Which draw was the biggest robbery?

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12-20-2010, 09:37 PM
JazMerkin

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Chino

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

On another note the fight was at a catchweight of 145 pounds. But since it's not Pacquiao, it's okay for others to fight at catchweights.:p

Did they do catchweight fights all the time, or at least most, like Pacquiao? :rolleyes:

Manny
57 fights
2 catchweights

Oscar
45 fights
2 catchweight

B Hop
59 fights
3 catchweights

BHop and Oscar are the catchweight kings of our era.

To be fair to Hopkins though, in all 3 occasions he was the guy having to cut down in weight to come to a fair CW.

I also thought that the Calzaghe fight had Warren put in a catchweight limit of like 173?

I think it's the guy who asks for the catchweight who should become the 'catchweight king'.

Anyway back to your original point, it's got to be Whitaker-Chavez, I've never had that closer than 10-2 when scoring it. It was a clinic.

More often than not the bigger guys wins though. It's actually quite rare for the smaller guy to win a catchweight fight, and when they do they were nearly always the big pre fight favourite in the first place. The rampant weight draining from catchweight fights that captures the imaginations of the Saddo critics has very rarely been witnessed in the ring.

Not exactly how it works.

Let's break down some catchweight fights

Ray Leonard vs Donny Lalonde @ 168 - smaller guy won

Arturo Gatti vs Micky Ward I, II, III @ 142 - smaller guy 2 bigger guy 1

Oscar De La Hoya vs Bernard Hopkins @ 157 - bigger guy

Bernard Hopkins vs Winky Wright @ 170 - bigger guy

Oscar De La Hoya vs Steve Forbes - bigger guy

Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - smaller guy

Bernard Hopkins vs Kelly Pavlik - bigger guy

Manny Pacquiao vs Miguel Cotto - smaller guy

Manny Pacquiao vs Antonio Margarito - smaller guy

So if we count the Gatti-Ward trilogy as a single win for smaller it's 5-4 in the end of the smaller guy. Does that mean they were weight drained. No, not in my opinion.

In all those cases, with the possible exceptions of Calzaghe/Hopkins & Gatti/Ward I, the guy who I think we would all say is the better, more talented boxer won. I think that's what it's really about. I don't agree with draining opponents, because if you'd ever boxed you'd understand every pound when making a weight limit is a pain in the arse, but I don't think that's why they lost those fights. The one exception there maybe being SRL/Lalonde because he had to drop 7lbs which is way too much.
12-20-2010, 09:56 PM
Kev

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chino

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

On another note the fight was at a catchweight of 145 pounds. But since it's not Pacquiao, it's okay for others to fight at catchweights.:p

Did they do catchweight fights all the time, or at least most, like Pacquiao? :rolleyes:

Manny
57 fights
2 catchweights

Oscar
45 fights
2 catchweight

B Hop
59 fights
3 catchweights

BHop and Oscar are the catchweight kings of our era.

To be fair to Hopkins though, in all 3 occasions he was the guy having to cut down in weight to come to a fair CW.

I also thought that the Calzaghe fight had Warren put in a catchweight limit of like 173?

I think it's the guy who asks for the catchweight who should become the 'catchweight king'.

Anyway back to your original point, it's got to be Whitaker-Chavez, I've never had that closer than 10-2 when scoring it. It was a clinic.

More often than not the bigger guys wins though. It's actually quite rare for the smaller guy to win a catchweight fight, and when they do they were nearly always the big pre fight favourite in the first place. The rampant weight draining from catchweight fights that captures the imaginations of the Saddo critics has very rarely been witnessed in the ring.

Not exactly how it works.

Let's break down some catchweight fights

Ray Leonard vs Donny Lalonde @ 168 - smaller guy won

Arturo Gatti vs Micky Ward I, II, III @ 142 - smaller guy 2 bigger guy 1

Oscar De La Hoya vs Bernard Hopkins @ 157 - bigger guy

Bernard Hopkins vs Winky Wright @ 170 - bigger guy

Oscar De La Hoya vs Steve Forbes - bigger guy

Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - smaller guy

Bernard Hopkins vs Kelly Pavlik - bigger guy

Manny Pacquiao vs Miguel Cotto - smaller guy

Manny Pacquiao vs Antonio Margarito - smaller guy

So if we count the Gatti-Ward trilogy as a single win for smaller it's 5-4 in the end of the smaller guy. Does that mean they were weight drained. No, not in my opinion.

In all those cases, with the possible exceptions of Calzaghe/Hopkins & Gatti/Ward I, the guy who I think we would all say is the better, more talented boxer won. I think that's what it's really about. I don't agree with draining opponents, because if you'd ever boxed you'd understand every pound when making a weight limit is a pain in the arse, but I don't think that's why they lost those fights. The one exception there maybe being SRL/Lalonde because he had to drop 7lbs which is way too much.

That's exactly what I meant. I can't think of any big catchweight upsets where the bigger guy was the favourite and lost due to being weight drained. If you look at your list in the light of that Manny's catchweight wins look very very impressive imo they clearly go against the historical grain. Can you think of any much much smaller fighters who have catchweights like he has? I'm scratching my head.

Calzaghe was a big favourite over Hopkins too. Weight had nothing whastsoever to do with it. Now age on the other hand....
12-20-2010, 10:02 PM
JazMerkin

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazMerkin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chino

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

On another note the fight was at a catchweight of 145 pounds. But since it's not Pacquiao, it's okay for others to fight at catchweights.:p

Did they do catchweight fights all the time, or at least most, like Pacquiao? :rolleyes:

Manny
57 fights
2 catchweights

Oscar
45 fights
2 catchweight

B Hop
59 fights
3 catchweights

BHop and Oscar are the catchweight kings of our era.

To be fair to Hopkins though, in all 3 occasions he was the guy having to cut down in weight to come to a fair CW.

I also thought that the Calzaghe fight had Warren put in a catchweight limit of like 173?

I think it's the guy who asks for the catchweight who should become the 'catchweight king'.

Anyway back to your original point, it's got to be Whitaker-Chavez, I've never had that closer than 10-2 when scoring it. It was a clinic.

More often than not the bigger guys wins though. It's actually quite rare for the smaller guy to win a catchweight fight, and when they do they were nearly always the big pre fight favourite in the first place. The rampant weight draining from catchweight fights that captures the imaginations of the Saddo critics has very rarely been witnessed in the ring.

Not exactly how it works.

Let's break down some catchweight fights

Ray Leonard vs Donny Lalonde @ 168 - smaller guy won

Arturo Gatti vs Micky Ward I, II, III @ 142 - smaller guy 2 bigger guy 1

Oscar De La Hoya vs Bernard Hopkins @ 157 - bigger guy

Bernard Hopkins vs Winky Wright @ 170 - bigger guy

Oscar De La Hoya vs Steve Forbes - bigger guy

Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - smaller guy

Bernard Hopkins vs Kelly Pavlik - bigger guy

Manny Pacquiao vs Miguel Cotto - smaller guy

Manny Pacquiao vs Antonio Margarito - smaller guy

So if we count the Gatti-Ward trilogy as a single win for smaller it's 5-4 in the end of the smaller guy. Does that mean they were weight drained. No, not in my opinion.

In all those cases, with the possible exceptions of Calzaghe/Hopkins & Gatti/Ward I, the guy who I think we would all say is the better, more talented boxer won. I think that's what it's really about. I don't agree with draining opponents, because if you'd ever boxed you'd understand every pound when making a weight limit is a pain in the arse, but I don't think that's why they lost those fights. The one exception there maybe being SRL/Lalonde because he had to drop 7lbs which is way too much.

That's exactly what I meant. I can't think of any big catchweight upsets where the bigger guy was the favourite and lost due to being weight drained. If you look at your list in the light of that Manny's catchweight wins look very very impressive imo they clearly go against the historical grain. Can you think of any much much smaller fighters who have catchweights like he has? I'm scratching my head.

Calzaghe was a big favourite over Hopkins too. Weight had nothing whastsoever to do with it. Now age on the other hand....

Like I said, the only one where I think weight played a part in the outcome was the SRL/Lalonde fight. Perhaps the ODLH/Forbes fight as well, as Oscar looked really listless & out of it & I thought it was much closer than the final scorecards against an opponent he should have boxed rings round. I don't think any of the others would have changed much given that extra couple of pounds. I certainly don't think the Pacquiao fights would have.
12-20-2010, 10:55 PM
hardcore_crash

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

LMAO

Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??

IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.

They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.
12-20-2010, 11:24 PM
generalbulldog

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

LMAO

Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??

IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.

They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.

hahahaha. This is the type of response I was talking about in other threads about people being inconsistent about criticizing catchweight bouts. It's alright for other guys to demand catchweights such as DLH, Leonard, Chavez, because they weren't looking to do it for advantageous reasons, they only did it as a median. LMFAO!
12-21-2010, 12:50 AM
X

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Hearns - Leonard II
12-21-2010, 12:51 AM
hardcore_crash

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

LMAO

Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??

IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.

They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.

hahahaha. This is the type of response I was talking about in other threads about people being inconsistent about criticizing catchweight bouts. It's alright for other guys to demand catchweights such as DLH, Leonard, Chavez, because they weren't looking to do it for advantageous reasons, they only did it as a median. LMFAO!

Listen, when you spend the last TWO YEARS asking for catch weights for EVERYONE around 140-154 then there is a difference.

For forbes, de la hoya asked for 150 because he was planning on fighting at a weight he hadn't fought in over a decade.

He looked fat and out of shape for Felix, so the Bernard fight he did look more in shape at a catch weight.

NO ONE and I mean NO ONE has asked for as much catch weights as Pacquioa.
And the reason I said he uses it to his advantage is this,,,,
Pac was ok to fight DLH at 147, then Hatton at 140, all of a sudden he needs a fight with the champ at 145 with Cotto, Next fight its ok at 147.

As much as you like to think you are subjective you are really not, and spend a lot more time defending Pacquiao than you would like to admit.
12-21-2010, 01:29 AM
generalbulldog

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

Quote:

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

LMAO

Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??

IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.

They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.

hahahaha. This is the type of response I was talking about in other threads about people being inconsistent about criticizing catchweight bouts. It's alright for other guys to demand catchweights such as DLH, Leonard, Chavez, because they weren't looking to do it for advantageous reasons, they only did it as a median. LMFAO!

Listen, when you spend the last TWO YEARS asking for catch weights for EVERYONE around 140-154 then there is a difference.

For forbes, de la hoya asked for 150 because he was planning on fighting at a weight he hadn't fought in over a decade.

He looked fat and out of shape for Felix, so the Bernard fight he did look more in shape at a catch weight.

NO ONE and I mean NO ONE has asked for as much catch weights as Pacquioa.
And the reason I said he uses it to his advantage is this,,,,
Pac was ok to fight DLH at 147, then Hatton at 140, all of a sudden he needs a fight with the champ at 145 with Cotto, Next fight its ok at 147.

As much as you like to think you are subjective you are really not, and spend a lot more time defending Pacquiao than you would like to admit.

Pacquiao only has fought at 2 catchweight fights the same as De La Hoya. So it's okay for DLH to ask for catchweight fights but not Pacquiao? Right! And Leonard fought at 3 catchweight fights more than Pacquiao has. That's actually1 of the most in modern times.

It's either are catchweight fights are okay or not? Not try to say it's okay for certain boxers while it's not okay for another. You're either for it, against it or don't really care.

At least some posters here like Miles are consistent, that they criticize any boxer that uses it not try to find some excuse why it's okay for their favorite fighter to use it and then criticize another for doing the same thing.
12-21-2010, 01:35 AM
Kev

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

LMAO

Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??

IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.

They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.

This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D

Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.

Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)
12-21-2010, 12:33 PM
Jimanuel Boogustus

Quote:

Originally Posted by :::PSL:::

Martinez-Cintron for me.

Oh fuck yeah! Good choice!!
I mean, when you knock a guy out and then continue to beat if shit out of him and still only get a draw, you know something is seriously wrong.
12-21-2010, 02:44 PM
amat

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

On the list, there are some appalling ones. I have to go with Whitaker-Chavez. As others have said, it wasn't even close. I have never trusted a Brit scoring a fight since, Mickey Vann is an ass.

Leonard-Hearns II, Martinez-Cintron, Lewis-Holyfield I, Spadafora-Dorin, Funeka-Guzman were all outright robberies with blind men scoring them. Or maybe Brits scored all those too.

Wright-Taylor, Ortiz-Peterson and Pascal-Hopkins just barely fall below the robbery line imo but not by much. Don't get me wrong though because I was screaming about how Wright got robbed more then anybody at the time. Dokes-Weaver II (after the first had been stopped waaay prematurely) was another, Dokes fought valiantly but was beaten up that fight. Hagler versus the Italian guy too. It's hard to score those fights for Dokes and Antufuermo (I think thats how it's spelled, how it's pronounced)
12-21-2010, 05:37 PM
generalbulldog

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Hagler-Antuofermo was definitely a robbery.
12-21-2010, 06:12 PM
Master

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Lewis v Holyfield was the biggest robbery for me.
12-21-2010, 08:44 PM
hardcore_crash

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

LMAO

Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??

IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.

They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.

This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D

Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.

Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)

Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title

Do I need to say more??:lol:

Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.

Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:
12-21-2010, 09:01 PM
generalbulldog

Re: Which draw was the biggest robbery?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

LMAO

Why do you think in all of those catch weight fights no one lost due to being drained??

IT BECAUSE NEITHER FIGHTER WHO ASKED FOR THE CATCH WEIGHT DID IT FOR ADVANTAGEOUS REASONS.

They did it as a median, not to have as many advantages over the other fighter, or take hope that fighter won't be at there best.

This must surely go down as one of the greatest comments ever made on Saddo's imo. So all the other catchweights in history were amicable, fair, favouring neither man, apart from Manny's ;D

Cotto who had to give up a single pound in weight.
Margarito who was actually allowed to move up a weight class and weigh 4 lbs MORE than he did against Margarito.

Brilliant. You couldn't make this kind of hate up :)

Pacquiao-Mosley Possible at 148, For WBC 154 title

Do I need to say more??:lol:

Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to tell you, or you choose not to; but Pacquiao has asked for catch weights for about two years now for just about everyone.
2 of last 3 fights have been catch weights. Or two fights in the last year have been catch weight. If I didn't have to CONSTANTLY see new weights for which Pac wants to fight different opponents maybe it would be different. But he has a different weight for a different fighter.

Manny has even asked Mosley to come down to LWW before :vd:

The article was written by Lem Satterfield, Michael Marley's equivalent but on the other side.

The same guy that reported Clottey was at a catchweight. BTW the article did state there is a possiblity but more than likely it will not be at catchweight. Looks like the joke is on you.;)

Almost as good as your other post that guys like Leonard, DLH, Chavez that asked for catchweights did it not to gain an advantage but as a median.

It's either you are for or against it, not pick 1 guy is allowed to do it while another guy can't.

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