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The corner were all over the place. You don't need 4 voices in your ear between rounds when you are getting pummelled as you are probably hearing about 20 already. Berto's head must have been all over the place. And then he had to go back out there and have Ortiz move his head all over the place some more. It's a shame Berto has no head movement of his own to avoid all that.
I remember Devon Alexander's corner vs Bradley was pretty much the same. To much emotion and no where near enough advice. I remember thinking after the fight that they only cater to Devon's apparent immaturity as a fighter.
The whole idea about "how to fight a southpaw"- that being your left foot outside his right foot, throw the hook and straight right has been invented by people that don't and have never fought. When you are boxing, the idea is to get the inside punching position. By doing the above you surrender it. You put your lead hand- about 80% of your offense- outside his shoulder, where it can't land. You beat a southpaw by going to his left hand, making him throw it, then countering with left hooks or right uppercuts.
With Ortiz, you want him to establish that position- his right foot outside your left foot- because his left hand is weak, and because, and Berto hit him with this, once you go to his left he will flat turn around and follow you. He walks into the right hand. He got nailed doing this and went down, in the 6th, and Berto narrowly missed the same punch at least three more times. He was that close to winning.
They should have been telling Berto to slide right (not bail out like he often did) and hook of Ortiz's left, or make him turn and fire his right. Ortiz fought hard and clearly won, but he was never more than a punch away from it going the other way.
I didn't say you couldn't fight from there, I said the corner had no answers for the classic southpaw style. If you saw the fight you can't deny that was Ortiz's game plan and it worked. I agree there are counters to this strategy and the two mentioned can work but if you don't work on moving and pivoting right or you like to lead with your jab, problems arise. I see these issues every day as I work with a southpaw and he faces orthodox fighters that use this strategy in reverse. It can be frustrating to face as sometimes it limits your output.
Deja Vu :-\
Good points though.
It's funny... Berto was doing more with his left hand (can't remember what exactly?) in round 6 and 7 and in fact he was stopping Ortiz using his right and so he was able to drive Ortiz backwards which made Ortiz fight negatively all of a sudden. Apparently Ortiz is only any good while coming forward.
After that though, Berto's tactics went to pot and just seemed content on driving into Ortiz I guess to hold ring center instead of utilizing the arsenal that was making that particular dynamic happen.
When ever Ortiz beat him to the 'drive' Berto (as Spicoli had mentioned) either reported to setting traps (or waited for Ortiz to 'over reach with left' as GNSO would put it) or just went back to the ropes like a complete looser!
Wired fight really :-\ Fucking exciting though! ;D
Did you miss Tyson's corner when he fought Douglas? They didn't even have ice to stop the swelling, they just had a fucking water balloon.
I have yet to watch the fight(Ortiz-Berto), but I've heard it was exciting, and I was not surprised by the result at all.
See I don't think that's technical or useful advice anymore than "let your hands go" is. Especially when you have a fighter with cement shoes like Berto has.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
Well.. What I heard was his corner, was pleading with him to box. When he boxed and kept Ortiz at a distance with his jab, he did well and was able to sit down when he threw his right.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou really think we're not getting the good rounds, just the bad? Really? I grant your point about seeing only fragments, but I see no reason to believe they aren't representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Look... it's like this. Berto obviously did not have all of his senses in tack during the fight. Most probably due to fact he was getting hit in the head repeatedly very hard starting from the first round.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiSee I don't think that's technical or useful advice anymore than "let your hands go" is. Especially when you have a fighter with cement shoes like Berto has.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyWell.. What I heard was his corner, was pleading with him to box. When he boxed and kept Ortiz at a distance with his jab, he did well and was able to sit down when he threw his right.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou really think we're not getting the good rounds, just the bad? Really? I grant your point about seeing only fragments, but I see no reason to believe they aren't representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
I'm not saying his corner wasn't shit as far as corners go. I'm just saying people are making judgments about his corner without "totally" knowing what was going on. You say you what heard was pretty useless. I'm saying, what I saw and I heard wasn't at all like people put it in this thread. I heard his corner specifically telling him to box. i.e. stay on the outside and use your jab. His corner may or may not have communicated that concept to Berto effectively in the context of his fight plan. I have no way of knowing that because I wasn't there and I'm not Berto. I can only assume they had a plan and trained for the fight following a specific plan with possibly some alternatives. What I saw was, when Berto did box, he was keeping Ortiz on the outside and he was very effective. When Berto allowed Ortiz on the inside he was getting his ass kicked most of the time. It's was not a complected fight to follow because neither fighter made very many adjustments. Berto just didn't seem to be able follow instructions. I can't tell you if it was or wasn't the corners fault.
I also found it amazing that they allowed him to keeping spouting off inbetween rounds. I'd bet that something was said after that fight for sure, he was annoying the hell out of me, so must have annoyed Bertos trainer for sure.
If I remember rightly, Eddie Chambers had a similar corner when he fought which ever Klit it was. Shouting and balling at him, all of them, terrible.
His corner could not have possibly been effective between rounds- they were obviously ineffective in their preparation for the fight, so why would things change? How could Berto move and stay away when his feet were consistently 3 feet apart? Nobody ever told him- in the gym, so why bother when the habit is ingrained?- that that ensures that a guy looking to rush you will 100% certainly get on top of you while you try to get your feet to where movement is possible. Why tell him to use his jab? The other guy is a right handed fighter- his whole game is based off the work he does with his right hand- and Berto insists on dropping his jab ever time he throws it. (Another thing that should have been addressed before a guy is a "world champ")
He wasn't mentally, physically, or strategically prepared for the fight. So how can the same guys that did nothing beforehand be expected to suddenly become gurus in the corner?
Berto should get with Roach, he'd be an awesome black pacman!
Nice post.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyLook... it's like this. Berto obviously did not have all of his senses in tack during the fight. Most probably due to fact he was getting hit in the head repeatedly very hard starting from the first round.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiSee I don't think that's technical or useful advice anymore than "let your hands go" is. Especially when you have a fighter with cement shoes like Berto has.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyWell.. What I heard was his corner, was pleading with him to box. When he boxed and kept Ortiz at a distance with his jab, he did well and was able to sit down when he threw his right.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou really think we're not getting the good rounds, just the bad? Really? I grant your point about seeing only fragments, but I see no reason to believe they aren't representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
I'm not saying his corner wasn't shit as far as corners go. I'm just saying people are making judgments about his corner without "totally" knowing what was going on. You say you what heard was pretty useless. I'm saying, what I saw and I heard wasn't at all like people put it in this thread. I heard his corner specifically telling him to box. i.e. stay on the outside and use your jab. His corner may or may not have communicated that concept to Berto effectively in the context of his fight plan. I have no way of knowing that because I wasn't there and I'm not Berto. I can only assume they had a plan and trained for the fight following a specific plan with possibly some alternatives. What I saw was, when Berto did box, he was keeping Ortiz on the outside and he was very effective. When Berto allowed Ortiz on the inside he was getting his ass kicked most of the time. It's was not a complected fight to follow because neither fighter made very many adjustments. Berto just didn't seem to be able follow instructions. I can't tell you if it was or wasn't the corners fault.
I would say that most of the relies are on the money and Berto's trainers haven't taught him a thing because even though he fought back and fought back hard, he had no idea how to follow through and between rounds the corner was so uninspiring.
bullshit !Quote:
Originally Posted by el kabong
Did anybody here overhear his corner tell him to quit moving to his right? "Go out their and box." You have got to be kidding me.
Berto let a guy that never even fought at 147 own him. Not much you can tell a guy who fights flat footed. Why this wasn't corrected in the gym over the year of inactivity is beyond me. He lost before the fight started expecting to do any damage at a stacked WW division fighting flat footed. ridiculous how hyped he was.