Hopkins p4p ranking?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Where was Pascal rated P4P before this fight? He certainly wasn't top 10.
Where did Froch get rated P4P after beating Pascal?

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I agree with Fenster yet again in recent times. Strange to think that. :o

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Originally Posted by Fenster

The fact Hopkin's didn't beat Pascal first time makes his case WORSE! P4P is about what is currently happening. Hopkins, who was not rated P4P before his last fight, loses it against a guy that was also not rated P4P. Yet Hopkins now qualifies as P4P by beating the very same fighter, who has never been ranked P4P.

You're all rating Hopkins on his history. You're giving him bonus points for being a pensioner. He is a surefire all-time-great. It doesn't mean he is currently among the worlds 10 best fighters let alone top 3.

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I agree. Hopkins beat Pascal once and lost to Pascal once. Pascal wasn't ranked in the top twenty p4p fighters. Martinez beat Williams once and lost to Williams once. Williams was ranked in the 5 or 10 p4p fighters.

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Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

Pac
Martinez
Donaire
Hopkins
JMM

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I agree with this list for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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That said, this win in no way puts him at 2 or 3. It's supposed to be a take on who is the best fighter on the planet regardless of weight. Age & lineal titles play little role, in fact even inactivity shouldn't, as it's originally not supposed to be the 'what have you done lately' popularity contest it's become. It seems to have become some kind of bizarre division of its own.

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I think top 3 is fair. The criticisms you are levelling at Hopkins could just as easily be aimed at Martinez.

B Hops resume over last few years show huge upset wins over Taver, Pavlik and Pascal, plus wins over Winky Wright and Roy Jones, along with a draw to Pascal in which most thought he won, and a very close defeat to Calzaghe, again a fight many thought he won.

Contrast that with Martinez who won and lost to Paul Williams, beat Pavlik, drew with Kermit Cintron in a fight we all thought he should have won, and beat some decent little known light middle last time .out.

I would say even discarding the age factor Hopkins resume is better than Martinez. He beat Pavlik and.ruined him, beat two linear champs at 175 and in Calzaghe lost to a better fighter than Martinez has ever faced.

He's above Sergio for me on merit nothing to do with sentimentality over his age...

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But, Hopkins lost to Pascal, an unranked p4p fighter in his fight before this one. And Pascal isn't that huge of a win. Pascal was unranked p4p. It's hard to remain top p4p with a loss in your second to last fight....unless, the loss is to another top p4p fighter.

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Hopkins did not lose to Pascal, it was a draw where most thought he had won, much the same as Martinez draw with Cintron.

@Jazmerkin Your opinion that Hopkins would lose to Martinez is just that, an opinon, just as Pavliks ideal weight being 160 is an opinion also. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Pavlik fighting at supermiddleweight now? And did he not weigh in at 170 a couple weeks ago, same as against B Hop? You can just as easily argue 170 is his iseal weight, certainly Pavlik himself now seems to think so..

Anyway back to acomplishments, Hopkins has simply beaten better fighters.

Tarver,
Pavlik
Pascal,
Winky,
Jones Jr

compared to

Williams
Pavlik
Dzinzurik

Martinez also drew with Cintron and lost to Wiliams, Hopkins drew with Pascal and lost to Calzaghe.

His opposition is better across the board.

@Fenster, Pascal wasnt in many p4p lists, but Dawson certainly was and Pascal was coming off a win over him was he not?

How many of Martinez opponents have been p4p? Williams...and?

Hopkins beat Pavlik when he was p4p, Calzaghe was number 3 p4p and some of you think he won that fight.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Where was Pascal rated P4P before this fight? He certainly wasn't top 10.
Where did Froch get rated P4P after beating Pascal?

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I agree with Fenster yet again in recent times. Strange to think that. :o

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Originally Posted by Fenster

The fact Hopkin's didn't beat Pascal first time makes his case WORSE! P4P is about what is currently happening. Hopkins, who was not rated P4P before his last fight, loses it against a guy that was also not rated P4P. Yet Hopkins now qualifies as P4P by beating the very same fighter, who has never been ranked P4P.

You're all rating Hopkins on his history. You're giving him bonus points for being a pensioner. He is a surefire all-time-great. It doesn't mean he is currently among the worlds 10 best fighters let alone top 3.

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I agree. Hopkins beat Pascal once and lost to Pascal once. Pascal wasn't ranked in the top twenty p4p fighters. Martinez beat Williams once and lost to Williams once. Williams was ranked in the 5 or 10 p4p fighters.

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Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

Pac
Martinez
Donaire
Hopkins
JMM

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I agree with this list for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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That said, this win in no way puts him at 2 or 3. It's supposed to be a take on who is the best fighter on the planet regardless of weight. Age & lineal titles play little role, in fact even inactivity shouldn't, as it's originally not supposed to be the 'what have you done lately' popularity contest it's become. It seems to have become some kind of bizarre division of its own.

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I think top 3 is fair. The criticisms you are levelling at Hopkins could just as easily be aimed at Martinez.

B Hops resume over last few years show huge upset wins over Taver, Pavlik and Pascal, plus wins over Winky Wright and Roy Jones, along with a draw to Pascal in which most thought he won, and a very close defeat to Calzaghe, again a fight many thought he won.

Contrast that with Martinez who won and lost to Paul Williams, beat Pavlik, drew with Kermit Cintron in a fight we all thought he should have won, and beat some decent little known light middle last time .out.

I would say even discarding the age factor Hopkins resume is better than Martinez. He beat Pavlik and.ruined him, beat two linear champs at 175 and in Calzaghe lost to a better fighter than Martinez has ever faced.

He's above Sergio for me on merit nothing to do with sentimentality over his age...

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But, Hopkins lost to Pascal, an unranked p4p fighter in his fight before this one. And Pascal isn't that huge of a win. Pascal was unranked p4p. It's hard to remain top p4p with a loss in your second to last fight....unless, the loss is to another top p4p fighter.

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Hopkins did not lose to Pascal, it was a draw where most thought he had won, much the same as Martinez draw with Cintron.

@Jazmerkin Your opinion that Hopkins would lose to Martinez is just that, an opinon, just as Pavliks ideal weight being 160 is an opinion also. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Pavlik fighting at supermiddleweight now? And did he not weigh in at 170 a couple weeks ago, same as against B Hop? You can just as easily argue 170 is his iseal weight, certainly Pavlik himself now seems to think so..

Anyway back to acomplishments, Hopkins has simply beaten better fighters.

Tarver,
Pavlik
Pascal,
Winky,
Jones Jr

compared to

Williams
Pavlik
Dzinzurik

Martinez also drew with Cintron and lost to Wiliams, Hopkins drew with Pascal and lost to Calzaghe.

His opposition is better across the board.

@Fenster, Pascal wasnt in many p4p lists, but Dawson certainly was and Pascal was coming off a win over him was he not?

How many of Martinez opponents have been p4p? Williams...and?

Hopkins beat Pavlik when he was p4p, Calzaghe was number 3 p4p and some of you think he won that fight.

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Over his career yes, if you read what I said, he has a better resume. Recently, as in the last 2 years, Williams, Pavlik & Dzinziruk >>>> Ornelas, Jones Jr & Pascal.

You also seem to not realize that all p4p is based on is opinion. There are no empirical facts that determine the rankings ;)

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Where was Pascal rated P4P before this fight? He certainly wasn't top 10.
Where did Froch get rated P4P after beating Pascal?

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I agree with Fenster yet again in recent times. Strange to think that. :o

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Originally Posted by Fenster

The fact Hopkin's didn't beat Pascal first time makes his case WORSE! P4P is about what is currently happening. Hopkins, who was not rated P4P before his last fight, loses it against a guy that was also not rated P4P. Yet Hopkins now qualifies as P4P by beating the very same fighter, who has never been ranked P4P.

You're all rating Hopkins on his history. You're giving him bonus points for being a pensioner. He is a surefire all-time-great. It doesn't mean he is currently among the worlds 10 best fighters let alone top 3.

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I agree. Hopkins beat Pascal once and lost to Pascal once. Pascal wasn't ranked in the top twenty p4p fighters. Martinez beat Williams once and lost to Williams once. Williams was ranked in the 5 or 10 p4p fighters.

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Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

Pac
Martinez
Donaire
Hopkins
JMM

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I agree with this list for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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That said, this win in no way puts him at 2 or 3. It's supposed to be a take on who is the best fighter on the planet regardless of weight. Age & lineal titles play little role, in fact even inactivity shouldn't, as it's originally not supposed to be the 'what have you done lately' popularity contest it's become. It seems to have become some kind of bizarre division of its own.

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I think top 3 is fair. The criticisms you are levelling at Hopkins could just as easily be aimed at Martinez.

B Hops resume over last few years show huge upset wins over Taver, Pavlik and Pascal, plus wins over Winky Wright and Roy Jones, along with a draw to Pascal in which most thought he won, and a very close defeat to Calzaghe, again a fight many thought he won.

Contrast that with Martinez who won and lost to Paul Williams, beat Pavlik, drew with Kermit Cintron in a fight we all thought he should have won, and beat some decent little known light middle last time .out.

I would say even discarding the age factor Hopkins resume is better than Martinez. He beat Pavlik and.ruined him, beat two linear champs at 175 and in Calzaghe lost to a better fighter than Martinez has ever faced.

He's above Sergio for me on merit nothing to do with sentimentality over his age...

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But, Hopkins lost to Pascal, an unranked p4p fighter in his fight before this one. And Pascal isn't that huge of a win. Pascal was unranked p4p. It's hard to remain top p4p with a loss in your second to last fight....unless, the loss is to another top p4p fighter.

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Hopkins did not lose to Pascal, it was a draw where most thought he had won, much the same as Martinez draw with Cintron.

@Jazmerkin Your opinion that Hopkins would lose to Martinez is just that, an opinon, just as Pavliks ideal weight being 160 is an opinion also. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Pavlik fighting at supermiddleweight now? And did he not weigh in at 170 a couple weeks ago, same as against B Hop? You can just as easily argue 170 is his iseal weight, certainly Pavlik himself now seems to think so..

Anyway back to acomplishments, Hopkins has simply beaten better fighters.

Tarver,
Pavlik
Pascal,
Winky,
Jones Jr

compared to

Williams
Pavlik
Dzinzurik

Martinez also drew with Cintron and lost to Wiliams, Hopkins drew with Pascal and lost to Calzaghe.

His opposition is better across the board.

@Fenster, Pascal wasnt in many p4p lists, but Dawson certainly was and Pascal was coming off a win over him was he not?

How many of Martinez opponents have been p4p? Williams...and?

Hopkins beat Pavlik when he was p4p, Calzaghe was number 3 p4p and some of you think he won that fight.

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Bilbo just to further your point, Winky Wright was also ranked 9th P4P when B-Hop beat him.

[/QUOTE] Over his career yes, if you read what I said, he has a better resume. Recently, as in the last 2 years, Williams, Pavlik & Dzinziruk >>>> Ornelas, Jones Jr & Pascal.

You also seem to not realize that all p4p is based on is opinion. There are no empirical facts that determine the rankings ;)[/QUOTE]

This is what I mean. But, we've talked about this in other threads and I value the win over Dzinziruk higher than you do because I ranked him as the top, or top 2 or 3 junior middleweights. I also probably rate the Pascal win lower than you do.

And sorry about saying he lost to Pascal, I blanked on that one. Not that a draw with an unranked p4p fighter is much better.

His win over Winkie was at 170. His win over Pavlik was at 170. I discount those wins a lot. You seemingly don't. Pavlik looked a lot better at 160 than he has above 160. A lot.

In sum, I guess I value Martinez's win over Williams higher than you do, and you value Hopkins' win over Pavlik higher than I do. We can agree to disagree. I will say one thing, if Hopkins faces Bad Chad, which he is contractually obligated to do, and beats Bad Chad, he will take over Martinez's spot certainly.

And how about Donaire? You haven't mentioned him much.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Where was Pascal rated P4P before this fight? He certainly wasn't top 10.
Where did Froch get rated P4P after beating Pascal?

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I agree with Fenster yet again in recent times. Strange to think that. :o

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Originally Posted by Fenster

The fact Hopkin's didn't beat Pascal first time makes his case WORSE! P4P is about what is currently happening. Hopkins, who was not rated P4P before his last fight, loses it against a guy that was also not rated P4P. Yet Hopkins now qualifies as P4P by beating the very same fighter, who has never been ranked P4P.

You're all rating Hopkins on his history. You're giving him bonus points for being a pensioner. He is a surefire all-time-great. It doesn't mean he is currently among the worlds 10 best fighters let alone top 3.

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I agree. Hopkins beat Pascal once and lost to Pascal once. Pascal wasn't ranked in the top twenty p4p fighters. Martinez beat Williams once and lost to Williams once. Williams was ranked in the 5 or 10 p4p fighters.

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Originally Posted by hardcore_crash

Pac
Martinez
Donaire
Hopkins
JMM

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I agree with this list for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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That said, this win in no way puts him at 2 or 3. It's supposed to be a take on who is the best fighter on the planet regardless of weight. Age & lineal titles play little role, in fact even inactivity shouldn't, as it's originally not supposed to be the 'what have you done lately' popularity contest it's become. It seems to have become some kind of bizarre division of its own.

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I think top 3 is fair. The criticisms you are levelling at Hopkins could just as easily be aimed at Martinez.

B Hops resume over last few years show huge upset wins over Taver, Pavlik and Pascal, plus wins over Winky Wright and Roy Jones, along with a draw to Pascal in which most thought he won, and a very close defeat to Calzaghe, again a fight many thought he won.

Contrast that with Martinez who won and lost to Paul Williams, beat Pavlik, drew with Kermit Cintron in a fight we all thought he should have won, and beat some decent little known light middle last time .out.

I would say even discarding the age factor Hopkins resume is better than Martinez. He beat Pavlik and.ruined him, beat two linear champs at 175 and in Calzaghe lost to a better fighter than Martinez has ever faced.

He's above Sergio for me on merit nothing to do with sentimentality over his age...

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But, Hopkins lost to Pascal, an unranked p4p fighter in his fight before this one. And Pascal isn't that huge of a win. Pascal was unranked p4p. It's hard to remain top p4p with a loss in your second to last fight....unless, the loss is to another top p4p fighter.

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Hopkins did not lose to Pascal, it was a draw where most thought he had won, much the same as Martinez draw with Cintron.

@Jazmerkin Your opinion that Hopkins would lose to Martinez is just that, an opinon, just as Pavliks ideal weight being 160 is an opinion also. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Pavlik fighting at supermiddleweight now? And did he not weigh in at 170 a couple weeks ago, same as against B Hop? You can just as easily argue 170 is his iseal weight, certainly Pavlik himself now seems to think so..

Anyway back to acomplishments, Hopkins has simply beaten better fighters.

Tarver,
Pavlik
Pascal,
Winky,
Jones Jr

compared to

Williams
Pavlik
Dzinzurik

Martinez also drew with Cintron and lost to Wiliams, Hopkins drew with Pascal and lost to Calzaghe.

His opposition is better across the board.

@Fenster, Pascal wasnt in many p4p lists, but Dawson certainly was and Pascal was coming off a win over him was he not?

How many of Martinez opponents have been p4p? Williams...and?

Hopkins beat Pavlik when he was p4p, Calzaghe was number 3 p4p and some of you think he won that fight.

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Over his career yes, if you read what I said, he has a better resume. Recently, as in the last 2 years, Williams, Pavlik & Dzinziruk >>>> Ornelas, Jones Jr & Pascal.

You also seem to not realize that all p4p is based on is opinion. There are no empirical facts that determine the rankings ;)

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Yup. Unless we agree on a criteria? This discussion is even more pointless than the rest of the ones we share.

And THAT is REALLY saying something ;)

Bilbo - Was Pascal P4P when he DREW with the old boy? No. Was the old boy P4P? No. Were either P4P Saturday? No.

The Pavlik and Calzaghe fights were three years ago. Since then Hopkins has fought three guys NOT rated P4P - Ornales, virtually dead Roy and Carl Froch victim Pascal.

P4P is about current events. Just because you've got a free bus pass, it doesn't mean you can beat a decent fighter and dive into the top 3.

Jermain Taylor entered the top 10 P4P with his win over Hopkins. He was kicked out BEFORE he ever lost a fight.

P4P is nonsense. You're all currently favouring BHOP just because he's BHOP. Fact.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Bilbo - Was Pascal P4P when he DREW with the old boy? No. Was the old boy P4P? No. Were either P4P Saturday? No.

The Pavlik and Calzaghe fights were three years ago. Since then Hopkins has fought three guys NOT rated P4P - Ornales, virtually dead Roy and Carl Froch victim Pascal.

P4P is about current events. Just because you've got a free bus pass, it doesn't mean you can beat a decent fighter and dive into the top 3.

Jermain Taylor entered the top 10 P4P with his win over Hopkins. He was kicked out BEFORE he ever lost a fight.

P4P is nonsense. You're all currently favouring BHOP just because he's BHOP. Fact.

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Explain to how Martinez has done more?

Was Bunema p4p? Nope. Was Cintron p4p? Nope Was Williams p4p? Yep, and he beat Martinez first time around. Was Dzinurik p4p? nope Was Pavlik p4p? Again nope.

Was Pascal more highly regarded at the time of the first Hopkins fight than Cintron, Pavlik, Dzinziruk and Bunema were when Martinex fought them? Being the recognised 175 champ with three straight wins over Diaconu and Dawson (a p4p fighter) then yes absolutely he was better than all of the above other than Williams, who to be fair he's probably equal to unless you regard beating Margarito and Winky and going 1-1 with Carlos Quintana as more of an acjievement than beating Diaconu twice, Dawson and losing a close 12 rounder to Carl Froch..

Martinez is 3-1-1 in his last 5 fights and if you going take away credit from Hopkins for fighting Pavlik and Winky at 170 then you HAVE to take credit away from Martinez for fighting a light middle unranked at 160 for his middleweight title defence. Fair's fair after all.

Add to the fact that Hopkins is a proven legend with 20 years worth of acomplishments and a first ballot Hall of Famer then he should be rated above a 35 year old guy who most people have only heqrd of in the last couple years and who is currently the middleweight champ only because there was a complete void of talent in the division that encouraged him to move up. Williams and Pavlik were good wins, but no better than Tarver, Pavlik and Pascal.

Hopkins should be number 2 behind Manny imo.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Bilbo - Was Pascal P4P when he DREW with the old boy? No. Was the old boy P4P? No. Were either P4P Saturday? No.

The Pavlik and Calzaghe fights were three years ago. Since then Hopkins has fought three guys NOT rated P4P - Ornales, virtually dead Roy and Carl Froch victim Pascal.

P4P is about current events. Just because you've got a free bus pass, it doesn't mean you can beat a decent fighter and dive into the top 3.

Jermain Taylor entered the top 10 P4P with his win over Hopkins. He was kicked out BEFORE he ever lost a fight.

P4P is nonsense. You're all currently favouring BHOP just because he's BHOP. Fact.

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If its about current events why is Pascal a Carl Froch victim and not a Chad Dawson conquerer?

Martinez is better because he beat a Hopkins victim, a Quintana victim and drew with a Margarito victim? Is this your argument?:-\

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Bilbo - Was Pascal P4P when he DREW with the old boy? No. Was the old boy P4P? No. Were either P4P Saturday? No.

The Pavlik and Calzaghe fights were three years ago. Since then Hopkins has fought three guys NOT rated P4P - Ornales, virtually dead Roy and Carl Froch victim Pascal.

P4P is about current events. Just because you've got a free bus pass, it doesn't mean you can beat a decent fighter and dive into the top 3.

Jermain Taylor entered the top 10 P4P with his win over Hopkins. He was kicked out BEFORE he ever lost a fight.

P4P is nonsense. You're all currently favouring BHOP just because he's BHOP. Fact.

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If its about current events why is Pascal a Carl Froch victim and not a Chad Dawson conquerer?

Martinez is better because he beat a Hopkins victim, a Quintana victim and drew with a Margarito victim? Is this your argument?:-\

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Well I haven't even been arguing a case for Martinez but he is EASILY above Hopkins.

This is how the performances compare over their last 5 fights.

Martinez
Kermit Cintron - top ranked KO artist. Martinez wins KO 7.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez loses a MD (robbery).
Kelly Pavlik - Lineal 160 champ. Martinez wins by landslide UD.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez wins KO 2.
Sergiy Dzinziruk - unbeaten longtime WBO champ. Martinez wins KO 8.

Hopkins
Kelly Pavlik - 10lbs above prime weight. Hopkins wins UD.
Enrique Ornelas - Borderline journeyman. Hopkins wins UD.
Roy Jones Jr - Corpse. Hopkins wins UD.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins gets dropped twice. Draw.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins wins UD.

Martinez has not only faced by far the stronger opposition he is WINNING in a far more impressive fashion. Hopkins can't even stop dead men, journeymen and guys he's dragged WAY above their optimum weight. Martinez is DESTROYING P4P rated guys, unbeaten guys and deadly punchers.

Hopkins over Martinez? Laughable. Fact.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Bilbo - Was Pascal P4P when he DREW with the old boy? No. Was the old boy P4P? No. Were either P4P Saturday? No.

The Pavlik and Calzaghe fights were three years ago. Since then Hopkins has fought three guys NOT rated P4P - Ornales, virtually dead Roy and Carl Froch victim Pascal.

P4P is about current events. Just because you've got a free bus pass, it doesn't mean you can beat a decent fighter and dive into the top 3.

Jermain Taylor entered the top 10 P4P with his win over Hopkins. He was kicked out BEFORE he ever lost a fight.

P4P is nonsense. You're all currently favouring BHOP just because he's BHOP. Fact.

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If its about current events why is Pascal a Carl Froch victim and not a Chad Dawson conquerer?

Martinez is better because he beat a Hopkins victim, a Quintana victim and drew with a Margarito victim? Is this your argument?:-\

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Well I haven't even been arguing a case for Martinez but he is EASILY above Hopkins.

This is how the performances compare over their last 5 fights.

Martinez
Kermit Cintron - top ranked KO artist. Martinez wins KO 7.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez loses a MD (robbery).
Kelly Pavlik - Lineal 160 champ. Martinez wins by landslide UD.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez wins KO 2.
Sergiy Dzinziruk - unbeaten longtime WBO champ. Martinez wins KO 8.

Hopkins
Kelly Pavlik - 10lbs above prime weight. Hopkins wins UD.
Enrique Ornelas - Borderline journeyman. Hopkins wins UD.
Roy Jones Jr - Corpse. Hopkins wins UD.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins gets dropped twice. Draw.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins wins UD.

Martinez has not only faced by far the stronger opposition he is WINNING in a far more impressive fashion. Hopkins can't even stop dead men, journeymen and guys he's dragged WAY above their optimum weight. Martinez is DESTROYING P4P rated guys, unbeaten guys and deadly punchers.

Hopkins over Martinez? Laughable. Fact.

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:goodpost:

I also think boxers become fashionable and that boosts them up the mythical p4p rankings.

Bhop is now back in fashion, Donaire is the latest.

Good fighters no denying it, but they often get the tinted glasses treatment and other fighters get wiped off the radar just for not being as well liked.

Give it a few months, Hop will have a stinker against a random and he will drop out of being flavour of the quarter.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Bilbo - Was Pascal P4P when he DREW with the old boy? No. Was the old boy P4P? No. Were either P4P Saturday? No.

The Pavlik and Calzaghe fights were three years ago. Since then Hopkins has fought three guys NOT rated P4P - Ornales, virtually dead Roy and Carl Froch victim Pascal.

P4P is about current events. Just because you've got a free bus pass, it doesn't mean you can beat a decent fighter and dive into the top 3.

Jermain Taylor entered the top 10 P4P with his win over Hopkins. He was kicked out BEFORE he ever lost a fight.

P4P is nonsense. You're all currently favouring BHOP just because he's BHOP. Fact.

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If its about current events why is Pascal a Carl Froch victim and not a Chad Dawson conquerer?

Martinez is better because he beat a Hopkins victim, a Quintana victim and drew with a Margarito victim? Is this your argument?:-\

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Well I haven't even been arguing a case for Martinez but he is EASILY above Hopkins.

This is how the performances compare over their last 5 fights.

Martinez
Kermit Cintron - top ranked KO artist. Martinez wins KO 7.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez loses a MD (robbery).
Kelly Pavlik - Lineal 160 champ. Martinez wins by landslide UD.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez wins KO 2.
Sergiy Dzinziruk - unbeaten longtime WBO champ. Martinez wins KO 8.

Hopkins
Kelly Pavlik - 10lbs above prime weight. Hopkins wins UD.
Enrique Ornelas - Borderline journeyman. Hopkins wins UD.
Roy Jones Jr - Corpse. Hopkins wins UD.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins gets dropped twice. Draw.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins wins UD.

Martinez has not only faced by far the stronger opposition he is WINNING in a far more impressive fashion. Hopkins can't even stop dead men, journeymen and guys he's dragged WAY above their optimum weight. Martinez is DESTROYING P4P rated guys, unbeaten guys and deadly punchers.

Hopkins over Martinez? Laughable. Fact.

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I remember them mentioning in Dzinziruk fight, that he had never been knocked down before.

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Originally Posted by killersheep

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Bilbo - Was Pascal P4P when he DREW with the old boy? No. Was the old boy P4P? No. Were either P4P Saturday? No.

The Pavlik and Calzaghe fights were three years ago. Since then Hopkins has fought three guys NOT rated P4P - Ornales, virtually dead Roy and Carl Froch victim Pascal.

P4P is about current events. Just because you've got a free bus pass, it doesn't mean you can beat a decent fighter and dive into the top 3.

Jermain Taylor entered the top 10 P4P with his win over Hopkins. He was kicked out BEFORE he ever lost a fight.

P4P is nonsense. You're all currently favouring BHOP just because he's BHOP. Fact.

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If its about current events why is Pascal a Carl Froch victim and not a Chad Dawson conquerer?

Martinez is better because he beat a Hopkins victim, a Quintana victim and drew with a Margarito victim? Is this your argument?:-\

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Well I haven't even been arguing a case for Martinez but he is EASILY above Hopkins.

This is how the performances compare over their last 5 fights.

Martinez
Kermit Cintron - top ranked KO artist. Martinez wins KO 7.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez loses a MD (robbery).
Kelly Pavlik - Lineal 160 champ. Martinez wins by landslide UD.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez wins KO 2.
Sergiy Dzinziruk - unbeaten longtime WBO champ. Martinez wins KO 8.

Hopkins
Kelly Pavlik - 10lbs above prime weight. Hopkins wins UD.
Enrique Ornelas - Borderline journeyman. Hopkins wins UD.
Roy Jones Jr - Corpse. Hopkins wins UD.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins gets dropped twice. Draw.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins wins UD.

Martinez has not only faced by far the stronger opposition he is WINNING in a far more impressive fashion. Hopkins can't even stop dead men, journeymen and guys he's dragged WAY above their optimum weight. Martinez is DESTROYING P4P rated guys, unbeaten guys and deadly punchers.

Hopkins over Martinez? Laughable. Fact.

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I remember them mentioning in Dzinziruk fight, that he had never been knocked down before.

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Even more impressive then.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Bilbo - Was Pascal P4P when he DREW with the old boy? No. Was the old boy P4P? No. Were either P4P Saturday? No.

The Pavlik and Calzaghe fights were three years ago. Since then Hopkins has fought three guys NOT rated P4P - Ornales, virtually dead Roy and Carl Froch victim Pascal.

P4P is about current events. Just because you've got a free bus pass, it doesn't mean you can beat a decent fighter and dive into the top 3.

Jermain Taylor entered the top 10 P4P with his win over Hopkins. He was kicked out BEFORE he ever lost a fight.

P4P is nonsense. You're all currently favouring BHOP just because he's BHOP. Fact.

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If its about current events why is Pascal a Carl Froch victim and not a Chad Dawson conquerer?

Martinez is better because he beat a Hopkins victim, a Quintana victim and drew with a Margarito victim? Is this your argument?:-\

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Well I haven't even been arguing a case for Martinez but he is EASILY above Hopkins.

This is how the performances compare over their last 5 fights.

Martinez
Kermit Cintron - top ranked KO artist. Martinez wins KO 7.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez loses a MD (robbery).
Kelly Pavlik - Lineal 160 champ. Martinez wins by landslide UD.
Paul Williams - P4P rated. Martinez wins KO 2.
Sergiy Dzinziruk - unbeaten longtime WBO champ. Martinez wins KO 8.

Hopkins
Kelly Pavlik - 10lbs above prime weight. Hopkins wins UD.
Enrique Ornelas - Borderline journeyman. Hopkins wins UD.
Roy Jones Jr - Corpse. Hopkins wins UD.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins gets dropped twice. Draw.
Jean Pascal - Hopkins wins UD.

Martinez has not only faced by far the stronger opposition he is WINNING in a far more impressive fashion. Hopkins can't even stop dead men, journeymen and guys he's dragged WAY above their optimum weight. Martinez is DESTROYING P4P rated guys, unbeaten guys and deadly punchers.

Hopkins over Martinez? Laughable. Fact.

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Haha so now we're changing official results to back up our arguments eh. Boxrec tells me Cintron D12, sorry about that.

As for the first Williams fight being a robbery, again your just having to exaggerate to make a case. I can do that too, Hopkins Calzaghe loss = robbery, Pascal draw = robbery.

As for your other points. Pavlik 10lbs above prime weight? Really? Tell me what weighed in his last fight then? I think it was 170. Although I guess that only became his prime weight after Martine beat him and somehow after that he became a 10 lb heavier man. Thyroid problem perhaps...

As for dragging people up beyond their weight, how what was dziniruks rating as a middleweight? Oh I forget, he hadnt ever fought there, being a career light middle. This was different to when Hopkins drags guys up though because you have to right I guess.

So to summise. Martinez drew with a Margarito ko victim. He beat Pavlik coming off a lopsided loss to Hopkins. He knocked out Paul Williams (a Quintana victim) but also was beat in their first fight, and he defended his title against a completely unknown 154lb champ who for some reason is regarded as some kind of yardstick for p4p greatness.

Martinez has a grwat win over Williams to go with a defeat, and a decent win over an alcholic Pavlik who had been mentally destroyed by Hopkins.

Beating Tarver, Pavlik and Pascal is simply better than Williams, Pavlik and Dzinziruk imo.

I hope Martinex mans up and fights Hopkins at 170. That would be a great catchweight limit, an d then pops can show you how an all time legend performs against Martinez? hands down, I dont need to defend style...

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Originally Posted by 0james0

I also think boxers become fashionable and that boosts them up the mythical p4p rankings.

Bhop is now back in fashion, Donaire is the latest.

Good fighters no denying it, but they often get the tinted glasses treatment and other fighters get wiped off the radar just for not being as well liked.

Give it a few months, Hop will have a stinker against a random and he will drop out of being flavour of the quarter.

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How exactly is Hopkins a passing fad? He's been at the top for longer than anyone else currently in boxing.

Answer me this honestly. In 2008 where was Martinez in your p4p rankings? Had you even heard of Sergio Martinez then?

He is the very definition of a flavour of the month fighter.He's boxed impressively against decent but beatable opposition. Carlos Quintana beat Paul Williams, Hopkins had already beaten Pavlik and Margarito had twice wrecked Cintron.

He hasnt proven himself above the level of a Bernard Hopkins who has not been truly beat in a fight since 1993. JM Marquez lost every single round to Floyd Mayweather and remains in the p4p top 5, whilst Hop lost a narrow SD to Joe Calzaghe and gets dropped out. Ridiculous, as his recent performances have shown.