Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Hold up. Why did you mention their common opponents if they were irrelevant? You asked a question. If it's important to highlight that Floyd beat superior versions of these men then it's understandable that Manny beating them in a far more devastating fashion could sway people to believe he's the better fighter, right?

I then pointed out that Pac was in all-time great memorable battles with Marquez, Barrera and Morales before he ever became a possible rival to Floyd. Therefore looking at Pac's opposition outside of the common opponents, there's an argument that he's faced stronger competition, regardless of the fact he's been whopped.

Show me where Leonard is ranked higher than Duran by any reputable boxing publication/historian?

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When determining the quality of opposition, it's important to look at the context. Larry Holmes beat the same guy in 1980 that Joe Frazier beat in 1971: they'd both answer to the name Muhammad Ali and a DNA test would conclude that they were the same person. But as boxing fans, we look at the context and understand that Frazier's win was of higher quality because Muhammad Ali was a better fighter in 1971 than he was in 1980. It's not just the name that counts.

So when I say something like "Manny fought Hatton after Floyd beat him", that's providing context to judge the quality of the wins. When Floyd beat Hatton, he was undefeated, ranked higher and held to a much higher esteem by boxing fans. When Pac beat him, he had been knocked out, had split with his long time trainer, and by all accounts his drug and alcohol addictions were getting worse. Still a fantastic win, but Mayweather's meant more. Mayweather took his 0. So in bringing that up, I was bringing up something relevant to determining the quality of opponent.

The question of who did better against a common opponent has no relevance to the quality of opposition faced. If Wlad fights Stiverne, David Haye and Andy Ruiz Jr next year and KO's them all, and I fight Stiverne, David Haye and Andy Ruiz Jr next year and get destroyed in 30 seconds by all of them, me and Wlad have fought the same quality level of opposition. I hope that clarifies.

And really I could give a fuck less how many people want to rate Duran - a guy who lost to all his best peers, got KTFO, quit because of a tummy ache, ect - over Leonard. People not knowing boxing isn't my problem.

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This along with your assertion that

"If both retired tomorrow, we've seen Pac beaten and/or knocked out in every stage of his career, whereas Floyd has never lost. Floyd was the bigger star, the bigger draw, made a lot more money and has never had a true equal in the ring."


throws doubt on your ability to remain objective when discussing Floyd. You obviously don't rate Duran despite overwhelming evidence that the guy was a true boxing phenomenon and have already made up your mind that Floyd is peerless, an opinion that no doubt would not even change were Manny, or somebody else, to get in the ring with him and knock him out. It seems you have made you mind up so why ask the question?

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

The perception seems to be that, when you're talking about the competition each guy has faced, Manny was a real man who fought nothing but the best and Floyd was the guy who meticulously cherry picked easily opponents. A lot of people still believe Pac was the better fighter because he fought much better opposition.

Can someone explain that to me?

DLH - a guy Floyd beat a year prior. Forced to drain himself down to a weigh class he hadn't fought at in 7 or 8 years prior to that fight.

Ricky Hatton - Great win but another Floyd leftover who's camp seemed to be in turmoil and had broke off with his long time trainer.

Cotto - great win, but came at a time when Cotto's stock had fallen greatly after being physically destroyed by Marg and was coming off a controversial split decision win over Clottey where he looked terrible.

Clottely - Tough fighter but actually coming off of the loss to Cotto.

Marg - newly off of his suspension after being absolutely destroyed by Mosley. Shane Mosley leftover

Shane Mosley - Floyd leftover coming off a dominating loss to Floyd and a draw where he looked like absolute shit against Sergio Mora of all people.

JMM - Great fighter, but obviously it has to be noted that JMM is a guy who gave Pac absolute fits and knocked him unconscious, whereas Floyd pitched a virtual shutout against him and made JMM look like an amateur (the only person to have done that)

Tim Bradley - nothing to complain about here. Manny fought the undefeated, crafty Bradley twice and won twice (despite what the judges said the first time). Great wins.

Brandon Rios - Blown up 135lber coming off a loss to Alvarado. Pointless fight.

Chris Algeri - Virtual unknown until a SD win over Provodnikov. Tall with long reach, but seemingly no power. I think most boxing fans are in agreement that this is a pretty uninteresting fight.



Am I being unfair to Manny? I'm not saying that these fights meant nothing because for the most part they were fought against very tough fighters. But once you get past the fact that Manny was fighting larger guys (something Floyd has done every time out), how come we don't scrutinize Manny's competition like we do Floyd's?

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Superb

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I think both guys competition is very comparable.There are a huge raft of shared opponents but Manny's wins have often seemed more emphatic. Horses for courses, very different styles, personalities and fighters are Floyd and Manny. I don't think one is emphatically better than the other in reality, but Manny is easier for the non boxing anorak to appreciate.

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Superb again and it is far easier for any casual fan to accept manny rather than floyd

The majority of us would probably all agree that floyd has the edge in the harder opponents and has consistently beat everyone of his 47 opponents including castillo with a torn rotator.

Can we please discuss manny pac 5 losses..?

Do you think we could touch on that a teeny weeny bit?

Manny is a great guy (no doubt) but lets exclude the wars he had with marquez with the last one leaving him completely sparked out by an out of prime 40 year old who jumped up in weight?!!

Lets stay away from the easy accusation of nut hugging and deflecting the arguement and deal with mannys great but flawed record.

Floyd and manny are worlds apart in skill and £worth£ but lets keep ignoring it and make it seem like manny is ying to floyds yang as it keeps everyone guessing..

Next time this thread should be between manny and bradley as they both beat each other but after bradleys injury in the second fight it was plain to see he was a different fighter (again).

Close your eyes.

Put your house on the fight.

Be honest with yourself

Who would you really bet on to win..exactly.

Floyd would win so take the fight and not pussy out and accuse him of drug taking.

Manny has losses because he dared to be great. Floyd doesn't because he cares for the 0 more than anything. Floyd thinks that retiring undefeated will make him " TBE " where Manny has lost attempting to prove it.

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Originally Posted by imp

The majority of us would probably all agree that floyd has the edge in the harder opponents and has consistently beat everyone of his 47 opponents including castillo with a torn rotator.

Can we please discuss manny pac 5 losses..?

Do you think we could touch on that a teeny weeny bit?

Manny is a great guy (no doubt) but lets exclude the wars he had with marquez with the last one leaving him completely sparked out by an out of prime 40 year old who jumped up in weight?!!

Lets stay away from the easy accusation of nut hugging and deflecting the arguement and deal with mannys great but flawed record.

Floyd and manny are worlds apart in skill and £worth£ but lets keep ignoring it and make it seem like manny is ying to floyds yang as it keeps everyone guessing..

Next time this thread should be between manny and bradley as they both beat each other but after bradleys injury in the second fight it was plain to see he was a different fighter (again).

Close your eyes.

Put your house on the fight.

Be honest with yourself

Who would you really bet on to win..exactly.

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Seems like the majority on the board feel Pac fought tougher comp. I only see yourself and Beanflicker saying opposite and really not making much sense or a convincing argument. You can see the bias come through in your guys posts. Honestly, you don't make very many rational, unbiased observations, you just get frustrated and end up off topic on who would win a head to head fight, who beat what version of whom...etc. Good down the list. Look at 1) fighters ranked P4P at the time of the fight, 2) Times either guy was the considerable underdog and won 3) How many prime HOF fighters each guy fought. That should be your criteria and it isn't even close. I will help out and post so you guys don't have to do the work and look it up.

I think the bigger issue for many Mayweather fans that Pac fans don't understand and therefore don't want to address is the fact that Pacquiao refused drug testing for so long and for such ridiculous reasons that his credibility is shot.

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I think both guys competition is very comparable.There are a huge raft of shared opponents but Manny's wins have often seemed more emphatic. Horses for courses, very different styles, personalities and fighters are Floyd and Manny. I don't think one is emphatically better than the other in reality, but Manny is easier for the non boxing anorak to appreciate.

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Superb again and it is far easier for any casual fan to accept manny rather than floyd

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The ironic reality is though, that casual fans are far more likely to know than anoraks. They are not so easily distracted by meaningless details like how much money each has made or how you think that Floyd is SO much more skillful."Worlds apart" was the phrase you used, but they are just not. Manny makes it look simple but the guy is not the clueless brawler you would like to think. It's nice to think we are experts but if we really were we would all bet our house on every fight and we don't.

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

Manny has losses because he dared to be great. Floyd doesn't because he cares for the 0 more than anything. Floyd thinks that retiring undefeated will make him " TBE " where Manny has lost attempting to prove it.

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Manny haz losez becuz he has a bad defense. u dnt need power to win or speed. but u need a good defense to NOT lose.:cool:

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

I think the bigger issue for many Mayweather fans that Pac fans don't understand and therefore don't want to address is the fact that Pacquiao refused drug testing for so long and for such ridiculous reasons that his credibility is shot.

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Why do you have to frame it like a p***ng contest? Mayweather fans on one side and Manny's on the other. The reality is the majority of people here appreciate both and don't reduce themselves into such dichotomies. Mayweather does not merely represent the defensive, ring smart genius boxer and Manny only the offensive, gung ho brawler, fighter. They have elements of each others arsenal in each of their repertoire. It's why they are successful and why they are followed by Millions.

I think the bigger issue for many Mayweather fans that Pac fans don't understand and therefore don't want to address is the fact that Pacquiao refused drug testing for so long and for such ridiculous reasons that his credibility is shot.

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

I think the bigger issue for many Mayweather fans that Pac fans don't understand and therefore don't want to address is the fact that Pacquiao refused drug testing for so long and for such ridiculous reasons that his credibility is shot.

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Why do you have to frame it like a p***ng contest? Mayweather fans on one side and Manny's on the other. The reality is the majority of people here appreciate both and don't reduce themselves into such dichotomies. Mayweather does not merely represent the defensive, ring smart genius boxer and Manny only the offensive, gung ho brawler, fighter. They have elements of each others arsenal in each of their repertoire. It's why they are successful and why they are followed by Millions.

Is there an echo in here ?;D

Steroids

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Originally Posted by Manuel "Chubby" Medina

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

Manny has losses because he dared to be great. Floyd doesn't because he cares for the 0 more than anything. Floyd thinks that retiring undefeated will make him " TBE " where Manny has lost attempting to prove it.

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Manny has losses because he has a bad defense. You don't need power to win or speed. But you need a good defense to NOT lose.:cool:

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There you go fixed it for you ;). Anyways your post is irrelevant how many times do we hear of guys losing a fight because they didn't throw enough ? Defense is not the key to victory. Look at Clottey for Abraham who block for most their fights and lose when they step up. A great offense keeps your opponents hands at home and that's how you win. That's why they say Be first not block all hes punches before you throw.

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

Steroids

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Rocco, ur mom called. She wants u to put up ur gerbil and bring her laptop upstairs. She said make sure u clean the lotion off the buttons this time....

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

Manny has losses because he dared to be great. Floyd doesn't because he cares for the 0 more than anything. Floyd thinks that retiring undefeated will make him " TBE " where Manny has lost attempting to prove it.

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

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Originally Posted by Manuel "Chubby" Medina

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

Manny has losses because he dared to be great. Floyd doesn't because he cares for the 0 more than anything. Floyd thinks that retiring undefeated will make him " TBE " where Manny has lost attempting to prove it.

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Manny has losses because he has a bad defense. You don't need power to win or speed. But you need a good defense to NOT lose.:cool:

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There you go fixed it for you ;). Anyways your post is irrelevant how many times do we hear of guys losing a fight because they didn't throw enough ? Defense is not the key to victory. Look at Clottey for Abraham who block for most their fights and lose when they step up. A great offense keeps your opponents hands at home and that's how you win. That's why they say Be first not block all hes punches before you throw.

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A fighter wit a bad defense iz in more risk of losin den a fighter with good defense

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

I think the bigger issue for many Mayweather fans that Pac fans don't understand and therefore don't want to address is the fact that Pacquiao refused drug testing for so long and for such ridiculous reasons that his credibility is shot.

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Pac agreed to the current standardized testing done on boxers before and after fights. Once that agreement had already been accepted then Floyd wants to start changing things. It was a non issue other than Floyd wanting to show he was the boss. Current testing finds cheats I think that would be good enough. Manny would have gone to Floyd's house where where Floyd would have had his hand injections. It's like that let that law stand for Floyd himself. Manny didn't botch about that. I think Floyd was looking to push buttons and he succeeded. Pac

Despite what I commented upon here I love Floyd in the ring. He is a marvelous spectacle of boxing. I am an official Pactard. We can tear apart the history of these guys respective past fights. I definitely think Manny is a more exciting fighter, he doesn't ride a bike as well as Floyd. I think the postponement of this fight will work in Mannys favor. I'm telling you, the fight will happen. It will be a beautiful thing and I will be happy for a month seeing Manny win.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

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Originally Posted by imp

The majority of us would probably all agree that floyd has the edge in the harder opponents and has consistently beat everyone of his 47 opponents including castillo with a torn rotator.

Can we please discuss manny pac 5 losses..?

Do you think we could touch on that a teeny weeny bit?

Manny is a great guy (no doubt) but lets exclude the wars he had with marquez with the last one leaving him completely sparked out by an out of prime 40 year old who jumped up in weight?!!

Lets stay away from the easy accusation of nut hugging and deflecting the arguement and deal with mannys great but flawed record.

Floyd and manny are worlds apart in skill and £worth£ but lets keep ignoring it and make it seem like manny is ying to floyds yang as it keeps everyone guessing..

Next time this thread should be between manny and bradley as they both beat each other but after bradleys injury in the second fight it was plain to see he was a different fighter (again).

Close your eyes.

Put your house on the fight.

Be honest with yourself

Who would you really bet on to win..exactly.

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Seems like the majority on the board feel Pac fought tougher comp. I only see yourself and Beanflicker saying opposite and really not making much sense or a convincing argument. You can see the bias come through in your guys posts. Honestly, you don't make very many rational, unbiased observations, you just get frustrated and end up off topic on who would win a head to head fight, who beat what version of whom...etc. Good down the list. Look at 1) fighters ranked P4P at the time of the fight, 2) Times either guy was the considerable underdog and won 3) How many prime HOF fighters each guy fought. That should be your criteria and it isn't even close. I will help out and post so you guys don't have to do the work and look it up.

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His logo is TMT. I didn't expect him to be rational when it came to Floyd.

Let's be honest though. Floyd hasn't lost. That's something Manny can't claim. Like Manny, he's a multiple weight champion. Are some of his wins manufactured? Yes. Are some of Manny's? Yes. Even with the weight advantage, he did something Manny has never been able to do and that's skunk Marquez. Has his opposition in the last few years been less than desired? Absolutely. Still though, he's done for the most part what he should do with that opposition. I would say his best wins came more than a few years ago. I would also say he's comparable with Manny on a historical scale. In other words, there isn't a ton separating them.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

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Originally Posted by imp

The majority of us would probably all agree that floyd has the edge in the harder opponents and has consistently beat everyone of his 47 opponents including castillo with a torn rotator.

Can we please discuss manny pac 5 losses..?

Do you think we could touch on that a teeny weeny bit?

Manny is a great guy (no doubt) but lets exclude the wars he had with marquez with the last one leaving him completely sparked out by an out of prime 40 year old who jumped up in weight?!!

Lets stay away from the easy accusation of nut hugging and deflecting the arguement and deal with mannys great but flawed record.

Floyd and manny are worlds apart in skill and £worth£ but lets keep ignoring it and make it seem like manny is ying to floyds yang as it keeps everyone guessing..

Next time this thread should be between manny and bradley as they both beat each other but after bradleys injury in the second fight it was plain to see he was a different fighter (again).

Close your eyes.

Put your house on the fight.

Be honest with yourself

Who would you really bet on to win..exactly.

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Seems like the majority on the board feel Pac fought tougher comp. I only see yourself and Beanflicker saying opposite and really not making much sense or a convincing argument. You can see the bias come through in your guys posts. Honestly, you don't make very many rational, unbiased observations, you just get frustrated and end up off topic on who would win a head to head fight, who beat what version of whom...etc. Good down the list. Look at 1) fighters ranked P4P at the time of the fight, 2) Times either guy was the considerable underdog and won 3) How many prime HOF fighters each guy fought. That should be your criteria and it isn't even close. I will help out and post so you guys don't have to do the work and look it up.

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His logo is TMT. I didn't expect him to be rational when it came to Floyd.

Let's be honest though. Floyd hasn't lost. That's something Manny can't claim. Like Manny, he's a multiple weight champion. Are some of his wins manufactured? Yes. Are some of Manny's? Yes. Even with the weight advantage, he did something Manny has never been able to do and that's skunk Marquez. Has his opposition in the last few years been less than desired? Absolutely. Still though, he's done for the most part what he should do with that opposition. I would say his best wins came more than a few years ago. I would also say he's comparable with Manny on a historical scale. In other words, there isn't a ton separating them.

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For the most part I agree with your statement. Both are ATG fighters and neither is afraid of anyone. It's sad that boxing fans feel the need to tear down either guy to try and defend the other. This thread was started, made contentious and kept going by two or three Floyd huggers, but you can't hold that against Floyd. I still feel Manny beat better comp, but it isn't by much and Floyd is definitely a great fighter.

What about steroids?

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

What about steroids?

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It's a good question for both guys and I think both guys will be haunted by it.

They both left a lot to be desired in that department. First, Manny won't take the test for the fight. Then, Floyd pays Manny more than $3million to settle the lawsuit against Floyd for defamation because he won't give up the results of his previous tests and has a long-standing relationship with one of the biggest testosterone guys in the South and multiple guys in his gym get busted for testosterone.

Frankly, it's sort of like baseball players in the 90's with boxing now in a way. Will we ever know who took what? I doubt it.

I think the Manny that beat Margarito at 154lb would have beaten the Oscar that fought Floyd but not the version that beat Vargas.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

The perception seems to be that, when you're talking about the competition each guy has faced, Manny was a real man who fought nothing but the best and Floyd was the guy who meticulously cherry picked easily opponents. A lot of people still believe Pac was the better fighter because he fought much better opposition.

Can someone explain that to me?

DLH - a guy Floyd beat a year prior. Forced to drain himself down to a weigh class he hadn't fought at in 7 or 8 years prior to that fight.

Ricky Hatton - Great win but another Floyd leftover who's camp seemed to be in turmoil and had broke off with his long time trainer.

Cotto - great win, but came at a time when Cotto's stock had fallen greatly after being physically destroyed by Marg and was coming off a controversial split decision win over Clottey where he looked terrible.

Clottely - Tough fighter but actually coming off of the loss to Cotto.

Marg - newly off of his suspension after being absolutely destroyed by Mosley. Shane Mosley leftover

Shane Mosley - Floyd leftover coming off a dominating loss to Floyd and a draw where he looked like absolute shit against Sergio Mora of all people.

JMM - Great fighter, but obviously it has to be noted that JMM is a guy who gave Pac absolute fits and knocked him unconscious, whereas Floyd pitched a virtual shutout against him and made JMM look like an amateur (the only person to have done that)

Tim Bradley - nothing to complain about here. Manny fought the undefeated, crafty Bradley twice and won twice (despite what the judges said the first time). Great wins.

Brandon Rios - Blown up 135lber coming off a loss to Alvarado. Pointless fight.

Chris Algeri - Virtual unknown until a SD win over Provodnikov. Tall with long reach, but seemingly no power. I think most boxing fans are in agreement that this is a pretty uninteresting fight.



Am I being unfair to Manny? I'm not saying that these fights meant nothing because for the most part they were fought against very tough fighters. But once you get past the fact that Manny was fighting larger guys (something Floyd has done every time out), how come we don't scrutinize Manny's competition like we do Floyd's?

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I dont know who says Manny fights better. I believe they are on par with eachother with Pac fighting better fighters earlier in his career and Floyd fighting better. The reason Floyd gets stick about it because he claims to be the best ever. If he believes that he should fight the best. Noone thinks Pac is close to the best ever

No one knows what was discussed in that room with al haymon and arum etc.

Bottom line is the fight could not be made and pac has signed another contract with arum as a final no to the mayweather fight.

Nothing to be rational about as I have been many times in the past but there is light between these fighters and floyd would never have lost 5 times to the opponents that manny lost too.

Manny is a great fighter and I have mentioned that many times but no one is still dealing with the fact that manny has major flaws which have been exposed 5 times over already.

Calzaghe and froch are both great fighters and I love carl froch but his losses exposed him and he wouldnt beat JC.

Same with mayweather and pac.

The constant ducking arguement doesnt work anymore and we neec to understand that floyd is older than manny but is still fighting the deadlier opposition with not a loss after all these years.

Someone (rantcatrat) will probably start comparing all the old fighters now with undefeated records and comparing them with beaten fighters that are better blah blah blah.

Being undefeated is not everything BUT it must be taken into consideration when dealing with mannys flawed record and floyds perfect one.

Should we start with morales or will someone say it was ages ago and a different weight blah blah blah..always a bloody excuse!

I thought prov was the next big pac or GGG but he took a loss to bradley and everyone eased of a bit.

Mayweather and ward are still the guys to beat in this game so dont hate on me just be happy to see this guys performing in our era.

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Originally Posted by Master

I think the Manny that beat Margarito at 154lb would have beaten the Oscar that fought Floyd but not the version that beat Vargas.

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No way!

The big oscar floyd fought would have beat manny and margacheato on the same night!

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Master

I think the Manny that beat Margarito at 154lb would have beaten the Oscar that fought Floyd but not the version that beat Vargas.

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No way!

The big oscar floyd fought would have beat manny and margacheato on the same night!

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That Oscar tired badly after 6 rounds which he was winning. Manny would have taken over.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Master

I think the Manny that beat Margarito at 154lb would have beaten the Oscar that fought Floyd but not the version that beat Vargas.

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No way!

The big oscar floyd fought would have beat manny and margacheato on the same night!

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That Oscar tired badly after 6 rounds which he was winning. Manny would have taken over.

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There will always be conflict and different opinions.

But what we do know is that oscar was younger and at his weight holding all the cards when floyd beat him.

If we look at the same opponents that floyd and manny have fought...floyd has beaten everyone of them...manny hasnt!

Lets not curve history. Manny has marquez problems. Floyd does not!

Back of the net.

Sadly this cant be done on a micro-level. Like in the thread title under a different name, I have never seen this kind of equality on epic ledgers such as this and legacy in the same weight area in quite some time. I have also never seen two others in a similar situation not find a way to fight each other.

Manny fought ATG'S past their prime and arguably lost to Marquez 3 other times. Had weight conditions with others and Oscar should not even be considered. The guy had not made welter in almost 10 years. Rehydrated 2 pounds coming in at 145/147 (at fight time) and looked like he had scurvy and both feet nailed to the floor. Means about as much as Holmes/Ali. Still a remarkable set f prints left in the sport.

Floyd beat many more prime guys and above average fighters in their prime. Still, he seemed content and not going beyond the call of duty like Manny did. But he did dominate. Trouble with Floyd is he fed on the same style of fighter much of the time and always seemed more about money then legacy and got breaks along the way having Cortez in many fights. Extra long time off and probably sat out 5 years of his prime.

Both guys are first ballot and both will have a few asterisks attached at the end of the day and the one in bold will be the fact that they share the blame for never fighting. No way should this fight have escaped history.

Comparing Manny and Floyd is like comparing Floyd to fighters from different eras, they just aint gonna fight and we dont really know who would win. Flod is big fav but Ive always maintained speed and movement could cause Floyd to struggle. Thats why I give Khan a great chance against him, a better chance than I would give him of beating Pac.

As for Floyds opposition being much superior to Pacs well if we look at their last 7.

Floyd has Mosly who was well past it, Ortiz who is noy good, Cotto who got obliterated by Pac (easier than Floyd did) Guerrero who again is average, Alavarez (his best opponent) who I again dont rate at that level as I feel he should have lost to Lara and anyone strugling with Trout isnt going to be a match for Floyd and then Maidana twice who in my opinoin was not worthy of a fight with Floyd once let alone twice.

Pac has Margarito nothing special but is as good as Maidana, Mosely shot, Marquez as good as anyone on the floyds list, Bradley twice again as good as anyone on Floyds list and Rios who is just shit.

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Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe

Comparing Manny and Floyd is like comparing Floyd to fighters from different eras, they just aint gonna fight and we dont really know who would win. Flod is big fav but Ive always maintained speed and movement could cause Floyd to struggle. Thats why I give Khan a great chance against him, a better chance than I would give him of beating Pac.

As for Floyds opposition being much superior to Pacs well if we look at their last 7.

Floyd has Mosly who was well past it, Ortiz who is noy good, Cotto who got obliterated by Pac (easier than Floyd did) Guerrero who again is average, Alavarez (his best opponent) who I again dont rate at that level as I feel he should have lost to Lara and anyone strugling with Trout isnt going to be a match for Floyd and then Maidana twice who in my opinoin was not worthy of a fight with Floyd once let alone twice.

Pac has Margarito nothing special but is as good as Maidana, Mosely shot, Marquez as good as anyone on the floyds list, Bradley twice again as good as anyone on Floyds list and Rios who is just shit.

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Mosely just beat the monster margacheato and floyd schooled him.
Manny beat a shot paycheck moseley.

Floyd ko a prime undefeated hatton,
Pac ko a shot defeated hatton.

Ortiz is better than rios
Rios is shit (i agree)

Pac beat a catchweight cotto (good win)
Floyd beat a cotto at his weight.

Maidana would beat margacheato and beats all of pacs opponents bar cotto (possibly)

Canelo would beat all of pacs opponents!
Pac wouldnt even entertain a canelo fight.

This back and forth could go on for ages but no matter how you look at it whether its an inch or a mile..winning is winning...and floyd shines in the above.

Floyd would easily beat marquez and bradley and everyone knows that!!

We can go back and fourth all we want but as fans we should be grateful we were alive in this era to see these guys fighting. In the end I think Manny is a far superior fighter, I know each fighter has a style until themselves but Floyd wouldn't go balls to the wall as Manny always does. Floyd would not fighter a fighter who consistently gives him trouble as JMM did Manny. If so Floyd would have taken on Cotto three months after the first fight. Manny New when he stepped in the ring against JMM it wasn't a gimme but so many if Floyd's fights were gimme. I think his rematch with his last opponent was more to fulfill his contract than to prove anything else. If Floyd gets the W with some controversy when has he ever given a shot about proving things to his fans. Floyd has no fans, only people who give him money. I think Manny has an entire different view on such things. One of our members here @pacfan often talks about how like is in the Philippines and how Manny was selling food on the streets to help his family survive. Someone else said comparing these two fighters is comparing apples and oranges.Tough times for Manny were avoiding starvation, tough times for Floyd were doing time for domestic abuse..

I have much more respect for Manny not only in boxing but in humanity. He is tough in ways that Floyd couldn't experience any longer.

To reiterate, I am glad I'm a boxing fan and have been able to pay overpriced numbers to see Floyd fight, absolutely love to see him do his thing but even more so when it comes to Manny. I always feel I'm seeing something beyond special with Manny. Sure he has some loses, but his record overall is mind blowing especially when you look where he came from. I have been left breathless after seeing Manny land combos like nothing I have seen before. He is beyond great and he doesn't need to tell us every five minutes. Manny v Pac will happen in 2015. I hear Mannys team is looking to steal Biber away from team money. If this does happen Manny v Pac may not happen as Beiber is the only thing keeping Floyd from beginning a full "blown" pedophile. Justin looks long enough where he fulfills Floyd's need for young boys to touch and penetrate but losing him from team money will force Floyd to capture what he really wants, eleven year old boys. Manny is going to rescue Beiber and get him the help he needs. Bahai

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Originally Posted by walrus

We can go back and fourth all we want but as fans we should be grateful we were alive in this era to see these guys fighting. In the end I think Manny is a far superior fighter, I know each fighter has a style until themselves but Floyd wouldn't go balls to the wall as Manny always does. Floyd would not fighter a fighter who consistently gives him trouble as JMM did Manny. If so Floyd would have taken on Cotto three months after the first fight. Manny New when he stepped in the ring against JMM it wasn't a gimme but so many if Floyd's fights were gimme. I think his rematch with his last opponent was more to fulfill his contract than to prove anything else. If Floyd gets the W with some controversy when has he ever given a shot about proving things to his fans. Floyd has no fans, only people who give him money. I think Manny has an entire different view on such things. One of our members here @pacfan often talks about how like is in the Philippines and how Manny was selling food on the streets to help his family survive. Someone else said comparing these two fighters is comparing apples and oranges.Tough times for Manny were avoiding starvation, tough times for Floyd were doing time for domestic abuse..

I have much more respect for Manny not only in boxing but in humanity. He is tough in ways that Floyd couldn't experience any longer.

To reiterate, I am glad I'm a boxing fan and have been able to pay overpriced numbers to see Floyd fight, absolutely love to see him do his thing but even more so when it comes to Manny. I always feel I'm seeing something beyond special with Manny. Sure he has some loses, but his record overall is mind blowing especially when you look where he came from. I have been left breathless after seeing Manny land combos like nothing I have seen before. He is beyond great and he doesn't need to tell us every five minutes. Manny v Pac will happen in 2015. I hear Mannys team is looking to steal Biber away from team money. If this does happen Manny v Pac may not happen as Beiber is the only thing keeping Floyd from beginning a full "blown" pedophile. Justin looks long enough where he fulfills Floyd's need for young boys to touch and penetrate but losing him from team money will force Floyd to capture what he really wants, eleven year old boys. Manny is going to rescue Beiber and get him the help he needs. Bahai

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This post ruined all the good ones you might have made.

When someone has to say this fighter was selling food on the streets and the other was not is really clutching those straws.

Smh

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Originally Posted by walrus

Floyd would not fighter a fighter who consistently gives him trouble as JMM did Manny.

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Castillo gave him hell and arguably beat him... rematched.

Maidana gave him hell and came very close... rematched.

When you're talk about who was the most exciting fighter, Manny wins by a landslide. It's not even close.

When you're talking about who the superior fighter was and who had the superior career, it was Floyd Mayweather. You'd have to be crazy to argue with either of those facts.

I see a lot of times people factor in excitement into how great a fighter was, and that's something I never understood.

People seem to have trouble grasping the concept that excitement can often be the result of flaws in a fighter, and being boring is often the result of a fighter being so great that his fights aren't competitive.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by walrus

Floyd would not fighter a fighter who consistently gives him trouble as JMM did Manny.

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Castillo gave him hell and arguably beat him... rematched.

Maidana gave him hell and came very close... rematched.

When you're talk about who was the most exciting fighter, Manny wins by a landslide. It's not even close.

When you're talking about who the superior fighter was and who had the superior career, it was Floyd Mayweather. You'd have to be crazy to argue with either of those facts.

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I disagree, so I must be crazy. I think you are correct in stating that Floyd is the better fighter, you won't get any argument out of me on that one. I disagree that Floyd had the superior career. I value quality of opposition and big wins more than avoiding losses and big events.

Manny electrified the sport. Floyd has risen the awareness of the sport to the general public, but more for novelty act reasons. The fans Manny attracted watch for his excitement value, both in how he fights and by taking on TOUGH competition. People watch Floyd, more people in certain instances than Manny, but more for the hope that he gets beat.

I would say right now that their careers are pretty even, but I don't think it is as crazy as you try to make it seem to favor Manny's career. The fact that you try so hard to say that it shouldn't be a topic just makes you seem like a completely biased fanboy. You lose credibility with the valid points you make...

Roy jones had both.

He was exciting and occasionally boring when he carried opponents.

This thread is about opponents so lets put floyd and mannys last 3 opponents in a boxing competition...who wins and why?

Is anyone happy to discuss in detail mannys losses or will we continue to duck that question like floyd is ducking manny.

"Imp, stop talking about losses!
Ali was a beaten fighter and he is the greatest!"

Manny is no ali.

Duran..yes..minus the quit in his heart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

I see a lot of times people factor in excitement into how great a fighter was, and that's something I never understood.

People seem to have trouble grasping the concept that excitement can often be the result of flaws in a fighter, and being boring is often the result of a fighter being so great that his fights aren't competitive.

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I don't know, some might argue that while boxing is the sweet science, it is still a fight and not a defensive contest. I would argue that true skill is being able to maintain a defense while attacking and dominating for the stoppage. I don't think Rigo is more skilled than Hagler was, or more dominant prime vs prime, but he is WAY more boring. I think the more skilled you are, and the more determined for greatness you are, the higher the chances you will be exciting. Think Ricardo Lopez, Roy Jones, Hearns, Duran, Robinson, Leonard...etc., all of those guys were dominant, defensively sound fighters who were exciting and stopped good n great opposition.

I'm a Floyd fan. Love how slick he is, his work ethic, dedication...etc. my one knock on Floyd, however, is that many times he has had a guy outclassed and been content to just win on points. Additionally, when u talk about destroying a guy in the ring and dominating them like never before...etc., it looks bad to go out and shoe shine and pot shot like he did vs Oscar and Baldomir. Say you will win or outbox them, but don't promise nonstop action and then avoid engaging. Just doesn't look good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imp

Roy jones had both.

He was exciting and occasionally boring when he carried opponents.

This thread is about opponents so lets put floyd and mannys last 3 opponents in a boxing competition...who wins and why?

Is anyone happy to discuss in detail mannys losses or will we continue to duck that question like floyd is ducking manny.

"Imp, stop talking about losses!
Ali was a beaten fighter and he is the greatest!"

Manny is no ali.

Duran..yes..minus the quit in his heart.

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I will talk about the losses, I think it will be enlightening. What's on your mind?