Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Wlad is better than his brother now but at their best Vitali may have won although he is very robotic he is more sturdy. Wlad is a difficult fighter to beat for any of the greats but I would have him outside of the top ten. Wlad still has a bit more to go.
Any threat and he fights scared.
Against Vitali he'd have tried holding and leaning but against someone his own size who isn't just a punch bag he would wilt.
If Fury fights Wlad next year and wins, does this wipe out any notion of Wlad ever being a top heavy in history?;D
Lyles logic is all ifs and buts ? however yours isn't ?
He was on about what could have been, what could have happened.
Im asking about something that may well happen in the near future.
If the Haye fight actually goes ahead, Fury wins and becomes the biggest name and money opponent for Wlad. Wlad will be pressured and hug and hold and lose.
Would this instantly wipe out any notion that Wlad is such a great fighter?
Even if you dont agree with anything iv just said. If Fury beats Wlad where does that leave Wlad in all time rankings?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Wlad is better than his brother now but at their best Vitali may have won although he is very robotic he is more sturdy. Wlad is a difficult fighter to beat for any of the greats but I would have him outside of the top ten. Wlad still has a bit more to go.
Any threat and he fights scared.
Against Vitali he'd have tried holding and leaning but against someone his own size who isn't just a punch bag he would wilt.
If Fury fights Wlad next year and wins, does this wipe out any notion of Wlad ever being a top heavy in history?;D
Lyles logic is all ifs and buts ? however yours isn't ?
He was on about what could have been, what could have happened.
Im asking about something that may well happen in the near future.
If the Haye fight actually goes ahead, Fury wins and becomes the biggest name and money opponent for Wlad. Wlad will be pressured and hug and hold and lose.
Would this instantly wipe out any notion that Wlad is such a great fighter?
Even if you dont agree with anything iv just said. If Fury beats Wlad where does that leave Wlad in all time rankings?
Well we will have to wait and see who wins the Haye fight , then see if the match is made , then evaluate things from there .
I think fury gets KOED by the first puncher he meets.
but we will have to wait .
If a 37 year old Wlad loses tomorrow it doesn't overshadow his reign as champ , he has been a good champ if not the most exciting.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Asides the fact that styles make fights? Well you cannot undo accomplishments with defeats. Is Roy Jones any less HOFer and a great SMW because he lost to Allen Green?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
Asides the fact that styles make fights? Well you cannot undo accomplishments with defeats. Is Roy Jones any less HOFer and a great SMW because he lost to Allen Green?
What has Wlad acomplished?
Hes not ever been the undisputed champ and he's not even a better fighter than Corrie Sanders and his brother would have beaten him up.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
Asides the fact that styles make fights? Well you cannot undo accomplishments with defeats. Is Roy Jones any less HOFer and a great SMW because he lost to Allen Green?
What has Wlad acomplished?
Hes not ever been the undisputed champ and he's not even a better fighter than Corrie Sanders and his brother would have beaten him up.
Wlad and Vitali have said they will never fight , so how can he be undisputed champ while they are both active ?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
Asides the fact that styles make fights? Well you cannot undo accomplishments with defeats. Is Roy Jones any less HOFer and a great SMW because he lost to Allen Green?
What has Wlad acomplished?
Hes not ever been the undisputed champ and he's not even a better fighter than Corrie Sanders and his brother would have beaten him up.
Wlad and Vitali have said they will never fight , so how can he be undisputed champ while they are both active ?
Vitali gives up his belt or retires, fucking simple!
They wont. If one loses the other still has a grip for their promotions.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
I would argue that total domination of all his opponents in title defenses is a good accomplishment. You could argue, perhaps successfully too, that his division is weak and because of that he's doing a good job of defending his title.
But if you look at Benny Leonard heck or even Willie Pep better yet what business did Two Ton Tony have being in the ring with Joe Luis?
All I can ask of a champion of a division is to win the fight. I can't ask them to conjure up an almost even match opponent.
Let me propose a question if I may, If the Klitschko brothers fought tooth and nail for their title defenses would people still suggest that the heavyweight division is lacking? We call Manny and Mayweather great (they are mind you) but we recall their hard fights against the likes of Castillo, DLH, Marquez, Morales, Emanual Augustus Burton (personal favourite journeyman :P)
How do we know the boxers they fight are bums and tomato cans if the only gauge we have is their total domination of those boxers?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Top 10 All Time (not in order):
Marciano
Louis
Holmes
Dempsey
Johnson
Foreman
Lewis
Frazier
Jeffries
Holyfield
11-20
Schmeling
Baer
Tunney
Liston
Walcott
Norton
Tyson
Charles
Bowe
Shavers
21-30
K1
K2
no higher than 21 and 22
Not sure if I missed it but where is Ali!?
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I think 7 times out of 10 vitali would KO Wlad and I do like him, I think he is more fluid even with his apparent robotic style. he's far more adaptive and I challenge anyone to point me towards a successful heavyweight champ who ducks punches a la Roy Jones Jr.
However I also believe Emanuel Augustus Burton had the talent to be a multi-weight division champion if not for poor management. Potential and actuality regrettably don't mix.
No doubt it was his management that would have him out late night. That told him there was no need to take training seriously. It's just training. And I'm sure it was management that gave him all them drugs and most likely rolled up the joint for him to smoke
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I would argue that total domination of all his opponents in title defenses is a good accomplishment. You could argue, perhaps successfully too, that his division is weak and because of that he's doing a good job of defending his title.
But if you look at Benny Leonard heck or even Willie Pep better yet what business did Two Ton Tony have being in the ring with Joe Luis?
All I can ask of a champion of a division is to win the fight. I can't ask them to conjure up an almost even match opponent.
Let me propose a question if I may, If the Klitschko brothers fought tooth and nail for their title defenses would people still suggest that the heavyweight division is lacking? We call Manny and Mayweather great (they are mind you) but we recall their hard fights against the likes of Castillo, DLH, Marquez, Morales, Emanual Augustus Burton (personal favourite journeyman :P)
How do we know the boxers they fight are bums and tomato cans if the only gauge we have is their total domination of those boxers?
Your missing my point.
Wlad isnt the best in the division, Vitali is. Dont believe me, prove me wrong. Oh you cant.
Yes, Wlad has managed to stay undefeated for a few years but hes still not the undisputed best and im not JUST on about having Vitalis belt as well but the uncertainty of who would win if they fought. His dominance can always be disputed because while his brother is active and winning and they dont fight there is always that dispute over who is better.
Vitali has that fight with a known quantity Lennox Lewis and he gave him his hardest fight. Could Wlad have done that? I doubt it.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I would argue that total domination of all his opponents in title defenses is a good accomplishment. You could argue, perhaps successfully too, that his division is weak and because of that he's doing a good job of defending his title.
But if you look at Benny Leonard heck or even Willie Pep better yet what business did Two Ton Tony have being in the ring with Joe Luis?
All I can ask of a champion of a division is to win the fight. I can't ask them to conjure up an almost even match opponent.
Let me propose a question if I may, If the Klitschko brothers fought tooth and nail for their title defenses would people still suggest that the heavyweight division is lacking? We call Manny and Mayweather great (they are mind you) but we recall their hard fights against the likes of Castillo, DLH, Marquez, Morales, Emanual Augustus Burton (personal favourite journeyman :P)
How do we know the boxers they fight are bums and tomato cans if the only gauge we have is their total domination of those boxers?
Your missing my point.
Wlad isnt the best in the division, Vitali is. Dont believe me, prove me wrong. Oh you cant.
Yes, Wlad has managed to stay undefeated for a few years but hes still not the undisputed best and im not JUST on about having Vitalis belt as well but the uncertainty of who would win if they fought. His dominance can always be disputed because while his brother is active and winning and they dont fight there is always that dispute over who is better.
Vitali has that fight with a known quantity Lennox Lewis and he gave him his hardest fight. Could Wlad have done that? I doubt it.
That right that Vitali landed in the 2nd that badly hurt Lewis would of dropped him if it was Wlad who landed it
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I would argue that total domination of all his opponents in title defenses is a good accomplishment. You could argue, perhaps successfully too, that his division is weak and because of that he's doing a good job of defending his title.
But if you look at Benny Leonard heck or even Willie Pep better yet what business did Two Ton Tony have being in the ring with Joe Luis?
All I can ask of a champion of a division is to win the fight. I can't ask them to conjure up an almost even match opponent.
Let me propose a question if I may, If the Klitschko brothers fought tooth and nail for their title defenses would people still suggest that the heavyweight division is lacking? We call Manny and Mayweather great (they are mind you) but we recall their hard fights against the likes of Castillo, DLH, Marquez, Morales, Emanual Augustus Burton (personal favourite journeyman :P)
How do we know the boxers they fight are bums and tomato cans if the only gauge we have is their total domination of those boxers?
Your missing my point.
Wlad isnt the best in the division, Vitali is. Dont believe me, prove me wrong. Oh you cant.
Yes, Wlad has managed to stay undefeated for a few years but hes still not the undisputed best and im not JUST on about having Vitalis belt as well but the uncertainty of who would win if they fought. His dominance can always be disputed because while his brother is active and winning and they dont fight there is always that dispute over who is better.
Vitali has that fight with a known quantity Lennox Lewis and he gave him his hardest fight. Could Wlad have done that? I doubt it.
That right that Vitali landed in the 2nd that badly hurt Lewis would of dropped him if it was Wlad who landed it
You reckon Wlad would have had the balls to stand in punching range without holding and leaning?
Also, conversly. The uppercut that Lewis landed in the 5th would have put Wlad to sleep.
We all know its more important to be tough than hit hard.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I would argue that total domination of all his opponents in title defenses is a good accomplishment. You could argue, perhaps successfully too, that his division is weak and because of that he's doing a good job of defending his title.
But if you look at Benny Leonard heck or even Willie Pep better yet what business did Two Ton Tony have being in the ring with Joe Luis?
All I can ask of a champion of a division is to win the fight. I can't ask them to conjure up an almost even match opponent.
Let me propose a question if I may, If the Klitschko brothers fought tooth and nail for their title defenses would people still suggest that the heavyweight division is lacking? We call Manny and Mayweather great (they are mind you) but we recall their hard fights against the likes of Castillo, DLH, Marquez, Morales, Emanual Augustus Burton (personal favourite journeyman :P)
How do we know the boxers they fight are bums and tomato cans if the only gauge we have is their total domination of those boxers?
Your missing my point.
Wlad isnt the best in the division, Vitali is. Dont believe me, prove me wrong. Oh you cant.
Yes, Wlad has managed to stay undefeated for a few years but hes still not the undisputed best and im not JUST on about having Vitalis belt as well but the uncertainty of who would win if they fought. His dominance can always be disputed because while his brother is active and winning and they dont fight there is always that dispute over who is better.
Vitali has that fight with a known quantity Lennox Lewis and he gave him his hardest fight. Could Wlad have done that? I doubt it.
I don't disagree, I too think Vitali is the better one, but my point was more about how we decide how tough his opposition is.
Re: Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time great heavyweights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DavilaJones
I would argue that total domination of all his opponents in title defenses is a good accomplishment. You could argue, perhaps successfully too, that his division is weak and because of that he's doing a good job of defending his title.
But if you look at Benny Leonard heck or even Willie Pep better yet what business did Two Ton Tony have being in the ring with Joe Luis?
All I can ask of a champion of a division is to win the fight. I can't ask them to conjure up an almost even match opponent.
Let me propose a question if I may, If the Klitschko brothers fought tooth and nail for their title defenses would people still suggest that the heavyweight division is lacking? We call Manny and Mayweather great (they are mind you) but we recall their hard fights against the likes of Castillo, DLH, Marquez, Morales, Emanual Augustus Burton (personal favourite journeyman :P)
How do we know the boxers they fight are bums and tomato cans if the only gauge we have is their total domination of those boxers?
Your missing my point.
Wlad isnt the best in the division, Vitali is. Dont believe me, prove me wrong. Oh you cant.
Yes, Wlad has managed to stay undefeated for a few years but hes still not the undisputed best and im not JUST on about having Vitalis belt as well but the uncertainty of who would win if they fought. His dominance can always be disputed because while his brother is active and winning and they dont fight there is always that dispute over who is better.
Vitali has that fight with a known quantity Lennox Lewis and he gave him his hardest fight. Could Wlad have done that? I doubt it.
That right that Vitali landed in the 2nd that badly hurt Lewis would of dropped him if it was Wlad who landed it
You reckon Wlad would have had the balls to stand in punching range without holding and leaning?
Also, conversly. The uppercut that Lewis landed in the 5th would have put Wlad to sleep.
We all know its more important to be tough than hit hard.
The right came after they had broken up from a clinch. So yeah Wlad would be in a position to catch him with it.
The uppercut in the 5th is irrelevant. Cuz there would be no 5th if it was Wlad who landed in the 2nd
