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Did Kessler deserve a rematch against Calzaghe? Did Hopkins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I think Kessler deserves a rematch. Bute would be a logical fight. Also Hopkins and maybe down the line a fight with Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by LobowolfXXXWho's Ward supposed to beat? Obviously, we can't assess his longevity for a while, but just in the last 2 1/2 years, he's beaten Miranda, Kessler, Green, Abraham, Bika, and Froch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
No, because neither of those fighters had the skillset to deal with Calzaghe. Calzaghe/Kessler was a clean fight. Hopkins/Calzaghe wasn't clean, but it was decisive.Quote:
Originally Posted by LobowolfXXXDid Kessler deserve a rematch against Calzaghe? Did Hopkins?Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfI think Kessler deserves a rematch. Bute would be a logical fight. Also Hopkins and maybe down the line a fight with Chad Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by LobowolfXXXWho's Ward supposed to beat? Obviously, we can't assess his longevity for a while, but just in the last 2 1/2 years, he's beaten Miranda, Kessler, Green, Abraham, Bika, and Froch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
Kessler/Ward was extremely tarnished and foul play was stamped all over it. Kessler didn't deserve to be held and rammed all evening.
Hopkins didn't have the skillset to deal with Calzaghe? You wouldn't have known it from the judges' cards or the knockdown. You're kind of moving the goalposts a bit when you talk about Ward/Kessler and Calzaghe/Hopkins. You say that Calzaghe/Hopkins "wasn't clean, but it was decisive." Well, Ward/Kessler, even if it wasn't clean, was decisive.
At a comparable age, there's no contest in their resumes; Ward has it all over Calzaghe. He's beaten the Ring Magazine #2, 3, 5, and 9. Calzaghe's level of competition at the same age pales in comparison. Calzaghe's resume was made in the later years. We'll have to see what Ward does in the next 10 years. That doesn't mean that a 27 year old Ward would beat a 27 year old Calzaghe; but he's certainly demonstrated his clear superiority over more of the top 168-pounders than Calzaghe did at this stage.
Hopkins did have they skills to match calzaghe but he doesnt have the workrate and thats what won it for calzaghe.
calzaghe didnt have the benefit of the ring mag ratings or the supersixQuote:
Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX
but yes ward has a better record at the same point in their careers
still, calzaghe would win the fight
ward just isnt that good and doesnt have the stamina
Not really. I just mean that Hopkins fought dirty, but still got his just desserts. With Kessler/Ward the cheater won thus making it relatively inconclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX
Joe Calzaghe fought decent opposition during his career. It's just that amongst the defences there was some crap too, but the same can be said of Hopkins and Jones as well. What makes Allan Green a decent opponent? What makes someone like Miranda a good opponent? These are nothing that Calzaghe himself didn't fight relatively early as champion. Seriously, people are putting Ward on a pedestal and it's really just a lot of hype. Allan Green hasn't beaten anyone. Miranda loses all of his big fights.
Calzaghe fought and beat everyone there was to beat, nothing more could have been accomplished. Ward has done well for himself too, but I don't think he is as good as the hype is suggesting and in fact I think Froch has shown the flaws, but to take advantage you do need to be very good and Calzaghe wasn't only very good, he was exceptional. Calzaghe would have wiped the floor with Ward and I intrinsically believe that. Calzaghe is all wrong for Ward and to beat him you are going to have to outwork him and tire him and that was Calzaghe's modus operandi.
Calzaghe would have owned the Super 6 had he been allowed to travel through time and take his peak self to the start of it. The Super 6 is full of decent fighters, but they are not exceptional. Very few fighters are exceptional. I see discipline and craft in Ward, but nothing exceptional. He is a grafter and good at it, but Calzaghe is a different level stylistically. With Ward the blueprint is kind of there, but nobody has a clue how to beat Joe Calzaghe.
The stamina and workrate is part of the skillset. Either you can throw that much or you can't. Calzaghe's output was an ability and you have to include it as one of his tools. Hopkins has never had it in him to throw a hundred punches in a round. It is one of the things that makes Calzaghe great.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlebif
Ward's resume is already better than Calzaghe's and he's still got big fights and his prime left. Can't say if he's great yet need to see him for a few more years.
Every fighter in the history of the sport is beatable, it's just about styles.
How is his resume better than Calzaghe's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
He has beaten two Calzaghe leftovers and has a bunch of middling fighters like Abraham, Miranda and Green. He could potentially have a better resume than that of Calzaghe, but at the same time where are the names he could fight? He has to fight Bute and then maybe move up and fight the likes of Dawson, Hopkins and Cloud, but as things stand I don't think his resume is better than Calzaghe's and people have selective amnesia when it comes to who Calzaghe fought in his early years as champ. People like Reid, Sheika, Eubank and Mitchell are every bit as significant as Abraham et al. Are we really going to suggest that Allan Green would have beaten even a shop worn Eubank? It is nonsense.
Wards resume is decent enough, but I don't see how it is superior to that of Calzaghe.
I think the opinion was that if Froch won the super six, his legacy would be better than that of Calzaghe. This was a thread we discussed in depth , well didnt Ward win the super six ?
Ward beat a much better opposition than Calzaghe , how can Mr Play it safe find fault with Ward.
Isnt a fool wise after the event.
Who though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
You dont think Ward has fought better opposition than Calzaghe at the same stage of their respective careers ?Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWho though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Calzaghe - Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Veit, SheikaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlYou dont think Ward has fought better opposition than Calzaghe at the same stage of their respective careers ?Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWho though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Ward - Green, Abraham, Froch, Kessler, Miranda
There isn't all that much in it. Eubank was faded, so was Kessler. People are going to remember Green and Miranda just as much as they do Sheika and Woodhall. Abraham and Veit are your token popular in Germany fighters. Reid was a good fighter though never going to go down as a great, a bit like Froch who only beat a well faded Reid.
The only difference was Calzaghe was busier and had more filler.
You mean had alot of defences against club fighters ?Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfCalzaghe - Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Veit, SheikaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlYou dont think Ward has fought better opposition than Calzaghe at the same stage of their respective careers ?Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWho though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Ward - Green, Abraham, Froch, Kessler, Miranda
There isn't all that much in it. Eubank was faded, so was Kessler. People are going to remember Green and Miranda just as much as they do Sheika and Woodhall. Abraham and Veit are your token popular in Germany fighters. Reid was a good fighter though never going to go down as a great, a bit like Froch who only beat a well faded Reid.
The only difference was Calzaghe was busier and had more filler.
Sheika had lost to ( 28 -44 -7 ) Tony Booth for fucks sake.
Yet beaten Glen Johnson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlYou mean had alot of defences against club fighters ?Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfCalzaghe - Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Veit, SheikaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlYou dont think Ward has fought better opposition than Calzaghe at the same stage of their respective careers ?Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWho though? I really don't see anyone on Ward's resume that is better than the best fighters on Calzaghe's resume. It doesn't make any sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Ward - Green, Abraham, Froch, Kessler, Miranda
There isn't all that much in it. Eubank was faded, so was Kessler. People are going to remember Green and Miranda just as much as they do Sheika and Woodhall. Abraham and Veit are your token popular in Germany fighters. Reid was a good fighter though never going to go down as a great, a bit like Froch who only beat a well faded Reid.
The only difference was Calzaghe was busier and had more filler.
Sheika had lost to Tony Booth for fucks sake.