Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
Bilbo
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Originally Posted by
miles
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Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Oh and as for people not making a big deal out of Oscar's world titles, isn't he like one of the top 5 biggest boxing stars in history? :confused:
Have you ever even listened to one of his prefight ring introductions. I would say the boxing world cares and makes a big deal..
And since when did you start defending the orange girl? Shame on you, Bilbo!
No defense from me. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is to say that the boxing world doesn't give Oscar any props for his six world titles at different weights.
The man is feted as a God practically.
Anyway, Manny rules, on this we agree, well on earth at least. The heavens belong to God and Jesus will take over the real p4p when He returns, as we both well know and agree.
Manny is a modern great and I have reluctantly conceded this on numerous occasions. The man fights and he fights extremely solid opposition. That is a fact. Martinez does too and where you place them on hypothetical p4p lists all boils down to what you favour. I think Martinez has the slightly more spectacular trajectory with no questions asked, but have no issues if others prefer Manny. I think most of us agree that Floyd just bugger off now.
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
There shouldn't even be a P4P list on active fighters. Ok then, Floyd is inactive so sure put him at the top of the list.
How do you consistently compare fighters from the lower weight-classes and the upper weight-classes? They are so different physically. Compare Naz and Ali and how tell me what criteria you use to "prove" who is the better boxer?
P4P is nonsense turned into a marketing goldmine. The next step is for Ring Magazine to start by giving out a belt and start charging for sanctioned fights. Wait a sec. What? Why Ring Mag? Why not Saddo?
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
miles
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
miles
Sure fighters aren't as active as in the past, but to hardened boxing fans PFP does matter. Whats a hardened boxing fan and define it. Personally, it isn't something I care too much about because it is extremely subjective, but I can see why some fans take it quite seriously. Wait a second... you just tried to justify it? I do think that if a current PFP list is to exist in the eyes of fans then it should consist of current active fighters who are taking part in meaningful bouts, even if only twice a year. The term p4p should be stricken from the list.
Floyd for me is disqualified in that regard. In what regard? And Floyd coming back and beating Paulie Malignaggi or whoever should not be enough to put him at the top of the pile. If Floyd wants a tune up then so be it. He needs to make the meaningful fights that exist out there for him and that means Manny or Martinez. You can't come back and be top dog on the back of tune up fights. Leonard came off a three year retirement. Can Floyd still beat the best in his mid 30's? Can Hopkins? There is no sign of us finding out as of yet and tune ups aren't going to help us distinguish anything.
I agree with Elterrible that Martinez is the most impressive fighter today in that regard. Straight fights against very solid opposition. No catchweights, no questionable timing of opponents etc. The man is on the trajectory up. Manny has stalled with his leftovers and Floyd has gone AWOL.
No argument on Martinez. Put my answers in bold Ftr.
PFP is about opinions. I put forth earlier that it was my opinion that a year out with no fight planned = disqualification. He has no reason to be in any list, he is effectively retired.
If Floyd wants a tune up then fair enough, but it isn't enough to catapult him back to the top of any list. You have to beat meaningful opposition to deserve PFP status and not just wins attained however many years ago.
Leonard did indeed come back off of a long layoff, but for those 18 months when there NOTHING happening then he too was effectively retired. Didn't he say as much too?
Hopkins can and does compete, he hasn't retired. He has fought stiff opposition in Pascal, Calzaghe and Pavlik.
Thanks for clarifying that. Its a crock. A popularity contest with no basis in fact. Its a buzz word like you see in power point presentations.
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
miles
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Sure fighters aren't as active as in the past, but to hardened boxing fans PFP does matter. Whats a hardened boxing fan and define it. Personally, it isn't something I care too much about because it is extremely subjective, but I can see why some fans take it quite seriously. Wait a second... you just tried to justify it? I do think that if a current PFP list is to exist in the eyes of fans then it should consist of current active fighters who are taking part in meaningful bouts, even if only twice a year. The term p4p should be stricken from the list.
Floyd for me is disqualified in that regard. In what regard? And Floyd coming back and beating Paulie Malignaggi or whoever should not be enough to put him at the top of the pile. If Floyd wants a tune up then so be it. He needs to make the meaningful fights that exist out there for him and that means Manny or Martinez. You can't come back and be top dog on the back of tune up fights. Leonard came off a three year retirement. Can Floyd still beat the best in his mid 30's? Can Hopkins? There is no sign of us finding out as of yet and tune ups aren't going to help us distinguish anything.
I agree with Elterrible that Martinez is the most impressive fighter today in that regard. Straight fights against very solid opposition. No catchweights, no questionable timing of opponents etc. The man is on the trajectory up. Manny has stalled with his leftovers and Floyd has gone AWOL.
No argument on Martinez. Put my answers in bold Ftr.
PFP is about opinions. I put forth earlier that it was my opinion that a year out with no fight planned = disqualification. He has no reason to be in any list, he is effectively retired.
If Floyd wants a tune up then fair enough, but it isn't enough to catapult him back to the top of any list. You have to beat meaningful opposition to deserve PFP status and not just wins attained however many years ago.
Leonard did indeed come back off of a long layoff, but for those 18 months when there NOTHING happening then he too was effectively retired. Didn't he say as much too?
Hopkins can and does compete, he hasn't retired. He has fought stiff opposition in Pascal, Calzaghe and Pavlik.
Thanks for clarifying that. Its a crock. A popularity contest with no basis in fact. Its a buzz word like you see in power point presentations.
I think we basically agree on this really. I rarely get into those kinds of threads where people are positing endless lists of P4P fighters and arguing back and forth on it. I do believe that inactivity should automoatically exclude a fighter from such lists and I do believe it quite sensible to come to relatively sane conclusions concerning who the top fighters are, but coming up with long lists and debating it is beyond me. I just don't care enough about that really. Yeah, to a large extent I think it probably is about people going on what they like and that is what the Manny/Floyd debate is often about. I think it is a very valid argument to dismiss a fighter who doesn't fight though and I think that is a very simple argument to make and Floyd is what this thread is all about.
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
miles
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Originally Posted by
IamInuit
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Originally Posted by
miles
Sure fighters aren't as active as in the past, but to hardened boxing fans PFP does matter. Whats a hardened boxing fan and define it. Personally, it isn't something I care too much about because it is extremely subjective, but I can see why some fans take it quite seriously. Wait a second... you just tried to justify it? I do think that if a current PFP list is to exist in the eyes of fans then it should consist of current active fighters who are taking part in meaningful bouts, even if only twice a year. The term p4p should be stricken from the list.
Floyd for me is disqualified in that regard. In what regard? And Floyd coming back and beating Paulie Malignaggi or whoever should not be enough to put him at the top of the pile. If Floyd wants a tune up then so be it. He needs to make the meaningful fights that exist out there for him and that means Manny or Martinez. You can't come back and be top dog on the back of tune up fights. Leonard came off a three year retirement. Can Floyd still beat the best in his mid 30's? Can Hopkins? There is no sign of us finding out as of yet and tune ups aren't going to help us distinguish anything.
I agree with Elterrible that Martinez is the most impressive fighter today in that regard. Straight fights against very solid opposition. No catchweights, no questionable timing of opponents etc. The man is on the trajectory up. Manny has stalled with his leftovers and Floyd has gone AWOL.
No argument on Martinez. Put my answers in bold Ftr.
PFP is about opinions. I put forth earlier that it was my opinion that a year out with no fight planned = disqualification. He has no reason to be in any list, he is effectively retired.
If Floyd wants a tune up then fair enough, but it isn't enough to catapult him back to the top of any list. You have to beat meaningful opposition to deserve PFP status and not just wins attained however many years ago.
Leonard did indeed come back off of a long layoff, but for those 18 months when there NOTHING happening then he too was effectively retired. Didn't he say as much too?
Hopkins can and does compete, he hasn't retired. He has fought stiff opposition in Pascal, Calzaghe and Pavlik.
Thanks for clarifying that. Its a crock. A popularity contest with no basis in fact. Its a buzz word like you see in power point presentations.
I think we basically agree on this really. I rarely get into those kinds of threads where people are positing endless lists of P4P fighters and arguing back and forth on it. I do believe that inactivity should automoatically exclude a fighter from such lists and I do believe it quite sensible to come to relatively sane conclusions concerning who the top fighters are, but coming up with long lists and debating it is beyond me. I just don't care enough about that really. Yeah, to a large extent I think it probably is about people going on what they like and that is what the Manny/Floyd debate is often about. I think it is a very valid argument to dismiss a fighter who doesn't fight though and I think that is a very simple argument to make and Floyd is what this thread is all about.
Fair enough. I suppose it makes a great deal to Floyd to be removed from this list. Like Leonard coming off a 3 year retirement to fight Hagler.
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
He'd do better to concentrate of being ranked top of his division. If Mosley pulls off a tko win vs Manny why can I actually see Mayweather never fighting again and resting on 'well, I beat Shane' ???
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
He'd do better to concentrate of being ranked top of his division. If Mosley pulls off a tko win vs Manny why can I actually see Mayweather never fighting again and resting on 'well, I beat Shane' ???
He's actually the lineal champion of everything but Ring Magazine for some reason. Ring has some odd attitudes towards lineage, that aren't replicated elsewhere.
Anyway, that aside, he should be removed if it's a year without fighting, but if he doesn't it's not the end of the world. The Pound for Pound is hardly definitive. What I wonder is if he were to sign to fight Pacquiao two weeks after Pac beats Mosley, do we then say ok he's back at #2?
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
He'd do better to concentrate of being ranked top of his division. If Mosley pulls off a tko win vs Manny why can I actually see Mayweather never fighting again and resting on 'well, I beat Shane' ???
He's actually the lineal champion of everything but Ring Magazine for some reason. Ring has some odd attitudes towards lineage, that aren't replicated elsewhere.
Anyway, that aside, he should be removed if it's a year without fighting, but if he doesn't it's not the end of the world. The Pound for Pound is hardly definitive. What I wonder is if he were to sign to fight Pacquiao two weeks after Pac beats Mosley, do we then say ok he's back at #2?
Agree yeh. No fight, no rank, simple as. The only reason he fought JMM was to clamor and retake the p4p spot after hiatus. I wouldn't no...not until he fights. p4p has become another unneeded watered down division.
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
Marvin Hagler only fought about once per year from '85 to '87 and was still recognized as the best fighter in the sport. So Floyd is effectively fighting once per year now, if he doesn't return and fight again this year, you can remove him. But I have a feeling a showdown with Pac may materialize in the fall.
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Marvin Hagler only fought about once per year from '85 to '87 and was still recognized as the best fighter in the sport. So Floyd is effectively fighting once per year now, if he doesn't return and fight again this year, you can remove him. But I have a feeling a showdown with Pac may materialize in the fall.
This is my thinking. If I were the Ring board I would be smart and say that they're treating Mayweather's legal issues (which run from last September to this month) as they did Izzy & Rafa's injuries & give him a 3-6 month extension. That way if he does sign to fight Pacquiao in September/November, then they're covered. If he doesn't then drop him. It means that they don't have to parachute him back in afterwards & we get a Ring champion rather than acting like Andre Berto is the 2nd best 147lber in the world.
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
MMASUX
I know that Dan Rafeal is removing him from his P4P on May 1st. That will be 1 year inactive, at that point i think it's only right. 1 year is a long time to be in the p4p without fighting. In my opinion all p4p list should remove him on May 1st.
If anything, this.
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
Bilbo
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Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
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Originally Posted by
Bilbo
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Originally Posted by
miles
Sure fighters aren't as active as in the past, but to hardened boxing fans PFP does matter. Personally, it isn't something I care too much about because it is extremely subjective, but I can see why some fans take it quite seriously. I do think that if a current PFP list is to exist in the eyes of fans then it should consist of current active fighters who are taking part in meaningful bouts, even if only twice a year.
Floyd for me is disqualified in that regard. And Floyd coming back and beating Paulie Malignaggi or whoever should not be enough to put him at the top of the pile. He needs to make the meaningful fights that exist out there for him and that means Manny or Martinez. You can't come back and be top dog on the back of tune up fights. Can Floyd still beat the best in his mid 30's? There is no sign of us finding out as of yet and tune ups aren't going to help us distinguish anything.
I agree with Elterrible that Martinez is the most impressive fighter today in that regard. Straight fights against very solid opposition. No catchweights, no questionable timing of opponents etc. The man is on the trajectory up. Manny has stalled with his leftovers and Floyd has gone AWOL.
Actually Martinez's last two fights have been at catchweight. You just didn't notice because Sergio's name is not Manny Pacqiao.
Also he defended his 160 title last time out against a fighter from the 154 lb division who was not only completely unranked at 160 lbs but had never fought in that weight class either. Again, none of you noticed this because Sergio's name is not Manny Pacquiao :)
who did the Catchweight favor? Williams and Dzinziruk
at what weight did Sergio Martinez win the LINEAL MIDDLEWEIGHT championship against the then LINEAL MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION Kelly Pavlik? oh right 160
Pacquiao's last two "titles at different weight classes" have been won at catch weights, so if you really don't even count those two it's 6, tieing DLH which all of a sudden doesn't sound so stellar seeing how no one made that big of a deal when DLH was the only 6 weight class champion in the history of the sport :-\
I have no problem with Martinez at all I'm just highlighting the inconsistencies here.
The rest of your post exposes you to more easy criticism though. I'm tempted to go there, highlighting Pavliks devastingly one sided loss to B Hop that had Manny fought a fighter coming off that performace would have been met with derision for example. Or maybe to argue your point that seems to be catchweights are good as long as they don't disadvantage one opponent, and explain to you that Margarito was allowed by Manny to weigh a full 3 lbs more than when Shane Mosley fought him a year before which surely meant the catchweight was to his advantage more than Manny's,
Had Manny fought him at 147 he would have won even easier, but instead he allowed him to gain three pounds more. That says a lot imo.
Anyway, I won't go there. :)
Martinez didn't pick up Pavlik right after the defeat, he had bounced back and was still undefeated at Middleweight, unlike Manny picking up Mayweather's leftovers in Mosley who didn't even win a fight in 2010, the catchweight against Margarito still benefited Pacquiao cause it was only at 150 so that Manny could say he "fought at jr.middleweight" and pick up a trinket then go on to call himself champion, if at 150 Margarito was able to hurt Manny with a whack on his back i'm sure those extra 4 lbs. would have had an impact, Manny fighting Margarito at 150 doesn't say anything to me other than he's used a lot of smoke and mirrors to get to the point he is now, if he would have beaten Dzinziruk the way he did Margarito at the full weight limit than i'd be inclined to say different, but apart from a certain nuthugger who really thought that Margarito was going to win? no one, same thing going on against Shane, it's easy to flip shit around to get it to work in your favor hell you do it all the time
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
Manny is #1 p4p today.
But I have a few questions for somebody.
Did Manny clean out the division as he moved up in weight or did he handpicked his opponents?
Who was kingpin at 135 when Manny fought Diaz?
Smart fight to take when he fought DLH, but who was kingpin at 147 or 140?
Was Ricky Hatton still the king at 140 eventhough he got KO'ed by Mayweather? Who else was on top?
Was Cotto kingpin at 147 when Manny KO'ed him at a catchweight? Remember, Margarito just plastered him.
Was Clottey the best opponent when they fought?
Was Margarito the best opponent for Pacman, eventhogh he should not have got a big payday?
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
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Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Sure fighters aren't as active as in the past, but to hardened boxing fans PFP does matter. Personally, it isn't something I care too much about because it is extremely subjective, but I can see why some fans take it quite seriously. I do think that if a current PFP list is to exist in the eyes of fans then it should consist of current active fighters who are taking part in meaningful bouts, even if only twice a year.
Floyd for me is disqualified in that regard. And Floyd coming back and beating Paulie Malignaggi or whoever should not be enough to put him at the top of the pile. He needs to make the meaningful fights that exist out there for him and that means Manny or Martinez. You can't come back and be top dog on the back of tune up fights. Can Floyd still beat the best in his mid 30's? There is no sign of us finding out as of yet and tune ups aren't going to help us distinguish anything.
I agree with Elterrible that Martinez is the most impressive fighter today in that regard. Straight fights against very solid opposition. No catchweights, no questionable timing of opponents etc. The man is on the trajectory up. Manny has stalled with his leftovers and Floyd has gone AWOL.
Actually Martinez's last two fights have been at catchweight. You just didn't notice because Sergio's name is not Manny Pacqiao.
Also he defended his 160 title last time out against a fighter from the 154 lb division who was not only completely unranked at 160 lbs but had never fought in that weight class either. Again, none of you noticed this because Sergio's name is not Manny Pacquiao :)
who did the Catchweight favor? Williams and Dzinziruk
at what weight did Sergio Martinez win the LINEAL MIDDLEWEIGHT championship against the then LINEAL MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION Kelly Pavlik? oh right 160
Pacquiao's last two "titles at different weight classes" have been won at catch weights, so if you really don't even count those two it's 6, tieing DLH which all of a sudden doesn't sound so stellar seeing how no one made that big of a deal when DLH was the only 6 weight class champion in the history of the sport :-\
I have no problem with Martinez at all I'm just highlighting the inconsistencies here.
The rest of your post exposes you to more easy criticism though. I'm tempted to go there, highlighting Pavliks devastingly one sided loss to B Hop that had Manny fought a fighter coming off that performace would have been met with derision for example. Or maybe to argue your point that seems to be catchweights are good as long as they don't disadvantage one opponent, and explain to you that Margarito was allowed by Manny to weigh a full 3 lbs more than when Shane Mosley fought him a year before which surely meant the catchweight was to his advantage more than Manny's,
Had Manny fought him at 147 he would have won even easier, but instead he allowed him to gain three pounds more. That says a lot imo.
Anyway, I won't go there. :)
Martinez didn't pick up Pavlik right after the defeat, he had bounced back and was still undefeated at Middleweight, unlike Manny picking up Mayweather's leftovers in Mosley who didn't even win a fight in 2010, the catchweight against Margarito still benefited Pacquiao cause it was only at 150 so that Manny could say he "fought at jr.middleweight" and pick up a trinket then go on to call himself champion, if at 150 Margarito was able to hurt Manny with a whack on his back i'm sure those extra 4 lbs. would have had an impact, Manny fighting Margarito at 150 doesn't say anything to me other than he's used a lot of smoke and mirrors to get to the point he is now, if he would have beaten Dzinziruk the way he did Margarito at the full weight limit than i'd be inclined to say different, but
apart from a certain nuthugger who really thought that Margarito was going to win? no one, same thing going on against Shane, it's easy to flip shit around to get it to work in your favor hell you do it all the time
Unlike the heralded Dzinziruk you mean who everybody was certain was going to destroy Martinez :rolleyes:
It was amazing he that he came through such a battle with the win, surprised us all right...
Re: should mayweather continue to be ranked in the top P4P in 2011?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
On to this main question, I think it's an interesting but pointless discussion.
Reading people's reasons for dumping Floyd are quite enlightening to me though the reasons I shall now outline.
As Titofan is the most hostile to Floyd keeping his ranking I shall direct my post at him.
First off, you say that Floyd should be taken off to reward other fighters. This is strange. Are you suggesting that you agree Floyd is better, but to show respect for the efforts of more active fighters you want to pretend he's not around and leave him out? That seems a bit corrupt to me. If you think Floyd is one of the ten best fighters on the planet right now, surely he has to be there? He hasn't stated his retirement, and I think universally we all feel he is in the top 10 best living fighters right now, so should be ranked.
You also state that if we are going to keep Floyd in the p4p despite his inactivty then why not bring back all the other inactive fighters who could still be p4p.
I challenge you to name a single fighter who hasn't officially retired who could conceivably be rated in the top 10 who isn't there right now due to inactivty?
There isn't one, and this is the whole point.
If you take Floyd out the rankings, before he officially retires, he becomes the elephant in the room. We all know he's above the rest of those in there, arguably Manny aside and so ommiting him makes the p4p rankins wrong in an absolute sense.
I'm actually broadly in favour with Rafael's idea. If he hasn't announed anything by May 1st then, and only then can he consider being ommited, as a year's inactivty is considerable.
But let's give him another month, and if after he does announce a fight, I'd put him back in again as he clearly is a top 2 fighter by universal agreement.
I got no qualms with Floyd's skill level. Can't think of ANY boxing fan who would deny that Floyd has enviable boxing skills. But it's not just his inactivity that turns me off regarding p4p. It's his perceived "cherry-picking". I say "perceived" in an honest attempt to be objective here. Yeah.... I'm pretty vocal against Floyd.... but I'm trying to put on the "objective cap" here. ;D
Whether Floyd ducks fighters or not, obviously is a matter of opinion. But the fact that it's even an issue, speaks for itself. No one accuses Pacquaio of ducking fighters. No one accuses Cotto of ducking fighters. No one accuses Martinez, JMM, Isra or Rafa of ducking fighters. But with Floyd, it's an issue.
And WHY would Floyd duck opponents? I don't know.... but he DOES seem a lot more concerned about his p4p status, and his "0" in the "Loss" column, than a lot of other fighters. It's that attitude that sets him apart from the others I've mentioned. Again, should THIS be grounds for not considering him for p4p? Like so many others have said, it's a matter of opinion. I respect others' and expect others to respect mine.
Finally, there's the inactivity itself. Maybe you're right.... there's probably no other "semi-retired" fighter out there today that would merit even consideration for p4p.... fair enough. But the clock continues to tick. And other fighters continue to win fights, give the fans what they want, and climb the p4p (albeit mythical) standings. How long are we going to allow Floyd to hang on to past glories? Someone said by this May. Kind of arbitrary, don't you think? Why not June? Why not grant him p4p for 2011 and give him until January 2012 before we disqualify him?
And what have been Floyd's latest opponents in the past three years? A woefully undersized (and carefully picked) JMM? A suddenly over-the-hill Mosley? When has Floyd, in the past few years, fought a truly dangerous fighter?
I gotta admit.... I just don't like the guy. Funny... 'cause I was totally rooting for him when he fought Judah some years back... and also when he fought Hatton. But he's totally changed since those days.
Just my opinion, of course.
