Printable View
Ahh ok i was just wondering it you favored fighters who fought in spurts with the more flashy work.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
No I had Hagler up by 2....IMO Leonard got the nod because he was Leonard (No other way to put it)...Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBThats interesting Daxx did you have Leonard beating Hagler ?? just out of curiosity i just want to see how you score fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
I don't like a lot of flash and cettainly do not go for guys who try to steal rounds...Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBAhh ok i was just wondering it you favored fighters who fought in spurts with the more flashy work.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnNo I had Hagler up by 2....IMO Leonard got the nod because he was Leonard (No other way to put it)...Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
With that being said I will sometimes give a round to a guy who was hit more but controlled the tempo of the round...made the other guy fight at his pace...made the guy stop working when he wanted to etc....now I am not talking about if a guy gets peppered the whole round and manages to slow things down by holding on for dear life....
I am talking if he does not run and keeps things going the way he wants...If he fights in spurts he has to control the rest of the tempo...not run, get hit at will then just rattle off some punches every 30 seconds to make it look like has has done something
To answer the original question, yes I think Ali was the greatest ever heavyweight.
Over Louis and Marciano he enjoyed a size, speed, reach, weight and movement advantage.
Over Johnson he had ring generalship and combinations.
I feel Ali at hois peak was the best and would have difficulty only with Holmes, Lewis and Norton.
I showed up here at saddo a n00b boxing fan, and of course would say Ali is the greatest ever. It was all I really knew.
Since reading a lot of educated boxing fan opinions, I no longer have that same mindset. And thanks to the wonders of youtube, online vid in general where I can go watch fighters like Joe Louis and so on, it really broadens ones outlook on the sport. So for now the jury is still out.
So yea, thanks for that. :)
It was his ability to fight in or out that made him a nightmare to deal with. He had the power to slug with you if he had to,but he could also disapeer on a moments notice. He had the weirdest but the best footwork of any heavyweight Ive ever seen,combined with a hook that could drop you dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
That hook finished Oscar Bonavena.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyIt was his ability to fight in or out that made him a nightmare to deal with. He had the power to slug with you if he had to,but he could also disapeer on a moments notice. He had the weirdest but the best footwork of any heavyweight Ive ever seen,combined with a hook that could drop you dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Foreman and Frazier couldn't do that!
;D Have some rep, I needed a chuckle after a long hot day.Quote:
Originally Posted by pacfan
Posters wouldn't make a huge deal about my rankings if they didn't want them changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKAY
Your ratings and your opinions are fine.....you just have a very poor arguement.
BigH, I judged my list based on a fighter's entire career not just their primes...I think "prime" is a very vague word consider George Foreman and Evander Holyfield you can't really find ONE long stretch where they were "in their primes" they had spurts of being good and then being great and then going back to just being good, etc. Mike Tyson was a great fighter but he isn't in my top 10, it's nothing against Mike but he didn't keep his top form for very long, especially when you compare him to Louis, Marciano, Ali, Foreman, and Holmes
The damn thing just came out of nowhere,and came with power to beat the band,youd be thinking you were surviving,and he'd just got bored with you ,and then BOOMQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyThat hook finished Oscar Bonavena.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyIt was his ability to fight in or out that made him a nightmare to deal with. He had the power to slug with you if he had to,but he could also disapeer on a moments notice. He had the weirdest but the best footwork of any heavyweight Ive ever seen,combined with a hook that could drop you dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Foreman and Frazier couldn't do that!
Your lying on the canvas wondering what happened.
Ali was a one of a kind fighter
The man himself said so, so what the heck are they all arguing about, right?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyUK;D Have some rep, I needed a chuckle after a long hot day.Quote:
Originally Posted by pacfan
[quote=Lyle;516045]Posters wouldn't make a huge deal about my rankings if they didn't want them changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKAY
Your ratings and your opinions are fine.....you just have a very poor arguement.
Lyle no one is trying to change your opinion but the reason why you perceive that everyone is trying to change your opinion is that your argument is open to criticism and you fail to recognise it. From someone who is a very good poster, you seem blinkered that your reasoning stands up to scrutiny but unfortunately it does not.
Ali was the best heavyweight ever and you do have to be a sheep to admit that. His record speaks for itself, he had an unbelievable chin, excellent jab, heart of a lion, beat 3 great heavyweight champions, and he inspired more people around the world and transcended boxing like no other fighter has ever done.
The weather in Liverpool is awesome ATM, 23 degrees. Reminds me of Lanzarote :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyUK;D Have some rep, I needed a chuckle after a long hot day.Quote:
Originally Posted by pacfan
#1 Joe Louis - Max Baer, Jim Braddock, Max Schmelling, and Joe WalcottQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Rocky Marciano - Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, and Joe Louis
#2 Joe and Rocky both had: Unbelieveable chins, hearts of lions, and inspired people.
#3 Joe Louis did more for this country than Ali could EVER do and that's not said because I don't agree with Ali's politics, it's said because Joe Louis really did do so much for this country and for his people.
I think what everyone needs to realize is I am not taking Ali's achievements down a peg it's I think Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano's accomplishments are THAT good....it doesn't diminish what Ali did. I never said Ali wasn't great, I never said anything bad about him but I get lectured to like I have just taken a big steaming crap on his legacy and that's not the case at all.
I'm not a huge fan of Ali, I think he was overrated as a PERSON and his exploits outside the ring are greatly exaggerated/romanticized because he is so beloved.
That being said giving the #1 spot of all time to anyone else is, IMO, rediculous. He was the best in the best period of HW boxing. Look at his record, its a who's who of the mid 60s to late 70s. NOBODY in the history of HW boxing has the quality of wins Ali has. Of course there were guys in history who would give Ali fits and possibly beat him, but if you look at everything - skill, accomplishments, heart, physical attributes - there was no one better.
Marciano was an ATG no question and one hell of a fighter, but there is no comparing his 49-0 record to Ali's 56-5. If Marciano fought the quality of opposition that Ali did, I gaurentee you he would not have that pretty undefeated record.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Yeah and how old/far into their careers were those guys when Marciano beat them? :rolleyes:
And how about Joe Louis' 69 (55 KO)-3???
Rocky fought anyone and everyone, it's not his fault they were old, they were still good and Rocky wasn't picked to beat them either.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Yeah and how old/far into their careers were those guys when Marciano beat them? :rolleyes:
Well into their primes, as I read yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Yeah and how old/far into their careers were those guys when Marciano beat them? :rolleyes:
When Marciano knocked out Louis, he was reflective of the fighter he just beat. Remembered idolizing Louis as a kid, Louis once tossing him a dollar as he stood on the sidelines watching his hero pass by. After the fight, Marciano was said to have went to Louis, hugged him, said he was sorry, and then left in tears.
Rocky was not picked to beat an old Joe Loius :confused:
He wasn't picked to beat Rex Layne
Oh cmon Lyle,its obviously the politics with you,Ali was a force of nature in his prime
You guys call 23 degrees or so hot??? It's something like 35 degrees here.Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyleeThe weather in Liverpool is awesome ATM, 23 degrees. Reminds me of Lanzarote :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyUK;D Have some rep, I needed a chuckle after a long hot day.Quote:
Originally Posted by pacfan
Agree 100% amat. Ali would have run circles around Marciano. Marciano was a great champ but people get mesmerized by the fact he had 0 losses, and forget that his era wasn't nearly as competitive as Ali's era.Quote:
Originally Posted by amatI'm sorry that's ridiculous to rank Marciano over Ali. He had I think 7 title defenses and none of them were anything stellar. That's absurd Lyle and I love Rocky Marciano. Ali more or less dominated the best era in heavyweight history I would have him as my top heavyweight but have no problems with Louis being regarded as the greatest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
To answer the thread question.... yes, Ali was really the best.
No it's not the politics.....and I never said he wasn't a "force of nature"Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
As per Ali running circles around Louis and Rocky....who cares, it's not a who can beat who match up it's who's the greatest and I figured out my top fighters by what they did for their whole career and how successful they were and maybe you disagree about the greatness of Louis and Rocky but you cannot knock their success in the ring.
I AM NOT QUESTIONING ALI'S GREATNESS
You're not going to change my opinion on this matter and yes I am justified in having my top 3 the way it is.
Call me crazy but I think a prime Larry Holmes would beat every fighter mentioned so far.
Well considering over here in the UK its normally pissing down with rain all the time, and even some thunder storms in the summer, plus our last summer was garbage, that is pretty hot.Quote:
Originally Posted by pacfanYou guys call 23 degrees or so hot??? It's something like 35 degrees here.Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyleeThe weather in Liverpool is awesome ATM, 23 degrees. Reminds me of Lanzarote :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyUK
BLASPHEMY!!!!! You disgrace Muhamed Ali sir.....I demand satisfaction! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
HAHAHA, just fucking with you, but be prepared that's what's coming for you
I agree with FightFan Holmes could beat any Heavyweight in history at his best.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleBLASPHEMY!!!!! You disgrace Muhamed Ali sir.....I demand satisfaction! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
HAHAHA, just fucking with you, but be prepared that's what's coming for you
My lists tend to change as time goes by but for the most part it's the same names...
Ali
Jack
Joe
Rocky
Lennox
Evander
Foreman
Holmes
Floyd
Tyson
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
A prime Larry had the tools to beat any other HW without a doubt...That does not make im the best but his jab alone could win him the fight....he has without question the best jab of all time...not only as a HW but perhaps P4P.....
Any of the top 5 or 10 could beat any other man on the list at any given night....
Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Lewis, Louis, Tyson, Holyfield....All could beat the other depending on whos night it was
So no Walcott and no Charles??? Dude seriously give those guys their props....Floyd Patterson....how many times did he defend the title successfully???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Here...Patterson, Walcott, Charles, johnson, Dempsey....
Really did not want to go through the encyclopedia mate thought everyone pretty much got the idea
i think muhammad ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time i have nearly got everyone of his fights,
so i have seen a fair amount to judge him, i just
think he had it all, his great hand speed and footwork in his early days
was unreal and his ablity to obsorb punches i think he was one of the toughest fighters as well to get up from that left hook against joe frazier
so quick you got to give him credit for that
i also think he would of beaten joe louis,rocky marciano,jack dempsey
dont get me wrong they where great fighters aswell but not like ali,
ali would find away to beat them guys i have over 30 full fights on
joe louse so i have seen alot on him to
and i have seen dempsey and marciano fights also i do think tho
that ali was luck to get the decision over jimmy young and the 3rd fight against ken norton but you know them guys where not great like ali i think
the only other heavyweight that comes close is larry holmes what a jab that guy had and he could hit harder than ali but ali would still be my number 1
Nice, post Welcome to Saddos and hope you enjoy your stay here with us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid blackie
30 full fights of Joe Louis ?? i didn't even think you could get half that amount of his full fights, where did you get his fights from ?? and you say Norton and Young werrn't great fighters like Ali so then in your opinion what does that say about Ali who struggled badly against both of them ?? don't get me wrong Ali is a great fighter but your comment there made no sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid blackie
Ok I've had a few and now some thoguht's of Ali are surfacing.Personally to start off I don't like I believe he is a racist and was more rewarded for what he did inside the ring because of his stance with the Vietnam war.When he beat Sonny Liston there was always contraversy.Look at those fight's especially the second no I am not saying anything about a phantom punch but when that punch connected his foot was up in the air,honestly when your feet are not planted you have no power common knowledge.So how would a man who could take on as many as five cops with billy clubs cracking him in the head go down from such a punch it was insane.Then as you see him rolling on the canvas he looks up at referee Jersey Joe counting over him to see what the count is he then rolls onto his stomach and then gets up.His hands are down thinking to himself the fight is over but when Jersey Joe walks away Ali jumps at him and hands go right up as if he had not a foggy moment when he was down. Anyway there was always something around Ali's fight's that he was allowed to get away with the Bonavena punching consistently behind the head,the grabbing and pushing down behind the head of Joe Frasier, the infamous tear in the glove when he fought Henry Cooper and took him 13 minutes to get a new glove becuase he was simply out on his feet (in which the same type of thing happened to Ken Buchanan in the Roberto Duran fight he wanted extra time for a low blow but they said no you can't continue),the knockdown from shavers which was called a no knockdown and many more if you want me to name them.In my opinion there has never been so much contraversy in the ring with a fighter than Ali and referee's seemed to be starstruck and would forget the rules when he fought. When it all comes down to it I would put him into the top ten.I mean let's be honest do you think he would be able to lye on the ropes and play patty cake with Lennox Lewis a 6'5" 245lb fighter who destroy's people with one right hand.Sure we laugh at Lennox and talk about his chin but have you seen any heavyweight champion get hit with any of the right hands that Lennox got knocked out with. So my answer is no about Ali he was great fighter but certainly not the greatest.
Ever been hit by a flash knockdown?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
By the way Ali was 6'1/6'2 205 to 230
A real light weight right?
Oh come off it they done a programme about Liston vs Ali 2, and they had this computer programming gear or whatever it was, that showed you where the exact punch landed, and it was nothing more than a grazing shot on the cheek. I totally understand about flash knockdowns but we aren't talk about flush punches on the chin, temple, nose, etc. We are talking about a grazing arm punch on the cheek.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyEver been hit by a flash knockdown?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
By the way Ali was 6'1/6'2 205 to 230
A real light weight right?
Ali was 6'3-6'4 and 220-225Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
...I hear he also walked on water because a white man told him he couldn't and then he jumped over the Empire State Building and during the Global Cooling scare of the 1960's Ali warmed our hearts by cheering up a kid with cancer.
Sorry I'm a little put out with this "Ali is the greatest" mainly because #1 I don't share that view and #2 I am berated for not sharing that view #3 other boxers did good stuff even GREAT stuff, Joe Louis got black people playing golf on the PGA tour and got Jackie Robinson out of being court martialed so if not for Joe Louis then maybe no Jackie Robinson and no Tiger Woods.
Oh come of it yourselfQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBOh come off it they done a programme about Liston vs Ali 2, and they had this computer programming gear or whatever it was, that showed you where the exact punch landed, and it was nothing more than a grazing shot on the cheek. I totally understand about flash knockdowns but we aren't talk about flush punches on the chin, temple, nose, etc. We are talking about a grazing arm punch on the cheek.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyEver been hit by a flash knockdown?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
By the way Ali was 6'1/6'2 205 to 230
A real light weight right?
A) Ali himself didnt think it was a clean knockdown,he stood over him screaming "Get up and fight"
B) That part of your jaw is one of the easiest knockdown point,way easier then your temple or your nose,theres a nerve that runs there that if it gets tweeked,you go down