Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobthepen
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
I dont know, there has to be a reason why they never fought, including Benn and Eubank. It cant just be everyone elses fault can it? Even Mike Tyson probably the most feared fighter of the last 30 years had people queuing to fight him for the purse. Same as any feared fighter. They generate money.
Unless its a high risk low reward fighter (Bika) but having Jones scalp would be high reward. I do think I remember he wasnt a really big money fighter back then though. He wasnt put on British tv until 96. I remember the first fight of his on British tv was the Bryant Brannon fight. Maybe there was just not enough money or interest involved for the likes of Benn and Eubank who were relatively big earners.
Jones made his super middle debut against Toney at the end of '94, and was testing the waters at light heavy by January '96
Eubank lost his title to Collins in early 95, then rematched Collins in late '95.
Benn wanted easy paydays after McClellan in early '95, and lost his championship a year later.
I think it was as much a case of too small a window to sort these fights out.
Thats pretty much true for Jones after Toney I'd say. When Benn was coming off the fight of his life Jones saw fit to ride a bloated HBO contract and beat up an obvious mis matched Pazienza and Thorton who was coming off an out and out robbery 'w' to a 50-50 Lenzie Morgan.
I do think there was a small window for Jones v Benn after McClellan.
I remember reading articles in Ring and elsewhere where Benn called for it ( though saying it might be an uphill battle) and Jones saying basically...maybe later, but not right now.
I cannot get over the irony of Roy clamouring for relevance today by going overseas for paydays while back at the top he would hear nothing of it and literally yell that he wasn't being payed enough to take the risk. I wish he would retire and call fights from ringside.
I remember in 96 (I think) the ring did a special feature on Mike Tyson where he had pictures with his white tigers and they asked him shit like would he fight Eric Esche (butter bean) and Mike basically laughed it off saying he knew him and he was a nice fellow. Then they asked him what he thought of Jones and that jones says there is no one for him to fight and I haven't seen this article since it came out but I remember almost word for word they quoted Mike as saying "that's not true at all, there's Nigel Benn" he even went on to say how he liked Benn as he reminded him of himself and that he'd give Jones a very hard fight. Benn beat McClellan who jones was shit scared to fight and although the McClellan fight took a lot out of Benn it did make him a massive name world wide. He was already known massively in america for going over and doing Barkley inside of a round, who then went on to push toney hard.
Jones was good but he was also flattered by the level of opposition.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Imo somewhere in the mid 80’s the idea of risk and reward began to change and I think Leonard pushed it off the plank when he came out of a 3 year hiatus and beat Hagler. Star power and the money derived from it for all concerned became more important then real legacy or taking the risk to get the reward. No need to. They then added PPV and boxing has been eroding ever since.
Collins, Eubank, Benn and Watson were Britain's Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns and like them, they all fought each other save Watson/Collins and no doubt made millions. I’m not British but I cannot recall a better era of British boxing.
People keep saying Roy fought a bunch of tradesman well enlighten me on who he could have fought and why he never fought them.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
He could have fought all of them.
Does it matter when they fought? Collins has 2 wins over Benn after Benn retired. Why wasn't Jones trying to lure them out of retirement or tryi g to get those names on his record?
And here we go again with the "why should he". THe should have because he could have and now people don't regard him as high as he could have been.
Benn fought everyone and travelled. Eubank went to Germany and beat the undefeated Rochigiani.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
That is where you are wrong. And they could have fought him. Explain to me how Roy is to blame at 160 for Benn and Watson or 168 for all four? They are all to blame and Roy held all the cards. You want to beat the man then go to his house and do it. Venue cannot be relevant and not relevant at the same time depending on which side you are on.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobthepen
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
I dont know, there has to be a reason why they never fought, including Benn and Eubank. It cant just be everyone elses fault can it? Even Mike Tyson probably the most feared fighter of the last 30 years had people queuing to fight him for the purse. Same as any feared fighter. They generate money.
Unless its a high risk low reward fighter (Bika) but having Jones scalp would be high reward. I do think I remember he wasnt a really big money fighter back then though. He wasnt put on British tv until 96. I remember the first fight of his on British tv was the Bryant Brannon fight. Maybe there was just not enough money or interest involved for the likes of Benn and Eubank who were relatively big earners.
Jones made his super middle debut against Toney at the end of '94, and was testing the waters at light heavy by January '96
Eubank lost his title to Collins in early 95, then rematched Collins in late '95.
Benn wanted easy paydays after McClellan in early '95, and lost his championship a year later.
I think it was as much a case of too small a window to sort these fights out.
Thats pretty much true for Jones after Toney I'd say. When Benn was coming off the fight of his life Jones saw fit to ride a bloated HBO contract and beat up an obvious mis matched Pazienza and Thorton who was coming off an out and out robbery 'w' to a 50-50 Lenzie Morgan.
I do think there was a small window for Jones v Benn after McClellan.
I remember reading articles in Ring and elsewhere where Benn called for it ( though saying it might be an uphill battle) and Jones saying basically...maybe later, but not right now.
I cannot get over the irony of Roy clamouring for relevance today by going overseas for paydays while back at the top he would hear nothing of it and literally yell that he wasn't being payed enough to take the risk. I wish he would retire and call fights from ringside.
I remember in 96 (I think) the ring did a special feature on Mike Tyson where he had pictures with his white tigers and they asked him shit like would he fight Eric Esche (butter bean) and Mike basically laughed it off saying he knew him and he was a nice fellow. Then they asked him what he thought of Jones and that jones says there is no one for him to fight and I haven't seen this article since it came out but I remember almost word for word they quoted Mike as saying "that's not true at all, there's Nigel Benn" he even went on to say how he liked Benn as he reminded him of himself and that he'd give Jones a very hard fight. Benn beat McClellan who jones was shit scared to fight and although the McClellan fight took a lot out of Benn it did make him a massive name world wide. He was already known massively in america for going over and doing Barkley inside of a round, who then went on to push toney hard.
Jones was good but he was also flattered by the level of opposition.
Ross you are my Mayorga homie, but this is some revisionist history you got going here ;D
In no way did Barkley push James Toney. Toney tortured him and prolonged the dominant beating as long as he wanted to. It was a cruel savage ass whipping and I felt bad for Barkley.
I own Benn's career set and he was awesome. However, he was chinny and left himself wide open a lot. He would have been picked apart by James Toney or Roy Jones Jr. Benn also said that yes he'd like to fight Roy Jones but that Roy was the only one that would "put the fear of God in me" and saw it as a great challenge.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Imo somewhere in the mid 80’s the idea of risk and reward began to change and I think Leonard pushed it off the plank when he came out of a 3 year hiatus and beat Hagler. Star power and the money derived from it for all concerned became more important then real legacy or taking the risk to get the reward. No need to. They then added PPV and boxing has been eroding ever since.
Collins, Eubank, Benn and Watson were Britain's Duran, Leonard, Hagler and Hearns and like them, they all fought each other save Watson/Collins and no doubt made millions. I’m not British but I cannot recall a better era of British boxing.
People keep saying Roy fought a bunch of tradesman well enlighten me on who he could have fought and why he never fought them.
Well Benn was a fellow reigning champ with huge exposure on Showtime over in America and Eubanks was ranked in top ten thru his spr middle reign. Hey, its a start ;D
I'll give all four something I can't give Roy...respects for at least leaving the comforts of eachs backyard and in Benns, Eubanks and Collins case fighting for, defending and-or winning Championships on foreign soil at some point. Honestly..they took risks. Of course...Jones didn't 'have' to do that is said. He did have alot of guys trucked in as he benifited from what HBO reported at the time to be the largest multi fight contract afforded to any previous boxer. Pazienza was a sanctioned slaughter house. I can't fault him totally, no, but he certainly didn't go out and clean up a division he proclaimed to be 'Tha Man' in in the first place.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Well Benn was a fellow reigning champ with huge exposure on Showtime over in America and Eubanks was ranked in top ten thru his spr middle reign. Hey, its a start ;D
I'll give all four something I can't give Roy...respects for at least leaving the comforts of eachs backyard and in Benns, Eubanks and Collins case fighting for, defending and-or winning Championships on foreign soil at some point. Honestly..they took risks. Of course...Jones didn't 'have' to do that is said. He did have alot of guys trucked in as he benifited from what HBO reported at the time to be the largest multi fight contract afforded to any previous boxer. Pazienza was a sanctioned slaughter house. I can't fault him totally, no, but he certainly didn't go out and clean up a division he proclaimed to be 'Tha Man' in in the first place.
True but that does not mean that Roy was somehow obligated to go to England anymore then it obligated Nigel to come to Vegas. Point is this blame on Roy for these fights not taking place are unreasonable. Benn fought Galvano twice and the ever dangerous Gent. In 94 Jones embarrassed Tony. They are all equally responsible and the same goes for Dariusz at 175. Jones would not budge and neither would he.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobthepen
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
I dont know, there has to be a reason why they never fought, including Benn and Eubank. It cant just be everyone elses fault can it? Even Mike Tyson probably the most feared fighter of the last 30 years had people queuing to fight him for the purse. Same as any feared fighter. They generate money.
Unless its a high risk low reward fighter (Bika) but having Jones scalp would be high reward. I do think I remember he wasnt a really big money fighter back then though. He wasnt put on British tv until 96. I remember the first fight of his on British tv was the Bryant Brannon fight. Maybe there was just not enough money or interest involved for the likes of Benn and Eubank who were relatively big earners.
Jones made his super middle debut against Toney at the end of '94, and was testing the waters at light heavy by January '96
Eubank lost his title to Collins in early 95, then rematched Collins in late '95.
Benn wanted easy paydays after McClellan in early '95, and lost his championship a year later.
I think it was as much a case of too small a window to sort these fights out.
Thats pretty much true for Jones after Toney I'd say. When Benn was coming off the fight of his life Jones saw fit to ride a bloated HBO contract and beat up an obvious mis matched Pazienza and Thorton who was coming off an out and out robbery 'w' to a 50-50 Lenzie Morgan.
I do think there was a small window for Jones v Benn after McClellan.
I remember reading articles in Ring and elsewhere where Benn called for it ( though saying it might be an uphill battle) and Jones saying basically...maybe later, but not right now.
I cannot get over the irony of Roy clamouring for relevance today by going overseas for paydays while back at the top he would hear nothing of it and literally yell that he wasn't being payed enough to take the risk. I wish he would retire and call fights from ringside.
I remember in 96 (I think) the ring did a special feature on Mike Tyson where he had pictures with his white tigers and they asked him shit like would he fight Eric Esche (butter bean) and Mike basically laughed it off saying he knew him and he was a nice fellow. Then they asked him what he thought of Jones and that jones says there is no one for him to fight and I haven't seen this article since it came out but I remember almost word for word they quoted Mike as saying "that's not true at all, there's Nigel Benn" he even went on to say how he liked Benn as he reminded him of himself and that he'd give Jones a very hard fight. Benn beat McClellan who jones was shit scared to fight and although the McClellan fight took a lot out of Benn it did make him a massive name world wide. He was already known massively in america for going over and doing Barkley inside of a round, who then went on to push toney hard.
Jones was good but he was also flattered by the level of opposition.
Barkley pushed Toney hard ? i think you might want to rewatch that fight, Toney smacked Barkley all around the ring and punished him. Roy Jones and Gerald McClellan were friends which is why they didn't fight. RJJ was the only boxer who gave McClellan a helping hand when he was in a bad way.
Nigel Benn only had a punchers chance vs RJJ, and it would be a very slim chance at that. People say RJJ fought sh** opponents and this and that. But Thulani Malinga was robbed vs Nigel Benn in there 1st meeting then Malinga beat Benn handily in a rematch, RJJ sparked out Malinga in 6 rounds, also Eubank went 12 rounds with Malinga. So doesn't RJJ get credit for that win ?
RJJ did fight his fair share of good opposition and a few mediocre opposition, but atleast RJJ was destroying his opponents. Where as Nigel Benn almost got stopped by feather fisted Galvano in the last round, wobbled by Danny Perez. And there's a bunch of other examples of Benn's suspect chin getting him in trouble against lesser opposition.
Nigel Benn was a great fighter to watch, i watched him as a little kid and was in awe at his aggression. But lets be serious here unless Nigel Benn gets a lucky punch a prime RJJ would destroy Nigel Benn. And both Chris Eubank, Steve Collins, would be outpointed clearly infact i think he'd stop Steve Collins who's style is tailor made for RJJ.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Well Benn was a fellow reigning champ with huge exposure on Showtime over in America and Eubanks was ranked in top ten thru his spr middle reign. Hey, its a start ;D
I'll give all four something I can't give Roy...respects for at least leaving the comforts of eachs backyard and in Benns, Eubanks and Collins case fighting for, defending and-or winning Championships on foreign soil at some point. Honestly..they took risks. Of course...Jones didn't 'have' to do that is said. He did have alot of guys trucked in as he benifited from what HBO reported at the time to be the largest multi fight contract afforded to any previous boxer. Pazienza was a sanctioned slaughter house. I can't fault him totally, no, but he certainly didn't go out and clean up a division he proclaimed to be 'Tha Man' in in the first place.
True but that does not mean that Roy was somehow obligated to go to England anymore then it obligated Nigel to come to Vegas. Point is this blame on Roy for these fights not taking place are unreasonable. Benn fought Galvano twice and the ever dangerous Gent. In 94 Jones embarrassed Tony. They are all equally responsible and the same goes for Dariusz at 175. Jones would not budge and neither would he.
No, he wasn't obligated. Your right. Afterall he was a shot caller and the major attraction. But at the same time he was soaked in an air of entitlement and presumption of certainty when in fact there was better challenges to be had. They literally put him on a broadway stage in a top hat with showgirls FFS. Roy was about being Roy and can't say he owned an era or faced all the top dogs. He was all about 'they don't pay me enough to take those risks'. He can hang his hat on an early Hopkins and Toney of course. Shit I think he psyched Toney out before the bell rang and am not one to by all that talk about Toney being a fat slob etc. Equally all the talk about 'if Roy had not gone to heavy he would be an all time great' etc. So what. Thats on him...thats his doing. I mean if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass when they hopped? I also think his Hill win was one of the better ones. But all this God speak grew tired and watching him cling to shadows now is really a bit sad, for him and of him. I think we missed some gems of matches! Hypotheticals are exactly that, and its much much more believable to watch a guy defeat opponents than to say he will just because. He wasn't some cyborg, and in the end it turns out he bled too.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Thats it. Jones had 2 decent wins over Hopkins and Toney then had a very mediocre run for ages before he fought Ruiz.
He beat Eric Lucas and Clinton Woods and some other journeymen but he could have had great fights with THE names that were around like Eubank, Benn, Collins, Calzaghe, michalczewski, Liles. He could have been the one to move up and show Holyfield up but he thought Holyfield hit too hard and went for Ruiz.
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Thats it. Jones had 2 decent wins over Hopkins and Toney then had a very mediocre run for ages before he fought Ruiz.
He beat Eric Lucas and Clinton Woods and some other journeymen but he could have had great fights with THE names that were around like Eubank, Benn, Collins, Calzaghe, michalczewski, Liles. He could have been the one to move up and show Holyfield up but he thought Holyfield hit too hard and went for Ruiz.
Lol..so blinded.
I would like to see benn, eubank, collins and calzaghe move up and deal with that ruiz..
From middle to heavyweight..that alone shows what risks Rjj took to make history.
Depends on whether he did that jump clean eh...
Re: Steve Collins vs Roy jones jr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Well Benn was a fellow reigning champ with huge exposure on Showtime over in America and Eubanks was ranked in top ten thru his spr middle reign. Hey, its a start ;D
I'll give all four something I can't give Roy...respects for at least leaving the comforts of eachs backyard and in Benns, Eubanks and Collins case fighting for, defending and-or winning Championships on foreign soil at some point. Honestly..they took risks. Of course...Jones didn't 'have' to do that is said. He did have alot of guys trucked in as he benifited from what HBO reported at the time to be the largest multi fight contract afforded to any previous boxer. Pazienza was a sanctioned slaughter house. I can't fault him totally, no, but he certainly didn't go out and clean up a division he proclaimed to be 'Tha Man' in in the first place.
True but that does not mean that Roy was somehow obligated to go to England anymore then it obligated Nigel to come to Vegas. Point is this blame on Roy for these fights not taking place are unreasonable. Benn fought Galvano twice and the ever dangerous Gent. In 94 Jones embarrassed Tony. They are all equally responsible and the same goes for Dariusz at 175. Jones would not budge and neither would he.
No, he wasn't obligated. Your right. Afterall he was a shot caller and the major attraction. But at the same time he was soaked in an air of entitlement and presumption of certainty when in fact there was better challenges to be had. They literally put him on a broadway stage in a top hat with showgirls FFS. Roy was about being Roy and can't say he owned an era or faced all the top dogs. He was all about 'they don't pay me enough to take those risks'. He can hang his hat on an early Hopkins and Toney of course. Shit I think he psyched Toney out before the bell rang and am not one to by all that talk about Toney being a fat slob etc. Equally all the talk about 'if Roy had not gone to heavy he would be an all time great' etc. So what. Thats on him...thats his doing. I mean if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass when they hopped? I also think his Hill win was one of the better ones. But all this God speak grew tired and watching him cling to shadows now is really a bit sad, for him and of him. I think we missed some gems of matches! Hypotheticals are exactly that, and its much much more believable to watch a guy defeat opponents than to say he will just because. He wasn't some cyborg, and in the end it turns out he bled too.
Agreed. My only points really are that they were all self centred, egocentric and all share the blame and that the calender or timing was also a factor. As a die hard Jones fan its embarrassing to watch him now. He should have retired after Ruiz.
