What Era had the Most Talented HeavyWeights?

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Some people think Ali was skilled. He was not. He was fast and, since he fought "big", "slow", "dumb" guys he seemed skilled. This showed when he got slow; even then he got away with it because he was smarter than foreman, etc... Foreman retired and got smarter than the other big dummies he had to fight. watch moorer fight and you'll see and big dumb slow mofo in action.

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IMO: excellent Analysis.

Ali had so much mouth, his persona transcended the sport. He could've been the worlds greatest used car salesman. Sell you a 1970 Pinto & make you think you drove off the lot with a Cadillac..and swore you stole from the car salesman!

What a shame, Dundee couldn't or wouldn't discipline a young clay. Force him to understand fundamentals. Teach him that there would come a time when youth dissipates like smoke in the wind.
Reflexes wither with father time.

Learn fundamentals, gain skill and don't rely on freak-like reflexes and God given talent-alone.

Serious who else in the history of boxing--won a title without having a single highlight reel of them doing (some) (any) body work?

Ali that's who.

What a shame--in my bold assessment Ray Leonard & Roy Jones followed that same path.

Depending so much on talent, they felt no need to do what Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and yes Bernard Hopkins did: learn the craft & master the art of pugilism.

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Great post.

I think there is a fine line. For some athletes the teaching could interfere with the natural gifts they are born with. In many ways, the lack of formality is what made them stand out. Its like the talent almost transcends the sport. I think of Barry Sanders, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordon, Roy Jones and Ali as athletes in that genre. Its like they had a third eye. You don't want to stymy that by telling them how to plant their feet using a boxing 101 handbook.

Roy had a dynamite jab but rarely showed it or used it outside the Paz fight. That's just how good he was. And you cant teach those double/triple feints in the gym. Part ways a little with you on Leonard. Out of those mentioned and other gifted fighters I'd say that Ray was one of the best boxers fundamentally including Robinson. Or lets say he was the one that applied boxing fundamentals the most.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Gene Tunney more skilled than the Klitschko brothers, that's hilarious.

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Why? He moved better, was better defensively. He was noted for having a great jab (Liston's jab was compared to Tunney's), a very hard right hand, for being a very good body puncher, for fighting well inside, and he fought a much much higher level of competition.
The K Bros are tall, jab well, straight right hand, and are tall.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Gene Tunney more skilled than the Klitschko brothers, that's hilarious.

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You really have a blind spot for old time fighters. Have you seen Gene boxer?

From the first round to the last he fought at a good pace. He was very skilled boxer. The guy had a ton of heart to get through Grebb beating. Tunney retired rich and famous what more could you ask for in a heavyweight champion.

OH come on now Tunney is a great fighter ahead of his time but for fuck sack one jab for Wlad and its over pretty fucking much. The hw division is not like others there no limit to it and fuckers have gotten bigger since the 1920's. Reason i have respect for Holyfeild he actually moved up and beat monsters. I mean dont get me wrong Tunney is a great fighter but i rank him more as a lhw then a hw today think he be ok at lhw but put him in with skilled big guy who out weighs him 50 to 60 pounds the guy is kinda fucked pretty much dude.

"1968"

Joe Frazier
Jimmy Ellis
Oscar Bonavena
Sonny Liston
Jerry Quarry
Floyd Patterson
Leotis Martin
Thad Spencer
Buster Mathis
Manuel Ramos
Karl Mildenberger
Henry Cooper
Gregorio Peralta
Al Jones
Eduardo Corletti
Al 'Blue' Lewis
George Chuvalo
Robert Cleroux
Dave Zyglewicz
Mac Foster
Luis Pires
Cleveland Williams
Zora Folley
Tony Doyle
Jack Bodell

C'mon Man

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Gene Tunney more skilled than the Klitschko brothers, that's hilarious.

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You really have a blind spot for old time fighters. Have you seen Gene boxer?

From the first round to the last he fought at a good pace. He was very skilled boxer. The guy had a ton of heart to get through Grebb beating. Tunney retired rich and famous what more could you ask for in a heavyweight champion.

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It's like anything, man, things evolve. When Gene was champ, boxing had been around as we know it (kind of) for what, 30 years? Boxing evolved. He was great for his time, but that style is obsolete. I've seen every Gene fight put on film, you watch those guys and guys that came after them and it's no comparison.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Gene Tunney more skilled than the Klitschko brothers, that's hilarious.

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You really have a blind spot for old time fighters. Have you seen Gene boxer?

From the first round to the last he fought at a good pace. He was very skilled boxer. The guy had a ton of heart to get through Grebb beating. Tunney retired rich and famous what more could you ask for in a heavyweight champion.

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It's like anything, man, things evolve. When Gene was champ, boxing had been around as we know it (kind of) for what, 30 years? Boxing evolved. He was great for his time, but that style is obsolete. I've seen every Gene fight put on film, you watch those guys and guys that came after them and it's no comparison.

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Lol. You think boxing started in 1990 and have no clue how good Tunney was. And again with the film shit. Don't you know how dumb that premise is? There is no film of countless things that are accepted as fact or likely.The same great fighters of past eras would be great today. And if you think anyone is going to look back at footage of Wlad and claim that he was some technical guru while at the same time dismissing Tunney then you are more delusional about past eras then I thought. This is the worst heavyweight division since John L Sullivan and the worst one that I have witnessed in 45 years. Not because I'm lost in the past but because it is period. Half of these clowns cant even fight for 5 rounds. Its pathetic.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Lol. You think boxing started in 1990 and have no clue how good Tunney was. And again with the film shit. Don't you know how dumb that premise is? There is no film of countless things that are accepted as fact or likely.The same great fighters of past eras would be great today. And if you think anyone is going to look back at footage of Wlad and claim that he was some technical guru while at the same time dismissing Tunney then you are more delusional about past eras then I thought. This is the worst heavyweight division since John L Sullivan and the worst one that I have witnessed in 45 years. Not because I'm lost in the past but because it is period. Half of these clowns cant even fight for 5 rounds. Its pathetic.

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Bro all I can do is give fighters the "eye" test. He was a solid fighter, he boxed well, he was good defensively, light on his feet and tied guys up on the inside when he had to. I have no problems with Tunney, I just fail to see what he did better than Wlad in any area. He employed a style that is very outdated, in the same way that guys like Tunney would laugh at a John L Sullivan with his dumb bare-knuckle stance.

I'm a naturally skeptical person, I like forming my own opinions about things, and I don't take the opinions of so-called experts as fact. There's too many people who have this rosy view of old timers that clouds their judgement, they get really romantic over these guys who had to fight 300 times in a career. And in the end, they think it makes them smart to regurgitate what the "experts" say to constantly show people "hey, look at me, I know my boxing history". To me it's just so lame.

I appreciate guys like Tunney and Dempsey because they are pioneers who pushed the sport forward. Just like I appreciate guitarists like Mississippi John Hurt, Les Paul, Jimi Hendrix, Eddie Van Halen, ect because they were guys who pushed the art forward and allowed those who came after them to build on what they had done. But I'm not going to act like their ability is the same as guitarists today. You can go on Youtube and see 14 year old kids who can play better than Jimi or EVH.

And to your statement...

"Don't you know how dumb that premise is? There is no film of countless things that are accepted as fact or likely."

Do I really have to go into the staggering amount of bullshit that was and/or is continued to be passed in society as fact?

We still have laws and rules that are guided by the teachings of an imaginary man in the sky for fucks sakes ;D

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

And to your statement...

"Don't you know how dumb that premise is? There is no film of countless things that are accepted as fact or likely."

Do I really have to go into the staggering amount of bullshit that was and/or is continued to be passed in society as fact?

We still have laws and rules that are guided by the teachings of an imaginary man in the sky for fucks sakes ;D

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Brilliant. You are like me, have to see it to believe it.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

And to your statement...

"Don't you know how dumb that premise is? There is no film of countless things that are accepted as fact or likely."

Do I really have to go into the staggering amount of bullshit that was and/or is continued to be passed in society as fact?

We still have laws and rules that are guided by the teachings of an imaginary man in the sky for fucks sakes ;D

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Like I said, probably the dumbest premise in boxing. "I have to see it" Now apply that flawed belief to everything. Its inane. Its like dismissing all of human history.

I cant be bothered. Total waste of time. Every once in awhile I will call you a dufus but other then that fill your boots. You probably think Beiber is better then the Band and that the acting in Star Trek is better then To Kill a Mocking Bird.

Robinson was a different fighter at 160 then 147 but because there is no footage of him at 147 but a scratchy fight with Fusari where he looks odd so he sucked. Why he is in the top of the 147 lists is beyond me.

Why Joe Gans and Langford are rated so highly is also a puzzle along with the other 100 who remain on Atg status through the ages with little or no footage. Even those who did see them are blind.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Like I said, probably the dumbest premise in boxing. "I have to see it" Now apply that flawed belief to everything. Its inane. Its like dismissing all of human history.

I cant be bothered. Total waste of time. Every once in awhile I will call you a dufus but other then that fill your boots. You probably think Beiber is better then the Band and that the acting in Star Trek is better then To Kill a Mocking Bird.

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You always get huffy, go back to the same old stock ad hominem and accuse me of not knowing anything about boxing pre-1990, you insult my judgement/taste, but you never engage and offer anything of substance to back up your opinion.

It's not an "I Have to see it" argument. We have tape on Wlad, we have tape on Tunney. Gene had some wars with Greb, but what's his most famous fight? The fight considered to be his proudest moment? The fight with Dempsey. We have that on tape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rkwNb4IQXY

I'd love for someone to tell me what exactly he does better than Wlad. I'm not interested in statistics, records, whatever, I'd love for someone who understands the art of boxing to tell me what he does better than Wlad. He was a better mover and more agile, that's for sure, given his much smaller size. But what did he do technically that was so much better than Wlad?

So in essence and based on the criteria of seen little or none, by extension,


Lou Ambers
Baby Arizmendi
Abe Attell
Max Baer
Jimmy Barry
Benny Bass
Battling Battalino
Paul Berlenbach
James J. Braddock
Jack Britton
Lou Brouillard
Panama Al Brown
Newsboy Brown
Tommy Burns
Tony Canzoneri
Georges Carpentier
George (K.O.) Chaney
Kid Chocolate
Joe Choynski
James. J. Corbett
Young Corbett II
Young Corbett III
Johnny Coulon
Eugene Criqui
Les Darcy
Jack Delaney
Jack Dempsey (Nonpareil)
Jack Dempsey
Jack Dillon
Dixie Kid
George Dixon
Jim Driscoll
Johnny Dundee
Sixto Escobar
Jackie Fields
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tiger Flowers
Joe Gans
Frankie Genaro
Mike Gibbons
Tommy Gibbons
George Godfrey
Harry Greb
Young Griffo
Harry Harris
Len Harvey
Pete Herman
Leo Houck
Peter Jackson
Joe Jeannette
James J. Jeffries
Jack Johnson
(Gorilla) Jones
Rocky Kansas
Louis (Kid) Kaplan
Stanley Ketchel
Johnny Kilbane
Jake Kilrain
Frank Klaus
Fidel LaBarba
Sam Langford
George (Kid) Lavigne
Charles Ledoux
Benny Leonard
Battling Levinsky
Harry Lewis
John Henry Lewis
Ted (Kid) Lewis
Tommy Loughran
Benny Lynch
Joe Lynch
Jack McAuliffe
Charles (Kid) McCoy
Packey McFarland
Terry McGovern
Jimmy McLarnin
Sam McVey
Sammy Mandell
Freddie Miller
Billy Miske
Charley Mitchell
Pedro Montanez
Owen Moran
Memphis Pal Moore
Battling Nelson
Kid Norfolk
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Mike O'Dowd
Billy Papke
Billy Petrolle
Wesley Ramey
Willie Ritchie
Maxie Rosenbloom
Barney Ross
Jack Root
Tommy Ryan
Dave Shade
Jack Sharkey
Tom Sharkey
Jimmy Slattery
Mysterious Billy Smith
Jeff Smith
Billy Soose
Freddie Steele
Young Stribling
Charles (Bud) Taylor
Lew Tendler
Marcel Thil
Gene Tunney
Pancho Villa
(Barbados) Joe Walcott
Mickey Walker
Freddie Welsh
Jimmy Wilde
Jess Willard
Kid Williams
Harry Wills
Ad Wolgast
Midget Wolgast
Teddy Yarosz
Sammy Angott
Fred Apostoli
Henry Armstrong
Carmen Basilio
Jackie (Kid) Berg
Jimmy Bivins
Joe Brown
Charley Burley
Orlando Canizales
Miguel Canto
Jimmy Carter
Marcel Cerdan
Antonio Cervantes
Jung-Koo Chang
Billy Conn
Flash Elorde
Bob Foster
Gene Fullmer
Victor Galindez
Kid Gavilan
Joey Giardello
Humberto Gonzalez
Billy Graham
Rocky Graziano
(Fighting) Harada
Beau Jack
Lew Jenkins
Eder Jofre
Ingemar Johansson
Harold Johnson
Mark Johnson
Cocoa Kid
Ismael Laguna
Nicolino Locche
Duilio Loi
Lloyd Marshall
Joey Maxim
Brian Mitchell
Bob Montgomery
Carl (Bobo) Olson
Carlos Ortiz
Manuel Ortiz
Carlos Palomino
Laszlo Papp
Willie Pastrano
Eusebio Pedroza
Willie Pep
Sugar Ramos
Sugar Ray Robinson
Luis Rodriguez
Sandy Saddler
Vicente Saldivar
Dick Tiger
Jose Torres
Holman Williams
Ike Williams
Chalky Wright
Myung - Woo Yuh
Tony Zale
Daniel Zaragoza


All shit fighters.

Tunney was a skilled boxer, that video clip shows that! Tunney was fighting a old but still fierce Dempsey and handles him with ease. What more do you need to see?

Either what might be termed the Klitschko era, or what might be termed the Lewis/Holyfield era.

Tyson himself was spectcular in the 80's in his own right but the other 80's opponents were lack lustre.

Apart from Foreman and Holmes who debuted at earlier times, there was nothing special about any previous HW's from a strictly performance perspective. Maybe from an historical one.

Today, more than at any other time, the fight can be ended with just a single punch, the blows are so hard.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

Either what might be termed the Klitschko era, or what might be termed the Lewis/Holyfield era.

Tyson himself was spectcular in the 80's in his own right but the other 80's opponents were lack lustre.

Apart from Foreman and Holmes who debuted at earlier times, there was nothing special about any previous HW's from a strictly performance perspective. Maybe from an historical one.

Today, more than at any other time, the fight can be ended with just a single punch, the blows are so hard.

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We really missed you funny posts. Where have you been?

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Max Power

Either what might be termed the Klitschko era, or what might be termed the Lewis/Holyfield era.

Tyson himself was spectcular in the 80's in his own right but the other 80's opponents were lack lustre.

Apart from Foreman and Holmes who debuted at earlier times, there was nothing special about any previous HW's from a strictly performance perspective. Maybe from an historical one.

Today, more than at any other time, the fight can be ended with just a single punch, the blows are so hard.

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We really missed you funny posts. Where have you been?

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I was spending too much time on boxing forums so I got banned. And now restricted! LOL

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

So in essence and based on the criteria of seen little or none, by extension,

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You going to offer your expert analysis on how Tunney is better than Wlad, or are you just going to quote statistics and names at me? ;D

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Originally Posted by Master

Tunney was a skilled boxer, that video clip shows that! Tunney was fighting a old but still fierce Dempsey and handles him with ease. What more do you need to see?

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I don't need to see anything, I never said Tunney wasn't a skilled boxer. I'm wondering what he does better than Wlad.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Master

Tunney was a skilled boxer, that video clip shows that! Tunney was fighting a old but still fierce Dempsey and handles him with ease. What more do you need to see?

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I don't need to see anything, I never said Tunney wasn't a skilled boxer. I'm wondering what he does better than Wlad.

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Not get knocked out for a start.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

So in essence and based on the criteria of seen little or none, by extension,

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You going to offer your expert analysis on how Tunney is better than Wlad, or are you just going to quote statistics and names at me? ;D

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The only thing that Gene Tunney and Wladimir Klitschko have in common is that they were at different points in history both CALLED "heavyweight". That is it!

Wladimir Klitschko is approximately 5-6 weight classes above Tunney in effect.

If you WANT to compare Tunney to a modern boxer, fine, but ATLEAST make that comparison to the modern day LHW's and CW's for christ sake.

Kovalev KO3 Tunney lol

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Master

Tunney was a skilled boxer, that video clip shows that! Tunney was fighting a old but still fierce Dempsey and handles him with ease. What more do you need to see?

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I don't need to see anything, I never said Tunney wasn't a skilled boxer. I'm wondering what he does better than Wlad.

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Not get knocked out for a start.

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In heavyweight boxing, even the best fighters lose sometimes and get knocked out sometimes. Only a very few ever escape this fate.

Does it lessen any of them? OF course not! What your basically claiming here is that guys like Dempsey/Marciano are better than all the other champs that did get knocked out.

Completely ignoring the fact that these 2 boxers in particular fought in the war eras where the talent took a MASSIVE dive, and neither man ever even FOUGHT a decent 200+ HW, let alone beat one!

Want to know what would happen if Puritty or Sanders got unleashed against Jack Dempsey?

Purrity would score a touch down.
And Sanders would land a hole in one!

;)

Greynotsoold said other than the size the skill of these fighters like Wlad were not on par with Tunney.

You bring sanders and purity into this just shows the stupidity of your argument. What skill do they have compared to Tunney.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

OH come on now Tunney is a great fighter ahead of his time but for fuck sack one jab for Wlad and its over pretty fucking much. The hw division is not like others there no limit to it and fuckers have gotten bigger since the 1920's. Reason i have respect for Holyfeild he actually moved up and beat monsters. I mean dont get me wrong Tunney is a great fighter but i rank him more as a lhw then a hw today think he be ok at lhw but put him in with skilled big guy who out weighs him 50 to 60 pounds the guy is kinda fucked pretty much dude.

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hahaha...friggin hilarious.
oh, good points as well

Roy jones won the HW title @ 190lbs.
Sure Tunney in theory isnt Rjj, and Ruiz wasnt the best of his era, but it should factor in:If Tunney was ahead of his time then, same for today.
Even Floyd Patterson was considered small for his day, but if there is an example of a small man hanging with the best, I feel Tunney would've been that example over Patterson as well as Marciano. All threee didnt weigh much, but I think...Tunney would have the most success in any era as a small HW.

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Originally Posted by Master

Greynotsoold said other than the size the skill of these fighters like Wlad were not on par with Tunney.

You bring sanders and purity into this just shows the stupidity of your argument. What skill do they have compared to Tunney.

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Sanders is more skilled than Tunney. He has exceptional handspeed and snaky short southpaw inside shots. Sanders is actually a very good boxer, let down only by his conditioning at times.

Puritty is nothing special in the skills department at all, a convert from Gridiron. But Puritty is so strong and powerful there's no contest.

Neither would ever be allowed to knock out Tunney, no fans would ever see them knock out Tunney, they'd both be accused of a disgusting mismatch were they allowed to, and in effect, they would knock Tunney out with the first connected square punch! And brush off anything from Tunney as if it were nothing.

As for Wladimir, your trying to compare the most perfected technical style of all time by far to a crude drunken-style light HW boxer from 100 years ago?

Want to buy a bridge I'm selling Master?

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Roy jones won the HW title @ 190lbs.
Sure Tunney in theory isnt Rjj, and Ruiz wasnt the best of his era, but it should factor in:If Tunney was ahead of his time then, same for today.
Even Floyd Patterson was considered small for his day, but if there is an example of a small man hanging with the best, I feel Tunney would've been that example over Patterson as well as Marciano. All threee didnt weigh much, but I think...Tunney would have the most success in any era as a small HW.

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Roy Jones Jr. was required to weight 200lbs but happened to come in a little lighter than that at weigh in, upper 190's!

Roy Jones Jr. would have run rings and bent around Tunney for as long as he liked and knocked him cold.

Ruiz was a weak champion but he could have EASILY beaten Tunney.

There isn't a modern boxer of any reasonable lever today at HW that Tunney could beat.

SEEEEERiously! LOL :rolleyes:

Max what are you talking about?

Tunney 191lb v Kovolev 175lb and you think Kov wins!

You are a contradiction.

You say these old heavyweights are too small for the heavyweights today yet James Toney, Roy Jones and Chris Byrd can beat them.

Make up your mind.

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Originally Posted by Master

Max what are you talking about?

Tunney 191lb v Kovolev 175lb and you think Kov wins!

You are a contradiction.

You say these old heavyweights are too small for the heavyweights today yet James Toney, Roy Jones and Chris Byrd can beat them.

Make up your mind.

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Agreed. I didn't even question Rjj vs Tunney.

Yeah but Tunney weighed in at 191 without cutting weight, that was his real weight.

Kovalev cuts weight, weights in at 175 and then goes back up to 190, so they're pretty much the same weight.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Yeah but Tunney weighed in at 191 without cutting weight, that was his real weight.

Kovalev cuts weight, weights in at 175 and then goes back up to 190, so they're pretty much the same weight.

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Do you think Kov beats Tunney?

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Yeah but Tunney weighed in at 191 without cutting weight, that was his real weight.

Kovalev cuts weight, weights in at 175 and then goes back up to 190, so they're pretty much the same weight.

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Do you think Kov beats Tunney?

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Shit yeah. Different times, different quality athletes.

Am I saying that Kovalev is a better puncher than Jack Dempsey?

Yes I am.

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

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I agree and Beanflicker and Max Power are blind to it.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

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Gene Tunney didn't even fight the black fighters of his time, and we're going to assume he'd fight a genetic freak like RJJ?

Yeah Tunney looked good, but the fact is he fought in an era where black fighters weren't given shots. Tunney never fought ONE black fighter, and according to some sources refused to even spar with black fighters.

What, am I supposed to believe there were no mean black dudes back then?? ;D

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Originally Posted by Master

Max what are you talking about?

Tunney 191lb v Kovolev 175lb and you think Kov wins!

You are a contradiction.

You say these old heavyweights are too small for the heavyweights today yet James Toney, Roy Jones and Chris Byrd can beat them.

Make up your mind.

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Kovalev undergoes an artificial starvtion and dehydration to come in under his limit. On fight night they are exactly the same size. Except Kovalev is exceptionally better conditioned and skilled and far more powerful and athletic.

The correct statement should be.. "AS IF Gene Tunney could survive more than a round or 2 with Kovalev!"

Since when has size been my only argument? Overall QUALITY has always been my argument. I happen to factor in size to my analysis because it IS such an important aspect demonstrated by common sense and statistical evidence.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

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@Master seemed to agree with your analysis here but let me bring you the news my friend...

- These ancient boxers mentioned ARE largely excluded from fighting HW boxers today as they were because they don't make the limit. They have absolutely NOTHING in common with any HW today, other than the fact that at one stage in history, they were once CALLED Heavyweights. The definition of what it means to be a HW has changed several times since then. Today they would be regarded as "light HW's", not even CW's!

They are EXACTLY comparable with the likes of Sergei Kovalev when considering cross eras. And of course Sergei is a better boxer and better puncher than any of the ancient fighters you mentioned.

- RJJ did not knock out Ruiz for the HW title at all! Moreover, none of the fighters you mentioned are anywhere NEAR comparable in quality to RJJ either!

- You make a statement regarding Tunney being competitive in the modern era and THEN go on to list just not so ancient boxers as potential opponents anyway. However analysing that list, I still don't think Tunney has any real chance of beating them. Not even Floyd Patterson! The best he could hope for is to survive.

- Michael Moorer would have banged Tunney oout with a single punch and is skillwise far removed from Tunney. Axel Schultz? LOL The guy who beat 260lb Foreman? Your crazy! LOL

- The Klitschko era is possibly the strongest era ever in HW boxing. Evidence wise it is the strongest. There's no real debate about that, just US propaganda to the contrary but most people know that any ancient fighter like Tunney or Dempsey would never step foot in a ring with Klitschko or any of their opponents and were they to, they'd be immediately rendered unconscious.

Your post was not worth a single drop of piss in the dessert!

Something positive about Tunney?

He beat what was then the reigning champion of the world. That's it!

He won it against a crude light HW slugger with no appreciable skills, whom achieved his own success via padding his record and avoiding all dangerous opponents. He never faced a black fighter, and he never faced a decent abilitied 200+ HW boxer. They were all bums!

Tunney himself, ALSO ducked coloured fighters.

Imagine if that occurred today?

Tunney has his place in history. The moment you try to compare him to more recent times, it's a joke.

Sergie Kovalev and Roy Jones Jr. would have been the HW champions of the world for as long as they liked and been so dominant nobody would even want to be a boxer with them around. That is a fact!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Max Power

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Braddock, Corbett, Marciano and i believe Dempsey all weighed under 200lbs along with Tunney.

Does that eliminate them from defeating today's fighters?
Once again Rjj won the HW title & hadnt knocked out a single fighter in almost a decade. Omar Sheika.
So it is probable that Tunney could have defeated a few top names from the 60s like Floyd Patterson.
70s Bonevena, Chuavelo, 80s if marvis Frazier got a title shot, Tunney wouldn't have?
And if Tunney's defense can evade a clean shot from Michael moorer, he might have outboxed him as well as the guy Moorer got the title back from: Axel Schultz.

It's all pure speculation, but what is factual?
How many here claim that the Klitshko bros are in a weak era, then turn around and defend it.
Oh Tunney couldnt beat guys in this weak era...

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@Master seemed to agree with your analysis here but let me bring you the news my friend...

- These ancient boxers mentioned ARE largely excluded from fighting HW boxers today as they were because they don't make the limit. They have absolutely NOTHING in common with any HW today, other than the fact that at one stage in history, they were once CALLED Heavyweights. The definition of what it means to be a HW has changed several times since then. Today they would be regarded as "light HW's", not even CW's!

They are EXACTLY comparable with the likes of Sergei Kovalev when considering cross eras. And of course Sergei is a better boxer and better puncher than any of the ancient fighters you mentioned.

- RJJ did not knock out Ruiz for the HW title at all! Moreover, none of the fighters you mentioned are anywhere NEAR comparable in quality to RJJ either!

- You make a statement regarding Tunney being competitive in the modern era and THEN go on to list just not so ancient boxers as potential opponents anyway. However analysing that list, I still don't think Tunney has any real chance of beating them. Not even Floyd Patterson! The best he could hope for is to survive.

- Michael Moorer would have banged Tunney oout with a single punch and is skillwise far removed from Tunney. Axel Schultz? LOL The guy who beat 260lb Foreman? Your crazy! LOL

- The Klitschko era is possibly the strongest era ever in HW boxing. Evidence wise it is the strongest. There's no real debate about that, just US propaganda to the contrary but most people know that any ancient fighter like Tunney or Dempsey would never step foot in a ring with Klitschko or any of their opponents and were they to, they'd be immediately rendered unconscious.

Your post was not worth a single drop of piss in the dessert!

Something positive about Tunney?

He beat what was then the reigning champion of the world. That's it!

He won it against a crude light HW slugger with no appreciable skills, whom achieved his own success via padding his record and avoiding all dangerous opponents. He never faced a black fighter, and he never faced a decent abilitied 200+ HW boxer. They were all bums!

Tunney himself, ALSO ducked coloured fighters.

Imagine if that occurred today?

Tunney has his place in history. The moment you try to compare him to more recent times, it's a joke.

Sergie Kovalev and Roy Jones Jr. would have been the HW champions of the world for as long as they liked and been so dominant nobody would even want to be a boxer with them around. That is a fact!

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I really don't understand your post.

Whether the fighter mentioned is from 1900's Tunney
or
1970's Forman

or 1990's Tua vs a Adamak...

you do realize this is all mythical discussions right?
The thread is which era had the most talented HW's not, which one of us is Miss Cleo possessing knowledge of fights that will never happen. Its called speculation, take a chill pill bro! whew!

Yet you continuously plow through these posts as if you really know who woulda coulda won.

Serious, do I claim anyone in any mythical matchup would win?

No, I usually say IMO, or it appears.
But keep on thinking that yesteryear's fighters would have been blown out, then go on a current mythical match up and you might be the number one person stating someone from the 1990's would have beaten someone from 2014.
A fighter from the past...beating a fighter from the present...:-\