camps. "No... it's not when you say... it's when I say." That kind of shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
My option must be defective..... I used to be able to do it, but haven't been able to for a long time. You wouldn't mind a helpful hint to a fellow saddo'er, would you?
Not sure who was ducking who but Marquez lost his chance when he was beat by Norwood. Before that he was in line for a shot.
@TitoFan - you click the reply button and then look for this ABC and click it.
I've backed up everything I said with evidence from numerous sources. I have provided dates, purses, fighters, trainers, managers, matchmakers, TV companies, commentators and journalists.
Your "evidence" consists of one lone journalist saying "Naz ducked Marquez"
Lets put this to bed... just provide evidence of Marquez making offers to fight Naz (as you claimed)? Show me what purses Naz turned down? Show me some dates? Was Marquez going to England?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Ok Fenster... I'm trying the crossout feature. It's not a real crossout... just a test. :)
Look... here's an article on the subject.
LAS VEGAS RJ:SPORTS: Featherweight Marquez said no to H...
Make of it what you will. Personally, I think it's completely wrong to claim that Marquez ducked Hamed. Turning down a fight and giving specific reasons as to why does not constitute ducking. As I said before... the fight game's all about posturing, seeing who can their terms over the other guy. Marquez had no reason to duck Hamed, something that was made painfully obvious when Naseem faced Barrera and was humiliated.
Someone posted a a few posts back that Marquez wasn't anyone and that the Pac fights is all he has to his name. A bit of an ignorant post, I think, because Marquez was much more than that. He was the mandatory challenger, and I still haven't seen a documented explanation as to why he was never offered a fight during those two years when he was the mandatory. That's all I'm saying.
P.S. - Ok, I see the crossout feature worked... thanks. Also, I realize you had posted the same link a while back. I think we're just interpreting it differently. You feel it says Marquez ducked Hamed, whereas I don't see that.
I agree with you 100% @TitoFan - "Turning down a fight and giving specific reasons as to why does not constitute ducking"
Just like saying a fighter "ducked" another without a single shred of evidence that any negotiations ever took place doesn't constitute ducking either. We only have evidence that Marquez turned down an offer from Naz. You now agree with all my sources that said Marquez had "no reason" to turn the fight down. However, he did, and that's why boxing "experts" were surprised and criticised him.
I only ever say Marquez ducked Naz in response to people claiming Naz ducked Marquez. There's no evidence so it's bogus and silly. I'm just revealing the facts and truth. That's all. I don't favour either fighter.
So basically what we're weighing in on here is turning down one date against not fighting your manditory for two years?
That, coupled with their legacies shows me that one may have been less willing to fight than the other. ;)
Based on the evidence provided in this thread marquez turned down a career high purse to fight naz, to me thats a duck!
I just spotted over a hundred people viewing this thread? Pac fights still get the Filipinos buzzing
Forget the "buzzing Filipinos"!!!! I just found the Saddo equivalent of the lost scrolls! An actual civilized argument about whether JMM ducked Naz between Fenster and I. :o :o :o
Where oh where did it all go so wrong? :D :D :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Ok Fenster... I'm trying the crossout feature. It's not a real crossout... just a test. :)
Look... here's an article on the subject.
LAS VEGAS RJ:SPORTS: Featherweight Marquez said no to H...
Make of it what you will. Personally, I think it's completely wrong to claim that Marquez ducked Hamed. Turning down a fight and giving specific reasons as to why does not constitute ducking. As I said before... the fight game's all about posturing, seeing who can their terms over the other guy. Marquez had no reason to duck Hamed, something that was made painfully obvious when Naseem faced Barrera and was humiliated.
Someone posted a a few posts back that Marquez wasn't anyone and that the Pac fights is all he has to his name. A bit of an ignorant post, I think, because Marquez was much more than that. He was the mandatory challenger, and I still haven't seen a documented explanation as to why he was never offered a fight during those two years when he was the mandatory. That's all I'm saying.
P.S. - Ok, I see the crossout feature worked... thanks. Also, I realize you had posted the same link a while back. I think we're just interpreting it differently. You feel it says Marquez ducked Hamed, whereas I don't see that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Would I be right in thinking we've actually had a few new members over the last week or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The Manny fans are fickle and only come around when he fights.Suprised walrus has hung around this long. He will leave when Pace Man retires.Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanWould I be right in thinking we've actually had a few new members over the last week or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
...but @Master will never leave because Floyd will always be in the spotlight!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterThe Manny fans are fickle and only come around when he fights.Suprised walrus has hung around this long. He will leave when Pace Man retires.Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanWould I be right in thinking we've actually had a few new members over the last week or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I was always a bit of a Naz fan. His fights were huge over here and generated lots of excitement, he was very rarely in a boring snooze fest.
He was a hugely unorthodox fighter, like many Wincobank fighters were, and he had truly freakish power.
However, and I have said this before, his pure talent made him cut corners and his technique was flawed. He had to set his feet for big shots, he was off balance most of the time and he had no defence apart from his reflexes.
We saw what Barrera did to him, and I think that Marquez does the same. Paquiao, with his blistering speed and angles would have overwhelmed Naz I fear
A peak Naz beats Marquez, Barrera and Pac Man. His reflexes and power were second to none.
Back in the day we had so many Pac fans here (Filipinos) we had to give them their own board. Seems mental now but that was before twitter and all that lark murdered the forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanWould I be right in thinking we've actually had a few new members over the last week or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The actual fight nights would bust the site everytime.
How does a peak Naz beat all of the above. I’m curious as to your line of thinking regarding Barrera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Naz won the featherweight title late 1995 against Steve Robinson to eventually losing to Barrera 2001 he was dominate with the occasional lapse mainly later in those years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraHow does a peak Naz beat all of the above. I’m curious as to your line of thinking regarding Barrera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Naz reflexes, speed, power, unorthodox style and timing made him unify and become the best featherweight in the division.
The peak Naz would have out boxed and out worked Barrera once he realised he could not knock him out. Naz had more variety in his game early on and as his relationship deteriorated with Ingle the less he trained and more he relied on his power. Naz became one dimensional by the time he faced MAB who exposed him for that.
Bullshit! Naz and Barrera were the same age (27) and just about peaking. Naz's unorthodox style was exposed by Barrera and once Barrera did this he went on to give Naz a boxing lesson.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterNaz won the featherweight title late 1995 against Steve Robinson to eventually losing to Barrera 2001 he was dominate with the occasional lapse mainly later in those years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Primo CarneraHow does a peak Naz beat all of the above. I’m curious as to your line of thinking regarding Barrera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Naz reflexes, speed, power, unorthodox style and timing made him unify and become the best featherweight in the division.
The peak Naz would have out boxed and out worked Barrera once he realised he could not knock him out. Naz had more variety in his game early on and as his relationship deteriorated with Ingle the less he trained and more he relied on his power. Naz became one dimensional by the time he faced MAB who exposed him for that.
I don't want to diss Naz too much because for his size he had freakish strength, and was highly popular and sought after in the Boxing World , hence topping bills in Vegas and earning shitloads of dough. And as far as British Boxers go , he is up there on the all time list.
But on a World level , and comparing to the other names you mentioned, I think you're being at best disrespectful to them and at worst downright fucking delusional!
I'm aware of the "Naz got too big for his boots , leaving Ingle" theory, but that is just an easy out.
admit it, before the Naz/Barrera fight, you had Naz as a massive favourite? this shows that he wasn't "on the slide" as much as you make out.
Barrera simply exposed him and schooled him. People at the top end of the Boxing tree knew that this was possible.
Your fucking mate, a very young Floyd was hounding Naz's connections for a fight for years , even offering to come down in weight for a catchweight contest. Because he could see that he would've tied an unorthodox Naz up in knots.
Don't take my word for it , rewatch the fight.