ANTHONY JOSHUA easy question to answer really.
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ANTHONY JOSHUA easy question to answer really.
He doesn't excite me. He seems like a more effective clubber that's Frank Bruno-esque, or like a younger and more mobile Oliver McCall. Nothing sexy about him and his fight style, at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashup
What he can do is WIN. And win he can.
Make no mistake, Wlad when he was younger, was helluva exciting. It was only when Wlad got old and started to be cautious with his chin is when he got boring as hell.
Deontay Wilder is EXCITING. A little provocative too. He sparks interest. Intrigue. Something more we have to see from Wilder- especially from the way he wins. He makes you feel that he can get into a few exciting scraps at HW.
Joshua doesn't give you that. Not at all.
You mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque
His personality is also too bland.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamajaHe doesn't excite me. He seems like a more effective clubber that's Frank Bruno-esque, or like a younger and more mobile Oliver McCall. Nothing sexy about him and his fight style, at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashup
What he can do is WIN. And win he can.
Make no mistake, Wlad when he was younger, was helluva exciting. It was only when Wlad got old and started to be cautious with his chin is when he got boring as hell.
Deontay Wilder is EXCITING. A little provocative too. He sparks interest. Intrigue. Something more we have to see from Wilder- especially from the way he wins. He makes you feel that he can get into a few exciting scraps at HW.
Joshua doesn't give you that. Not at all.
It's BOXING not professional wrestling I don't personally give 1 single fuck about if someone is entertaining in interviews or whatever as long as they are good in the ring!Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Anthony Joshua is a little stiff, he'll have to watch his stamina with his style.
Of course his ability is too bland. And it isn't Professional Wrasslin', but a little charisma would do wonders for your pockets- as well as flare.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIt's BOXING not professional wrestling I don't personally give 1 single fuck about if someone is entertaining in interviews or whatever as long as they are good in the ring!Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Anthony Joshua is a little stiff, he'll have to watch his stamina with his style.
That flare and charisma shows confidence. That confidence shows in and out of the ring. Draws people to you to a large degree.
He certainly won't win over heaps and heaps of fans as the title of this thread is asking for the next SUPERSTAR. Real!
You have to be able to sell a fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIt's BOXING not professional wrestling I don't personally give 1 single fuck about if someone is entertaining in interviews or whatever as long as they are good in the ring!Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Anthony Joshua is a little stiff, he'll have to watch his stamina with his style.
Look at the difference between Andre Ward and Carl Froch. Ward is the better boxer but Froch has the audiences and purses.
How about we just get a guy who can perform in the ring and judge him on that? They don't need to cut promos and be a cult of personality. I'm a boxing fan, I care about the ability a boxer shows rather than how he does during an interview. I support fighters not infomercial salesmen!
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque
Oh dear.
Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!
I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.
I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Well... the question says "next".
Technically, Canelo was already handed that title back.... what.... 40 fights ago?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamajaOf course his ability is too bland. And it isn't Professional Wrasslin', but a little charisma would do wonders for your pockets- as well as flare.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIt's BOXING not professional wrestling I don't personally give 1 single fuck about if someone is entertaining in interviews or whatever as long as they are good in the ring!Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Anthony Joshua is a little stiff, he'll have to watch his stamina with his style.
That flare and charisma shows confidence. That confidence shows in and out of the ring. Draws people to you to a large degree.
He certainly won't win over heaps and heaps of fans as the title of this thread is asking for the next SUPERSTAR. Real!
Utter bullshit
Joshua fought in Glasgow a few months back and the noise as he walked to the ring was amazing as if he were the home fighter.
That very rarely happens to an English fighter.
Everybody in the UK knows his face from the London Olympics and people genuinely like him.
What he's done so far in the ring is highly entertaining as he's battered everyone he's faced in style.
I've said since he won the gold medal that if he can take a punch then boxing and England has a new Superstar.
Crawford-Mikey Garcia winner would hold some clout :) maybe one of these young Jr-Middles like Julian Williams or Errol Spence :-\
Can you expound on the "etc., etc.,"??? I challenge you or anyone else on this forum to name elite, HOF level fighters that Tyson beat. Look at the three you named: Holmes was past his best and fighting without a tune up, Spinks who was a great light heavy but undersized at heavy n had beaten 3 other guys at the weight, and BIGGS. Tyrell Biggs?!? Here's a clue: when you are standing up for a guy's quality of opposition and you have to include Tyrell Biggs as one of his top 3 wins, don't send that post. I like Mike Tyson and I think he gets treated unfairly regarding his personal life, but zit is just a known fact that Mike feasted on a pathetic division. He never beat a prime fighter on the level of Evander, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad...etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque
Oh dear.
Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!
I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.
I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!
England also used to cheer Gavin Rees... and are in love with Frampton and Quigg. They do not cross-over to the international community. Calzaghe, for as good as he was, didn't cross over to international appeal.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamajaOf course his ability is too bland. And it isn't Professional Wrasslin', but a little charisma would do wonders for your pockets- as well as flare.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIt's BOXING not professional wrestling I don't personally give 1 single fuck about if someone is entertaining in interviews or whatever as long as they are good in the ring!Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Anthony Joshua is a little stiff, he'll have to watch his stamina with his style.
That flare and charisma shows confidence. That confidence shows in and out of the ring. Draws people to you to a large degree.
He certainly won't win over heaps and heaps of fans as the title of this thread is asking for the next SUPERSTAR. Real!
Utter bullshit
Joshua fought in Glasgow a few months back and the noise as he walked to the ring was amazing as if he were the home fighter.
That very rarely happens to an English fighter.
Everybody in the UK knows his face from the London Olympics and people genuinely like him.
What he's done so far in the ring is highly entertaining as he's battered everyone he's faced in style.
I've said since he won the gold medal that if he can take a punch then boxing and England has a new Superstar.
You have the lowest expectations and ideas of a Superstar.
I know you say you are a Tyson fan and yet again I say to you he can only beat what is in front of him. What he did was smash these fighters and the way he beat them indicates that even a prime Holyfield (whenever that was), Wlad, Vlad, Lewis ect would at least been beaten. It was the way he did it, people can count on one hand the times he was hit hard. He was a superstar for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodCan you expound on the "etc., etc.,"??? I challenge you or anyone else on this forum to name elite, HOF level fighters that Tyson beat. Look at the three you named: Holmes was past his best and fighting without a tune up, Spinks who was a great light heavy but undersized at heavy n had beaten 3 other guys at the weight, and BIGGS. Tyrell Biggs?!? Here's a clue: when you are standing up for a guy's quality of opposition and you have to include Tyrell Biggs as one of his top 3 wins, don't send that post. I like Mike Tyson and I think he gets treated unfairly regarding his personal life, but zit is just a known fact that Mike feasted on a pathetic division. He never beat a prime fighter on the level of Evander, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad...etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque
Oh dear.
Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!
I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.
I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!
You could easily pick holes over who they beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodCan you expound on the "etc., etc.,"??? I challenge you or anyone else on this forum to name elite, HOF level fighters that Tyson beat. Look at the three you named: Holmes was past his best and fighting without a tune up, Spinks who was a great light heavy but undersized at heavy n had beaten 3 other guys at the weight, and BIGGS. Tyrell Biggs?!? Here's a clue: when you are standing up for a guy's quality of opposition and you have to include Tyrell Biggs as one of his top 3 wins, don't send that post. I like Mike Tyson and I think he gets treated unfairly regarding his personal life, but zit is just a known fact that Mike feasted on a pathetic division. He never beat a prime fighter on the level of Evander, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad...etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque
Oh dear.
Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!
I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.
I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!
Which elite HOF fighters did Lewis beat? He drew with Holyfield and then got gifted a decision in the rematch. Struggled with Mercer and was very lucky to get the decision. Holmes won clearly against mercer. The same Holmes that Tyson smashed 4 years earlier. He got knocked out by mikes sparring partner;D the same sparring partner that again, Holmes should have got a decision over. he got knocked out by Rahman;D
Holyfield... Bowe? Who did Bowe beat? He got pushed to 12 rounds by a fighter that Mike bounced off the canvas;D
Bowe... Holyfield and no one else. He got battered by golota who Tyson made quit! He got taken rounds and hurt by Herbie Hide;D He was gifted a decision against Tubbs another old Tyson opponent who Mike wiped the floor with.
Now tell me the best wins each of those has and how its any better than anything Mike could have done.
Wlads best win? He's up there for longevity but he has no HOF stand out wins either. That shouldnt detract from his career because there was no one else good enough to beat him. (Has plenty of KO losses during his "prime" though.) Same as Mike in the eighties. He was too good. He didn't get dropped, or wobbled or draw, or gifted decisions. There was no dispute over who the best was and he avoided no one in the top ten.
Eubank jr is one on the up if he can put up his power.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Holyfield: beat prime Bowe (undefeated), Tyson, Michael Moorer, Buster Douglas, Ray Mercer, Foreman (past prime), and drew (should've lost) and lost (should've won) against Lennox.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossYou could easily pick holes over who they beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodCan you expound on the "etc., etc.,"??? I challenge you or anyone else on this forum to name elite, HOF level fighters that Tyson beat. Look at the three you named: Holmes was past his best and fighting without a tune up, Spinks who was a great light heavy but undersized at heavy n had beaten 3 other guys at the weight, and BIGGS. Tyrell Biggs?!? Here's a clue: when you are standing up for a guy's quality of opposition and you have to include Tyrell Biggs as one of his top 3 wins, don't send that post. I like Mike Tyson and I think he gets treated unfairly regarding his personal life, but zit is just a known fact that Mike feasted on a pathetic division. He never beat a prime fighter on the level of Evander, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad...etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque
Oh dear.
Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!
I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.
I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!
Which elite HOF fighters did Lewis beat? He drew with Holyfield and then got gifted a decision in the rematch. Struggled with Mercer and was very lucky to get the decision. Holmes won clearly against mercer. The same Holmes that Tyson smashed 4 years earlier. He got knocked out by mikes sparring partner;D the same sparring partner that again, Holmes should have got a decision over. he got knocked out by Rahman;D
Holyfield... Bowe? Who did Bowe beat? He got pushed to 12 rounds by a fighter that Mike bounced off the canvas;D
Bowe... Holyfield and no one else. He got battered by golota who Tyson made quit! He got taken rounds and hurt by Herbie Hide;D He was gifted a decision against Tubbs another old Tyson opponent who Mike wiped the floor with.
Now tell me the best wins each of those has and how its any better than anything Mike could have done.
Wlads best win? He's up there for longevity but he has no HOF stand out wins either. That shouldnt detract from his career because there was no one else good enough to beat him. (Has plenty of KO losses during his "prime" though.) Same as Mike in the eighties. He was too good. He didn't get dropped, or wobbled or draw, or gifted decisions. There was no dispute over who the best was and he avoided no one in the top ten.
Lennox: beat Tua, Evander (past prime), Vitali, Tyson (past prime), Rahman, Grant, Mercer, Golota (destroyed past prime but prior to Tyson), Ruddock (post Tyson but more convincingly).
Bowe: Seldon, Prime Evander, Coetzer, Cooper, Gonzalez, Herbie Hide (how many knock downs again?!?), Larry Donald and Golota.
Tyson: Holmes, Spinks (prime ?), Tubbs, Mitch Green, Trevor Berbick, Marvis Frazier, Tony Tucker (prime), Greg Page, Golota, Seldon, Bruno, bone crusher smith, ferguson, tyrell Biggs, Carl Williams.
Looking at those names, in my opinion, Tyson had superior competition to Bowe (but Bowes win over Evander trumps any win for Tyson), but inferior to both Evander and Lennox. Tyson losing to Douglas is equally ugly to Evanders loss to Moorer and Lennox losing to Rahman n Oliver. Lewis and Evander both avenged those losses convincingly, and Tyson did not. I would also argue that Mike was back to form, a 15-1 favorite and Evander was not what he was during his prime when they fought. Evander took mike apart and anyone who says that would've gone differently at any point of either guys' career is kidding themselves or just delusional.
Tyson fighting Holyfield in 88/89 would have been a great time for Tyson to win.
Mike Tyson was a victim of his own massive success in his post prison career.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodHolyfield: beat prime Bowe (undefeated), Tyson, Michael Moorer, Buster Douglas, Ray Mercer, Foreman (past prime), and drew (should've lost) and lost (should've won) against Lennox.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossYou could easily pick holes over who they beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodCan you expound on the "etc., etc.,"??? I challenge you or anyone else on this forum to name elite, HOF level fighters that Tyson beat. Look at the three you named: Holmes was past his best and fighting without a tune up, Spinks who was a great light heavy but undersized at heavy n had beaten 3 other guys at the weight, and BIGGS. Tyrell Biggs?!? Here's a clue: when you are standing up for a guy's quality of opposition and you have to include Tyrell Biggs as one of his top 3 wins, don't send that post. I like Mike Tyson and I think he gets treated unfairly regarding his personal life, but zit is just a known fact that Mike feasted on a pathetic division. He never beat a prime fighter on the level of Evander, Bowe, Lewis, Wlad...etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou mean the Tyson that was fighting such dangerous foes as Mike Jameson, David Jaco, Sammy Scaff, Marvis Frazier, and Steve Zouski? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonesque
Oh dear.
Hell, let's throw Tyson's amateur opponents in there as well shall we? How far back in time are going? What about before he started boxing? He hadn't beaten anyone then!
I was (obviously) thinking of the Tyson who beat everyone he fought, including Holmes, Spinks, Biggs etc etc. But no, let's judge him on the guys he fought as an up and coming novice. That always how fighters are judged.
I mean that Ali guy was good, but who did he beat in his first ten fights? Overrated fraud!
Which elite HOF fighters did Lewis beat? He drew with Holyfield and then got gifted a decision in the rematch. Struggled with Mercer and was very lucky to get the decision. Holmes won clearly against mercer. The same Holmes that Tyson smashed 4 years earlier. He got knocked out by mikes sparring partner;D the same sparring partner that again, Holmes should have got a decision over. he got knocked out by Rahman;D
Holyfield... Bowe? Who did Bowe beat? He got pushed to 12 rounds by a fighter that Mike bounced off the canvas;D
Bowe... Holyfield and no one else. He got battered by golota who Tyson made quit! He got taken rounds and hurt by Herbie Hide;D He was gifted a decision against Tubbs another old Tyson opponent who Mike wiped the floor with.
Now tell me the best wins each of those has and how its any better than anything Mike could have done.
Wlads best win? He's up there for longevity but he has no HOF stand out wins either. That shouldnt detract from his career because there was no one else good enough to beat him. (Has plenty of KO losses during his "prime" though.) Same as Mike in the eighties. He was too good. He didn't get dropped, or wobbled or draw, or gifted decisions. There was no dispute over who the best was and he avoided no one in the top ten.
Lennox: beat Tua, Evander (past prime), Vitali, Tyson (past prime), Rahman, Grant, Mercer, Golota (destroyed past prime but prior to Tyson), Ruddock (post Tyson but more convincingly).
Bowe: Seldon, Prime Evander, Coetzer, Cooper, Gonzalez, Herbie Hide (how many knock downs again?!?), Larry Donald and Golota.
Tyson: Holmes, Spinks (prime ?), Tubbs, Mitch Green, Trevor Berbick, Marvis Frazier, Tony Tucker (prime), Greg Page, Golota, Seldon, Bruno, bone crusher smith, ferguson, tyrell Biggs, Carl Williams.
Looking at those names, in my opinion, Tyson had superior competition to Bowe (but Bowes win over Evander trumps any win for Tyson), but inferior to both Evander and Lennox. Tyson losing to Douglas is equally ugly to Evanders loss to Moorer and Lennox losing to Rahman n Oliver. Lewis and Evander both avenged those losses convincingly, and Tyson did not. I would also argue that Mike was back to form, a 15-1 favorite and Evander was not what he was during his prime when they fought. Evander took mike apart and anyone who says that would've gone differently at any point of either guys' career is kidding themselves or just delusional.
He was out of boxing for 4 years and was declining before that. He was washed up. His name and reputation proceeded him and still carried weight.
Your trying to tell me the fighter who struggled with Cooper would have got passed the prime Tyson that beat Holmes? The same Holmes that gave a prime Holyfield a far more difficult fight than he could ever have hoped to give a prime Tyson?
Heres another view. The Holmes that took Holyfield 12 rounds. What would have happened in a fight between that Holmes and Tyson who lost to Holyfield?
It would have been a much different outcome right?
Thats because Mike Tyson was a much different fighter by then. Certainly not because after another 4 years that Holmes got any better.
Also, I can pick massive holes in your list of opponents that Holyfield faced. Mercer? He lost to Holmes that Tyson beat. Michael Moorer? The only decent name that Foreman could knockout, Foreman was even getting beaten up b A.ex Stewart who Tyson wiped his ass with.
Lennox over Tua? And? Who didn't beat Tua? Event Monte Fucking Barrett beat Tua! Grant? Again, who didnt?
Bowe? That list is a joke.
Pretty piss poor using actual opponents names because there are massive holes to be picked everywhere.
I think the point most try to make by naming all these "HOF" fighters that other champs faced is more to do with consistency but then even that is ridiculous because tell me, which one of Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis and Wlad have held all the main titles together for as ling as Tyson did? Thats real domination. Being THE only man in the division and being able to do that in just 3 years!
People forget in just three years that Mike beat Berbick, smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno and Williams. 3 were defending champions, another was the lineal champ, another was a hall of famer that went on to beat Mercer and extend Holyfield etc. Had he had the same slow schedule of Holyfield and Lewis in later years maybe people wouldn't be so dismissive?
Every single thread always comes back to Mike Tyson and just how fucking unbeatable he was in his "prime" an era so mysterious people can't pin it down to an actual date :shakehead:
Was Mike Tyson a great boxer?
YES
Did Mike Tyson have a tough era?
HELL NO!
Back to the question at hand: Who will be the next boxing superstar?
NOT MIKE TYSON!!!!
BS.... Tyson for Holmes's left overs to a large degree, but Holmes's leftovers weren't slouches. Many of them went on to hold titles or be seriously dangerous contenders.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Tyson also had really tough guys that went on to long careers- wasn't until Bowe and Holyfield came along, most notably Bowe, who separated what a real HW champion should be and be dominant at it.
Bowe should have never fought Holyfield the second time around, now looking back at it.
Guys BOTH Holmes and Tyson fought: Holyfield, Michael Spinks, Carl Williams, James 'Bonecrusher' Smith, Marvis Frazier, and Trevor Berbick. That's it and to be honest Holmes did better vs Holyfield and better vs Smith which can't be argued.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamaja
Tyson did NOT fight other guys that gave Holmes a hard time: Snipes, Witherspoon, Shavers, Norton either because they retired, drugs ruined their careers, or they never recaptured their form which earned them the shots vs Holmes but the point is Mike Tyson didn't have a great era of difficult fighters and when real fighters entered his division they took over.
Bowe's career peaked and plummeted while Tyson was in prison now had Tyson actually fought him what would have happened? We can speculate but the fight never happened. Look at the records of Holyfield and Lewis and see the names they fought which Tyson chose not to fight or just avoided for some reason. He could have had a lot more interesting than oh Tyson vs: Orlin Norris, Julius Francis, Lou Savarese, Brian Nielsen.
After prison, after Holyfield, Mike Tyson never tried to be "the baddest man on the planet" in terms of boxing ability. He was a sideshow, an act, and though semi-successful at boxing while doing that he never really took on a true test other than Ruddock, Holyfield, and Lewis after losing to Douglas.
You mean other than obliterating Spinks?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGuys BOTH Holmes and Tyson fought: Holyfield, Michael Spinks, Carl Williams, James 'Bonecrusher' Smith, Marvis Frazier, and Trevor Berbick. That's it and to be honest Holmes did better vs Holyfield and better vs Smith which can't be argued.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamaja
Tyson did NOT fight other guys that gave Holmes a hard time: Snipes, Witherspoon, Shavers, Norton either because they retired, drugs ruined their careers, or they never recaptured their form which earned them the shots vs Holmes but the point is Mike Tyson didn't have a great era of difficult fighters and when real fighters entered his division they took over.
Bowe's career peaked and plummeted while Tyson was in prison now had Tyson actually fought him what would have happened? We can speculate but the fight never happened. Look at the records of Holyfield and Lewis and see the names they fought which Tyson chose not to fight or just avoided for some reason. He could have had a lot more interesting than oh Tyson vs: Orlin Norris, Julius Francis, Lou Savarese, Brian Nielsen.
After prison, after Holyfield, Mike Tyson never tried to be "the baddest man on the planet" in terms of boxing ability. He was a sideshow, an act, and though semi-successful at boxing while doing that he never really took on a true test other than Ruddock, Holyfield, and Lewis after losing to Douglas.
Forgot about him didnt you;)
;D
Its painful to read Tyson bashing when putting comparisons out there. When would lewis have been to much for a prime Tyson? When he struggled against Mercer who Holmes best comfortably? Got knocked out by Mikes sparring partner? Got knocked out by Rahman?
This is the thing, both Holyfield and Lewis never had a long consistent dominant period where they didn't have some kind of problem with some kind of opponent that a fighter as quick and dangerous as that Mike Tyson wouldn't have been able to capitalise on. The man that beat Holmes twice couldn't even get out of the first round with Mike. An older Holmes beat Mercer, pushed Holyfield and was robbed against McCall but he couldn't get to the half way point with that Mike.
:rolleyes: .....again :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Lewis actually FOUGHT Ray Mercer....Mike Tyson did NOT.
Oliver McCall had his moments in sparring with Mike Tyson as well...how would the figth have gone? We don't know as Mike Tyson NEVER FOUGHT McCall.
Hasim Rahman...how would Tyson have done against him? Well that's a good question as he's YET ANOTHER HEAVYWEIGHT MIKE TYSON DID NOT FIGHT!
Older Holmes blah blah blah blah....maybe Lennox Lewis should have fought the great Buster Douglas :shakehead:
Lennox Lewis fought David Tua and beat him handily how did Tyson do vs ....oh that's right he DIDN'T FIGHT HIM!
Evander fought Riddick Bowe 3 times how did he do vs ....OH THAT'S RIGHT TYSON DIDN'T FIGHT HIM!
Evander fought Michael Moorer twice how did Tyson do vs...DIDN'T FUCKING FIGHT HIM EITHER!
Now of course being the Tyson Retard you are you'll no doubt say "Well Tyson would have KO'd all of them, he was God in human form when he boxed" completely looking past the flaws of his style, personal life, and psyche.
Mike Tyson was a different era.
The fact his old opponents he wiped the floor with can go in to the nineties and have good success over people that were supposedly fighters who could handle Mike shows how good Mike was.
When Lewis beat Tyson it was 16 years after Mike had won his first world title.
When Joe louis lost to Marciano it was only 14 years later. Different eras.
Evander had a much rougher career anmore wear and tear than Tyson when they fought. He was also older. They were definitely from the same era, since that is so important to u. Tyson was, by his own admission, back to his best and destroying guys like Bruno more convincingly than he had in his prime. Evander was coming off a lackluster performance (which he was known for vs guys he felt were not a threat like HOLMES) and many feared for his safety. Evander dominated Tyson and broke his will just like he would have at any pinky in Tyson's career. Evander is easily a level above Mike Tyson as was Lennox Lewis.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
That second part is interesting? Who? Ok Holmes schools an over confident and ill advised Mercer...much like a Damiani had prior save for a single punch. Holmes pulled out every inch of shook & jive craft, guile and sharp jab to go 12 with Holyfield and then vomit all over his cornermen and self..literally, but by no means was that close. Holmes was also totally outjabbed and gifted a win vs Quinn Navarre, likewise twice out on his feet to Jesse Fergusson. Tucker made Douglas quit on his stool..certainly didn't translate into Tucker topping Tyson next or proving Douglas incapable of out boxing and beating Tyson. I don't think Lewis or Holyfield having tough fights and negative results speaks to Tysons mythical superiority "in his prime" but rather to each fighters level of competition and competiveness. Oh and often lost..Holyfield kicked Tysons ass..twice ;D:-XQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
I would like to see Danny Garcia to be amongst the next superstars but I am losing hope with his recent decisions. Not long ago I thought it was a given but things can change very quick.
What it shows was how good Tucker was and how quickly Tyson declined as King got in his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliThat second part is interesting? Who? Ok Holmes schools an over confident and ill advised Mercer...much like a Damiani had prior save for a single punch. Holmes pulled out every inch of shook & jive craft, guile and sharp jab to go 12 with Holyfield and then vomit all over his cornermen and self..literally, but by no means was that close. Holmes was also totally outjabbed and gifted a win vs Quinn Navarre, likewise twice out on his feet to Jesse Fergusson. Tucker made Douglas quit on his stool..certainly didn't translate into Tucker topping Tyson next or proving Douglas incapable of out boxing and beating Tyson. I don't think Lewis or Holyfield having tough fights and negative results speaks to Tysons mythical superiority "in his prime" but rather to each fighters level of competition and competiveness. Oh and often lost..Holyfield kicked Tysons ass..twice ;D:-XQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
Or maybe it shows that Tucker was just scared of the myth of Tyson and never gave himself a realistic chance to win. Here's another reality check for you: you are omitting an important aspect to Holmes performance vs Tyson, a Mercer and Evander. Holmes hadn't fought in two years when he walked into the ring cold vs Tyson. He learned his lesson (try reading articles on Holmes comeback sometime, and worked his way to Mercer, Evander, Mcall...etc. Holmes always said that he felt with some build up fights the Tyson debacle would've gone differently. Also, Holmes never pushed Evander like you make it sound. Evander suffered a honorific cut after being hit with an elbow, yet as stated above won a wide decision and had a Holmes puking at the final bell.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossWhat it shows was how good Tucker was and how quickly Tyson declined as King got in his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliThat second part is interesting? Who? Ok Holmes schools an over confident and ill advised Mercer...much like a Damiani had prior save for a single punch. Holmes pulled out every inch of shook & jive craft, guile and sharp jab to go 12 with Holyfield and then vomit all over his cornermen and self..literally, but by no means was that close. Holmes was also totally outjabbed and gifted a win vs Quinn Navarre, likewise twice out on his feet to Jesse Fergusson. Tucker made Douglas quit on his stool..certainly didn't translate into Tucker topping Tyson next or proving Douglas incapable of out boxing and beating Tyson. I don't think Lewis or Holyfield having tough fights and negative results speaks to Tysons mythical superiority "in his prime" but rather to each fighters level of competition and competiveness. Oh and often lost..Holyfield kicked Tysons ass..twice ;D:-XQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
If Mike scared Tucker it was because he was a fearsome prospect back then. To last the distance you had to spoil or try to actually win, fight and risk getting knocked out by those quick combinations.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodOr maybe it shows that Tucker was just scared of the myth of Tyson and never gave himself a realistic chance to win. Here's another reality check for you: you are omitting an important aspect to Holmes performance vs Tyson, a Mercer and Evander. Holmes hadn't fought in two years when he walked into the ring cold vs Tyson. He learned his lesson (try reading articles on Holmes comeback sometime, and worked his way to Mercer, Evander, Mcall...etc. Holmes always said that he felt with some build up fights the Tyson debacle would've gone differently. Also, Holmes never pushed Evander like you make it sound. Evander suffered a honorific cut after being hit with an elbow, yet as stated above won a wide decision and had a Holmes puking at the final bell.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossWhat it shows was how good Tucker was and how quickly Tyson declined as King got in his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliThat second part is interesting? Who? Ok Holmes schools an over confident and ill advised Mercer...much like a Damiani had prior save for a single punch. Holmes pulled out every inch of shook & jive craft, guile and sharp jab to go 12 with Holyfield and then vomit all over his cornermen and self..literally, but by no means was that close. Holmes was also totally outjabbed and gifted a win vs Quinn Navarre, likewise twice out on his feet to Jesse Fergusson. Tucker made Douglas quit on his stool..certainly didn't translate into Tucker topping Tyson next or proving Douglas incapable of out boxing and beating Tyson. I don't think Lewis or Holyfield having tough fights and negative results speaks to Tysons mythical superiority "in his prime" but rather to each fighters level of competition and competiveness. Oh and often lost..Holyfield kicked Tysons ass..twice ;D:-XQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
How long was Mayweather out when he fought Marquez? Leonard when he fought Hagler?
Holmes never pushed Holyfield? He pushed him to a decision did he not? He couldn't get out of the 4th round with Tyson. He was 4 years older when he fought Holyfield;D
Holmes didn't push him to a decision, he used every bit of heart, guile and trick at his disposal to SURVIVE to the decision. There is a difference. Regardless, the bottom line is that when Tyson was favored to beat Evander he was broken mentally and knocked out. Any excuse or abstract thought process you want to use is meaningless. Also, the majority of the boxing public agrees that Tyson feasted in inferior competition, and that Holmes, Lewis, Evander were all superior fighters during their prime years. U r definitively a HUGE Tyson fan, which is a good things as I think Mike is a good guy for the most part. We will just agree to disagree I guess...
No. What you are doing is refusing to accept that some of the same fighters Mike beat with ease in his actual prime gave the fighters you want to think that are better than Mike a harder fight years later. Thats ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Mike fought. Holyfield 10 years after winning the title and 4 years enforced absence. He was not the same fighter that even beat Alex Stewart in a round. The same Alex Stewart that was robbed against Foreman and took Holyfield, Moorer and Maskaev rounds.
What majority of boxing public?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Alright, I see what u r saying now. Not their head to head match up, that was meaningless. We need to compare how each did vs similar opposition and u feel that Tyson won more impressively against Holmes and Stewart. You mentioned Stewart specifically as proof, so we can assume that u feel that Tyson was prime. Well, Evander destroyed the prime Douglas who dominated the undefeated and prime Tyson. Lewis and Evander both performed better vs each other than Tyson ever did. He didn't last the distance with either. Hopefully putting it like that helps u.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossNo. What you are doing is refusing to accept that some of the same fighters Mike beat with ease in his actual prime gave the fighters you want to think that are better than Mike a harder fight years later. Thats ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Mike fought. Holyfield 10 years after winning the title and 4 years enforced absence. He was not the same fighter that even beat Alex Stewart in a round. The same Alex Stewart that was robbed against Foreman and took Holyfield, Moorer and Maskaev rounds.
Um, the majority of knowledgeable individuals who follow the sport. I have seen numerous historical rankings of fighters, and I can't remember any that have Tyson ahead of Evander. Have u seen many that rank Mike higher?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterWhat majority of boxing public?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Prime Douglas who came in grossly overweight and sat on his fat ass and counted the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodAlright, I see what u r saying now. Not their head to head match up, that was meaningless. We need to compare how each did vs similar opposition and u feel that Tyson won more impressively against Holmes and Stewart. You mentioned Stewart specifically as proof, so we can assume that u feel that Tyson was prime. Well, Evander destroyed the prime Douglas who dominated the undefeated and prime Tyson. Lewis and Evander both performed better vs each other than Tyson ever did. He didn't last the distance with either. Hopefully putting it like that helps u.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossNo. What you are doing is refusing to accept that some of the same fighters Mike beat with ease in his actual prime gave the fighters you want to think that are better than Mike a harder fight years later. Thats ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Mike fought. Holyfield 10 years after winning the title and 4 years enforced absence. He was not the same fighter that even beat Alex Stewart in a round. The same Alex Stewart that was robbed against Foreman and took Holyfield, Moorer and Maskaev rounds.
I get it, when Evander scores the win then we put in the extra information for context. When Tyson scores the win, we just look at the win and take it at face value. Good way to analyze fighters and their rankings. Seems logical to me.