Why is everyone raining on Taeth's parade? :D
Berto is a good prospect, lets see him progress a little before throwing him to the wolves.
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Why is everyone raining on Taeth's parade? :D
Berto is a good prospect, lets see him progress a little before throwing him to the wolves.
Past it Mike McCallum, a much smaller man. He should have fought Reggie Johnson 5 years before at SMW. No, the competition good, but not great, but factor in that Roy had fights at the lower weights against to, maybe three top tier fighters (Hopkins, Toney, and maybe Tate) vs what Shane has fought at the higher weights it wasn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Well Roy Jones did fight Montel Griffin x2, Mike McCallum, Virgil Hill, Antonio Tarver x3, Glen Johnson, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Eric Harding, Reggie Johnson, all at Light Heavyweight which isn't bad at all. And certainly better than Shane Mosley's opposition at Lightweight John John Molina, Philip Holiday, Jesse James Leija, Golden Johnson.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanKind of like Roy's was at LHW? :o Agreed that Shane was best at LW, and it was a relatively weak era. Roy was best at SMW, but he moved up anyway to a safer division. Every notice that that other than James Toney, Roy mostly managed (by luck or by pricing himself) out to avoid the biggest fights out there? It's sad, because he would have beaten Benn or Eubank, but they would have been real challenges and we never got to see it. Too bad Michael Nunn was an idiot and Steve Little had the night of his life. Hmmm. A tall southpaw who can punch...it still upsets me that fight never happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Shane moved up in weight to fight bigger names for bigger money and bigger challenge. He was also a true champion and defended belts in high risk fights - Forrest and more significantly, Winky Wright. Fighting Wright was a terrible business decision. At that time, he was coming off beating Oscar and he could have done what people do today, vacate the belts and made a bigger, safer fight. Taking his career as a whole, Shane took more risks and fought better competition.
The bottom line is the Shane sought out THE BEST and made those fights happen. There was always an excuse, often financial or locational, why Roy didn't fight the BEST.
Berto is good very good in fact skill wise but his chin will let him down he will get KO'd vs Mosely,Margarito,Cotto,Cintron and Williams if he comes back down to Welterweight.
I love the way this thread is titled, you swear berto just beat someone huge, not a former SFW who can't punch for shit. Nothing personal with forbes, i like him, i do. But a BIG WW beating him means sweet FA. Berto would do things in fights like that he may not risk with people his own size or with the power to spark him. And lets not forget Forbes hurt him a few times, stopped him and made him go into a shell for a few minutes, thats not good!
Cotto, margarito, citron, williams, Clottey; If Beto fights any of them in his next 4 fights he will get sparked.
He needs to change his style too, His lead jab is pathetic. It flicks it out and it looks more like a back hand bith slap than a strong stiff stamina draining punch that someone like him should be throwing.
I don't think many people are "doubting" Berto.... they're just saying that he needs to beat a legit top 10 welter before they fully believe that he's a future PFP guy.
Noting about my opinion of berto has changed, he gets better with every fight, overcomes minior hurdles and fights the right people to help him progress. The only two problems i see with the kid after this weekend is he gets too relaxed and big headed at times, and to use a atlas term admires his work way to much, other than that he's right where he needs to be. He's in no apparent hurry to take on the williams, and margarito's of the division and that right now would be his only downfall. I'm much more impressed by this kid than say someone like gamboa.
He didn't fight harder competition at lightweight, James Toney trumps his whole Lightweight roster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Mosley definitely was good, but there are styles that definitely trump him, because he isn't as well rounded.
Yea but besides Toney he was a bit light as well at the weight people find him to be the best in i think Shane looked just unbeatable as well. But moving up in weight is what killed him Forrest would hard fight for alot of people i feel at welter he is a ver big man. I thought shane won the rematch is was much closer then people think. Then there is winkey Wright who is good pound for pound him self but at the weight of 154 Shane is almost 20 pounds over his prime weight. I dont know how a PBF fight would of gone with Forrest but i dont think Floyde could even beat Winky Wright at 154. All i am saying is that Shane had some big wins and i always thought stayed competive in his losses. He even as a pound for pound number one at a point i just think you were being a bit hard on him but at the same time i tend to be hard on Roy Jones Jr as well so.
Never made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanPast it Mike McCallum, a much smaller man. He should have fought Reggie Johnson 5 years before at SMW. No, the competition good, but not great, but factor in that Roy had fights at the lower weights against to, maybe three top tier fighters (Hopkins, Toney, and maybe Tate) vs what Shane has fought at the higher weights it wasn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBWell Roy Jones did fight Montel Griffin x2, Mike McCallum, Virgil Hill, Antonio Tarver x3, Glen Johnson, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Eric Harding, Reggie Johnson, all at Light Heavyweight which isn't bad at all. And certainly better than Shane Mosley's opposition at Lightweight John John Molina, Philip Holiday, Jesse James Leija, Golden Johnson.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
The bottom line is the Shane sought out THE BEST and made those fights happen. There was always an excuse, often financial or locational, why Roy didn't fight the BEST.
I just have to point out that no way Mosley won the rematch against Forrest IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I will say that I am ALWAYS the person to knock Berto... Not cuz I think he's not legit... Just not sold.
I will say that I was quite impressed with his virtual shutout of Forbes... I did give steve 3 rounds.
He looked very good. He showed me alot the other night.
Good for him
Great Speed!
No he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNever made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanPast it Mike McCallum, a much smaller man. He should have fought Reggie Johnson 5 years before at SMW. No, the competition good, but not great, but factor in that Roy had fights at the lower weights against to, maybe three top tier fighters (Hopkins, Toney, and maybe Tate) vs what Shane has fought at the higher weights it wasn't even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
The bottom line is the Shane sought out THE BEST and made those fights happen. There was always an excuse, often financial or locational, why Roy didn't fight the BEST.
Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.
I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.
I did give Shane Mosley credit for the Leija win bro thats why i listed him. As for who Shane Mosley could of fought.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanNo he doesn't. I gave you that Jones's LHW resume is better than Shane's LW, but you can't say he wins comfortably on a career, especially in light of his very close loss to Cotto and his whipping a much larger Mayorga. Jones beat up on a lot of B to B+ fighters, but he avoided the best. Shane fought the best. Funny, you give Shane no credit for the Leija win (because he was past it, you say), but you list Reggie Johnson (past his best) and Mike McCallum (past his best, above his natural weight) as pluses in Roy's favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNever made out it was great competition but you brought up Roy Jones's Light Heavyweight resume so i gave you an example of Jones's opposition being much stronger than Mosley's resume at Lightweight, and even if you go overall Jones still wins it quite comfortably.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Above LW, Shane fought the following: Oscar 2x, Forrest 2x, Winky 2x, Vargas 2x, Collazo, Mayorga, Cotto, and behind that top group, Wilfredo Rivera and Shannon Taylor. If you are going to credit Jones with Reggie Johnson, you better credit Shane with Leija. Can you name a guy that makes you think, wow, I wish Shane would have found a way to make the fight happen!! He has always made great matchups. Jones digs up a retired Tito Trinidad, fights the one of the worst HW beltholders in recent memory, fights guys like McCallum and Reggie Johnson who are past their best. Wastes his time on a bum of the month club when he should have been rematching Toney or Hopkins, or making it happen against Benn, Eubank, or Calzaghe.
I rank Jones above Mosley all-time, p4p, but Shane fought tougher competition, as a whole career. Roy is the better fighter, but Shane is the better man.
Well Stevie Johnston, Paul Spadaforda, Kostya Tszyu, Antonio Margarito, Felix Trinidad, are a few that come to mind.
And if we are comparing the overall record are we just basing it on best wins, or the best fighters they fought ? i'll assume you meaning comparing just the best fighters they fought well in that case.
Roy Jones
Mike McCallum = shot
Montel Griffin x2
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins
Antonio Tarver x3
Eric Harding
Glen Johnson
Virgil Hill
Reggie Johnson = shot
Felix Trinidad = shot
Shane Mosley
Winky Wright x2
Vernon Forrest x2
Ricardo Mayorga = shot
ODLH x2
Fernado Vargas x2 = shot
John John Molina = shot
Jesse James Leija = shot
Philip Holiday
Wilfredo Rivera = Unsure of but for certain past his prime.
Miguel Cotto
Luis Collazo
To be honest i have to admit that is closer than i thought it would, actually looking at it as a whole like this, but i still think Jones edges it. Considering half Mosley's best opposition there were shot fighters.
Well you could say Hopkins was not prime and Toney was weigth drained.
Roy Jones Jr was more green than Bernard Hopkins so thats not a valid excuse, James Toney was a top 3 P4P fighter and always had weight problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140