Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
I'm almost positive that Mayweather will walk right through Oritz. However, I am completely positive that Pacquiao is going to blow Marquez right out of the water.
JMM was the better fighter over the course of his career, obviously, but he's badly faded now. He won't see the 6th round this time.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
I'm almost positive that Mayweather will walk right through Oritz. However, I am completely positive that Pacquiao is going to blow Marquez right out of the water.
JMM was the better fighter over the course of his career, obviously, but he's badly faded now. He won't see the 6th round this time.
JMM has faded, but I really don't see how he doesn't make it a bit interesting just based on the fact that he intimately knows Pac's style. The way he has learned to fight Pac isn't just forgotten. Pac has gotten better over the last couple of years, but recall, after the first Marquez fight, many said that Pac would crush Marquez in the second fight because he had developed a right hook. And that's not what happened.
I really don't see how Ortiz competes with Mayweather. He's not bigger. He's not more skilled. He's not faster. He's not more experienced. He's not better or even with Mayweather in one single category other than his youth and I'm not sure that is an advantage because he's probably not in his prime.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Excellent question & topic!
Marquez is the better fighter but having to come up to Welter & his advancing age has me leaning towards Ortiz as the tougher opponent, plus add in Mayweather's inactivity
In saying that Marquez gave Pac hell twice & has proven his worth & is still one of the best counter punchers in the game & Ortiz is fighting Mayweather so it is always going to be an uphill battle for him...
Damn hard to say really when all the variables are weighed up... can I say 50/50?
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
I voted Ortiz. Pac has already faced Marquez and knows what is getting himself into.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BoxingGorilla
I voted Ortiz. Pac has already faced Marquez and knows what is getting himself into.
I'll eat crow if Ortiz presents Mayweather with any sort of problem and if Marquez doesn't cause any problems for Pacquiao.
Truthfully, I believe there is confusion between Ortiz being the best opponent at 147 for Mayweather other than Pacquiao and Ortiz actually being a tough fight for Mayweather. The two are not the same. Similarly, I believe there is confusion with the Marquez fight happening at 147, not 140 or 135, and, thus, Marquez won't be able to match up with Pacquiao effectively. People are angry that the fight is happening at all because they want Pacquiao to fight Mayweather with the tests and/or because they view Marquez as passed it and isn't suited to the weight class. Some of that sentiment is warranted, but it shouldn't be confused with the fact that Marquez will still be a tough outing for Pacquiao just look at the empirical evidence.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Teddy Atlas agrees with me although I'm not sure if that is good for my point.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
I get what your getting at now.
When i voted for Ortiz, it was based on his credentials compared to Marquez's at 147 which he clearly wins at the moment.
Based on style matchups though, Marquez is easily the tougher opponent for Pacquiao than Ortiz is for Mayweather.
What might affect Marquez is the weight. We still don't know how good he can be at 147.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
You still find Teddy Atlas reliable??? Where are those emails that he claimed existed? I don't give credibility to any word he says after that ...... and to think that I have the same sentiment as his with regards to the title question.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Marquez will be tougher. His age can be looked at in another way as experience. Like what I wrote in another thread, if we are not to include what a number of people consider as his controversial loses (to Pacquiao and Chris John), then he hasn't lost to anyone not named Mayweather since 1999. And all his wins by decision in the past 10 years hasn't even been close.
Ortiz' young age, on the other hand, can be considered as inexperience. That showed in his recklessness when he fought Berto whereby he was dropped a couple of times. The smart PBF will take advantage of this.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Marquez is by far the more skilled, and I would say mentally tougher of the two, while Ortiz is younger/fresher, bigger, and stronger than JMM. Styles make fights, and for me I would say that for Manny, JMM is tougher and for Floyd, Ortiz is tougher. JMM has a great chin, is a crafty counter puncher, and "gets up" for Manny, meaning he fights at his best against Manny (kinda like Barrera did against Morales, Bowe against Holyfield, Holy against Tyson...etc.). Floyd is a slightly larger, faster, and slicker version of JMM, and this made Floyd's fight with him a blowout. Floyd doesn't have Manny's punch or all out offense, so it will take him longer to get Ortiz out of there than it would for Manny, since Ortiz would get caught and overwhelmed against a whirlwind like Manny. So just to clear it up, Ortiz is the easier fight for Manny, and JMM is the easier fight for Floyd.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Occasionally I can avoid the circles. On this its simple and screw the weights
Marquez is Marquez and Ortiz is not. JMM knows tough campaigns and Ortiz strikes me as more spirited willing novice compared.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
littlebif
At this point in there careers i would say Ortiz, he has come off the biggest win of his life he's young and hungry plus his condidence is sky high.
Marquez has given Manny Pac fits before but that was awhile back and Marquez is'nt as affective at the higher weights.
He still has the style to trouble the pac man but he isnt as fast as what he was afew years ago and the extra weight will slow him down abit. Where Manny has kept his speed and increased his power moving up the weights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Marquez spent 100 years at featherweight. He lost to Floyd at welterweight then jumped straight back down to lightweight. I think it's pretty clear Marquez was never a welter.
Ortiz is naturally much bigger and younger than him. Even if less skilled he is clearly more dangerous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Based on history, style, and outright talent it's Marquez. JMM has been a thorn in Pac's side for a while. BUT that being said, Ortiz is fresher, he's a go for broke style fighter, he's apparently found his heart, and he's on the upswing.
I fully expect the favorites to prevail in these fights, but to me Ortiz could pull of the upset, I doubt JMM can at this point in time. But Vic does eat a TON of right crosses, so I wouldn't be surprised if he got KO'd
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I misunderstood the question.
Marquez has already beat Pac twice IMO. However, I believe this Pac, at this weight, is going to stop him.
Ortiz-Floyd is a complete unknown. If Floyd wins easy everyone will say it was expected. If FLoyd loses most "experts" will say he's clearly past his best.
So, on paper, Marquez is a far tougher opponent. If Marquez-Pac is close it will be nothing we haven't seen already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Marquez and it's not debatable.
Ortiz and it is not debatable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
P4P Marquez is a better fighter than Ortiz but how good is he at welterweight.
His only fight at welterweight against Floyd Mayweather, he looked terrible. Being that it was Floyd though, you could point to it being more of a bad matchup for him than the weight or a combination of both.
One thing was clear in that fight was Marquez didn't have power. Mayweather laughed at his punches and i think in his previous fights with Pacquiao that the reason he had so much success was because he was able to get Pacquiao to respect his punching power combined with the fact he had excellent timing, good footwork and he could land in combinations.
What we do know about Ortiz is that his speed, size, ability and most importantly his power have carried up to welterweight and as proof, he is coming off his best win against a top welterweight in Berto who he beat decisively.
Based on their credentials at welterweight, Ortiz is the tougher opponent but if Marquez is able to perform against Pacquiao like he did in their previous fights, he's the tougher opponent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Ortiz, the young southpaw, coming off a career-defining win over highly-touted Andre Berto or Marquez, the future HOF, one of the top Mexican fighters of all time, and who has given Pacquiao fits in the two times they faced eachother?
I expect "Surfer Vic" Ortiz to give Duckweather fits, but I don't expect Manny to have any problems with JMM, this isn't the same 2 pugs who fought before, Manny is much better now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jody Lane
Personally I think Ortiz because I think he is gonna take Mayweather out. I see history repeating itself again as in 1991 and 2003/4. In 1991 Sugar Ray Leonard came out of almost 2 years of inactivity and got scrambled by Terry Norris. In 2003/2004 Roy Jones Jr who was thought unbeatable was lucky to escape with a win then taken out in 2 rounds by Antonio Tarver.
Both Leonard and Jones relied on incredible speed and when they slowed half a step in seemed they were highly beatable. Mayweather I believe will meet the same fate on September 17th.
As i have said many times before, just my opinion--I may be wrong (and have been many times here in the last 8 years).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
I'm almost positive that Mayweather will walk right through Oritz. However, I am completely positive that Pacquiao is going to blow Marquez right out of the water.
JMM was the better fighter over the course of his career, obviously, but he's badly faded now. He won't see the 6th round this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BoxingGorilla
I voted Ortiz. Pac has already faced Marquez and knows what is getting himself into.
:Oops:
I'm a vindictive bastard. I apologize :jester:
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
You were right and I apologise to you, what the hell was I thinking. :-\
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
littlebif
At this point in there careers i would say Ortiz, he has come off the biggest win of his life he's young and hungry plus his condidence is sky high.
Marquez has given Manny Pac fits before but that was awhile back and Marquez is'nt as affective at the higher weights.
He still has the style to trouble the pac man but he isnt as fast as what he was afew years ago and the extra weight will slow him down abit. Where Manny has kept his speed and increased his power moving up the weights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Marquez spent 100 years at featherweight. He lost to Floyd at welterweight then jumped straight back down to lightweight. I think it's pretty clear Marquez was never a welter.
Ortiz is naturally much bigger and younger than him. Even if less skilled he is clearly more dangerous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Based on history, style, and outright talent it's Marquez. JMM has been a thorn in Pac's side for a while. BUT that being said, Ortiz is fresher, he's a go for broke style fighter, he's apparently found his heart, and he's on the upswing.
I fully expect the favorites to prevail in these fights, but to me Ortiz could pull of the upset, I doubt JMM can at this point in time. But Vic does eat a TON of right crosses, so I wouldn't be surprised if he got KO'd
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I misunderstood the question.
Marquez has already beat Pac twice IMO. However, I believe this Pac, at this weight, is going to stop him.
Ortiz-Floyd is a complete unknown. If Floyd wins easy everyone will say it was expected. If FLoyd loses most "experts" will say he's clearly past his best.
So, on paper, Marquez is a far tougher opponent. If Marquez-Pac is close it will be nothing we haven't seen already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Marquez and it's not debatable.
Ortiz and it is not debatable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
P4P Marquez is a better fighter than Ortiz but how good is he at welterweight.
His only fight at welterweight against Floyd Mayweather, he looked terrible. Being that it was Floyd though, you could point to it being more of a bad matchup for him than the weight or a combination of both.
One thing was clear in that fight was Marquez didn't have power. Mayweather laughed at his punches and i think in his previous fights with Pacquiao that the reason he had so much success was because he was able to get Pacquiao to respect his punching power combined with the fact he had excellent timing, good footwork and he could land in combinations.
What we do know about Ortiz is that his speed, size, ability and most importantly his power have carried up to welterweight and as proof, he is coming off his best win against a top welterweight in Berto who he beat decisively.
Based on their credentials at welterweight, Ortiz is the tougher opponent but if Marquez is able to perform against Pacquiao like he did in their previous fights, he's the tougher opponent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mars_ax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Ortiz, the young southpaw, coming off a career-defining win over highly-touted Andre Berto or Marquez, the future HOF, one of the top Mexican fighters of all time, and who has given Pacquiao fits in the two times they faced eachother?
I expect "Surfer Vic" Ortiz to give Duckweather fits, but I don't expect Manny to have any problems with JMM, this isn't the same 2 pugs who fought before, Manny is much better now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jody Lane
Personally I think Ortiz because I think he is gonna take Mayweather out. I see history repeating itself again as in 1991 and 2003/4. In 1991 Sugar Ray Leonard came out of almost 2 years of inactivity and got scrambled by Terry Norris. In 2003/2004 Roy Jones Jr who was thought unbeatable was lucky to escape with a win then taken out in 2 rounds by Antonio Tarver.
Both Leonard and Jones relied on incredible speed and when they slowed half a step in seemed they were highly beatable. Mayweather I believe will meet the same fate on September 17th.
As i have said many times before, just my opinion--I may be wrong (and have been many times here in the last 8 years).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
I'm almost positive that Mayweather will walk right through Oritz. However, I am completely positive that Pacquiao is going to blow Marquez right out of the water.
JMM was the better fighter over the course of his career, obviously, but he's badly faded now. He won't see the 6th round this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BoxingGorilla
I voted Ortiz. Pac has already faced Marquez and knows what is getting himself into.
:Oops:
I'm a vindictive bastard. I apologize :jester:
Why are you quoting the Fenster? I was 100% correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Marquez is a far tougher opponent. If Marquez-Pac is close it will be nothing we haven't seen already.
Was I wrong? NO.
Clearly a genius. Fact.
Re: Who is the tougher opponent, Ortiz or Marquez?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FinitoElDinamita
Marquez and it's not debatable.
Ortiz and it is not debatable.
I told you it's not debatable.. :cool:
