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big calzaghe fan and have followed him through thick and thin.
But even i know a prime RJJ would whoop him into next week.
On his day jones jr was something real special, the closest your going to get to a complete fighter that has it all (apart from a chin as demonstrated in the johnson fight)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Ray Robinson is the most complete fighter, Roy of the last 20yrs imo.
Ray Robinson was far from a complete fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Ray Robinson is the most complete fighter, Roy of the last 20yrs imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyRay Robinson was far from a complete fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Ray Robinson is the most complete fighter, Roy of the last 20yrs imo.
What would you say Robinson lacked? and if there is a more complete packadge tell me.
I like Willie Pep but he had no power and Ali of the mid 60s at heavyweight was pretty complete.
There were a few important flaws in Robinson.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyRay Robinson was far from a complete fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
What would you say Robinson lacked? and if there is a more complete packadge tell me.
I like Willie Pep but he had no power and Ali of the mid 60s at heavyweight was pretty complete.
We could actually start a thread about this and we could rattle out a good debate, but I'm just about to finish work.
If you are here to ask me again tomorrow I'll explain the logic behind my statement.
As for a more complete fighter.
Off the top of my head Pernell Whittaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyRay Robinson was far from a complete fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
What would you say Robinson lacked? and if there is a more complete packadge tell me.
I like Willie Pep but he had no power and Ali of the mid 60s at heavyweight was pretty complete.
The problem is unless your old as dirt you wouldn't have seen a prime Robinson, because there is no footage of him at Welterweight. I think these fighters had the complete package.
Salvador Sanchez
Alexis Arguello
Ricardo Lopez
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Roy Jones Jr
Pernell Whitaker
Just a quick list but i consider those fighters to have the complete package.
From what i have seen which is a slightly off peak Robinson its the best, Heart, Power, speed, Chin, Desire, Footwork.
I agree Pernell is a great fighter but he lacks power.
Fuk it i`ll start a thread.
Roy was great but he was by no means a complete fighter... He had athletisism that this sport had never seen before him..Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBQuote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
What would you say Robinson lacked? and if there is a more complete packadge tell me.
I like Willie Pep but he had no power and Ali of the mid 60s at heavyweight was pretty complete.
The problem is unless your old as dirt you wouldn't have seen a prime Robinson, because there is no footage of him at Welterweight. I think these fighters had the complete package.
Salvador Sanchez
Alexis Arguello
Ricardo Lopez
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Roy Jones Jr
Pernell Whitaker
Just a quick list but i consider those fighters to have the complete package.
Jones wasnt textbook fundamentals and technical ability with his offense or drfense.. If Roy worked on fundamentals 1st and Athletsism 2nd like Floyd does he would have never been sparked by Tarver.. It has taken Jones a few years to evolve into a better pure Boxer now that his reflexes have diminished he seems comfortable in the ring again and has 2 great fights left in him
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockRoy was great but he was by no means a complete fighter... He had athletisism that this sport had never seen before him..Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBQuote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
The problem is unless your old as dirt you wouldn't have seen a prime Robinson, because there is no footage of him at Welterweight. I think these fighters had the complete package.
Salvador Sanchez
Alexis Arguello
Ricardo Lopez
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Roy Jones Jr
Pernell Whitaker
Just a quick list but i consider those fighters to have the complete package.
Jones wasnt textbook fundamentals and technical ability with his offense or drfense.. If Roy worked on fundamentals 1st and Athletsism 2nd like Floyd does he would have never been sparked by Tarver.. It has taken Jones a few years to evolve into a better pure Boxer now that his reflexes have diminished he seems comfortable in the ring again and has 2 great fights left in him
You can also say that if Roy had been fundamentally sound eg had an effective jab it would have made him more orthadox and not the great unorthadox fighter he was.
I think you slightly misunderstood what i meant JT i meant just attribute wise he is a complete fighter like, Power, Speed, Slickness, Footwork etc. Never would i make out he is a textbook fighter because he isn't, all the time i've been boxing i've never tried anything that Jones Jr does because he is a one off and we might never see another Roy Jones Jr in our life time, but i agree Mayweather Jr is a textbook complete fighter and at Super Featherweight he had the power which made him even more dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockRoy was great but he was by no means a complete fighter... He had athletisism that this sport had never seen before him..Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBQuote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
The problem is unless your old as dirt you wouldn't have seen a prime Robinson, because there is no footage of him at Welterweight. I think these fighters had the complete package.
Salvador Sanchez
Alexis Arguello
Ricardo Lopez
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Roy Jones Jr
Pernell Whitaker
Just a quick list but i consider those fighters to have the complete package.
Jones wasnt textbook fundamentals and technical ability with his offense or drfense.. If Roy worked on fundamentals 1st and Athletsism 2nd like Floyd does he would have never been sparked by Tarver.. It has taken Jones a few years to evolve into a better pure Boxer now that his reflexes have diminished he seems comfortable in the ring again and has 2 great fights left in him
Imagine a textbook Roy... My God it wouldnt ever been close with anybody... The amount of natural ability that man has is baffling... Like I staed already even if he was weight drained and suffering with the weight loss from Heavy, if he was a better technical Boxer he would have been able to compensate for his deterioration and would have never been KO'D by Johnson or TarverQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBI think you slightly misunderstood what i meant JT i meant just attribute wise he is a complete fighter like, Power, Speed, Slickness, Footwork etc. Never would i make out he is a textbook fighter because he isn't, all the time i've been boxing i've never tried anything that Jones Jr does because he is a one off and we might never see another Roy Jones Jr in our life time, but i agree Mayweather Jr is a textbook complete fighter and at Super Featherweight he had the power which made him even more dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockRoy was great but he was by no means a complete fighter... He had athletisism that this sport had never seen before him..Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Jones wasnt textbook fundamentals and technical ability with his offense or drfense.. If Roy worked on fundamentals 1st and Athletsism 2nd like Floyd does he would have never been sparked by Tarver.. It has taken Jones a few years to evolve into a better pure Boxer now that his reflexes have diminished he seems comfortable in the ring again and has 2 great fights left in him
Perhaps but with blinding speed, power and rediculous reflexes, would have never been a fair fight with anyoneQuote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by JT RockRoy was great but he was by no means a complete fighter... He had athletisism that this sport had never seen before him..Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Jones wasnt textbook fundamentals and technical ability with his offense or drfense.. If Roy worked on fundamentals 1st and Athletsism 2nd like Floyd does he would have never been sparked by Tarver.. It has taken Jones a few years to evolve into a better pure Boxer now that his reflexes have diminished he seems comfortable in the ring again and has 2 great fights left in him
You can also say that if Roy had been fundamentally sound eg had an effective jab it would have made him more orthadox and not the great unorthadox fighter he was.
Yes that is a scary thought JT i think in his own mind he still thinks he is the old RJJ, but age catches up with everyone and i would love him to get more technical in his approach. Although i do think he is somewhat on his way there, if you noticed in his last few fights he has been holding his hands higher, and throwing good accurate shots and not throwing as many lunging shots. I think fighters like JMM and FMJ could easily carry on until there 40 and still have good wins against top opposition, because of how good there technical skills are. Look at Hopkins he used to be a very aggressive fighter in his early days of being champion, but he adjusted and he can still be competitive with fighters like Calzaghe who is a top 3 P4P fighter, quite incredible isn't it ??Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockImagine a textbook Roy... My God it wouldnt ever been close with anybody... The amount of natural ability that man has is baffling... Like I staed already even if he was weight drained and suffering with the weight loss from Heavy, if he was a better technical Boxer he would have been able to compensate for his deterioration and would have never been KO'D by Johnson or TarverQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBI think you slightly misunderstood what i meant JT i meant just attribute wise he is a complete fighter like, Power, Speed, Slickness, Footwork etc. Never would i make out he is a textbook fighter because he isn't, all the time i've been boxing i've never tried anything that Jones Jr does because he is a one off and we might never see another Roy Jones Jr in our life time, but i agree Mayweather Jr is a textbook complete fighter and at Super Featherweight he had the power which made him even more dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
By the way Markus if you watched Vinny Pazineza fight you can see in that fight how great Jones was when he used his jab.
I pick Jones but it wouldn't be an easy fight for him. Nowhere near as easy as the 'Jones inside 5' predictions on here. I think he'd win a UD.
I actually think Jones has a chance beating him now. I don't seem him being as shot as people make out. He lost a lot of weight after the Ruiz fight and he got ko'd twice. That experience obviously altered him as a fighter. He isn't as fast (altho stil faster than Calzaghe) as he used to be and he doesn't seem to be as active, but he's still very capable of putting on a performance.
When you get to the level that Jones got to, it's impossible to lose the talent that got him there. Obviously different fighters peak at different times. Jones obviously peaked a very long time ago, but the talent is still there. It's just a question of wether he is mentally and physically strong enough. A fight against Calzaghe is a very big incentive for Jones to go all out for the win. I woudn't be surprised if he managed it.
:coolclick: Yoko! spot on my friend... I feel the same way, I think Jones has plenty in the tank and has evolved as a fighter to make adjustments to compensate for his diminished skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by ono
I agree with this (not read most of the thread, can imagine a lot of shit slinging about). I'm undecided who'll win this year, I think both guys have slipped a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
As for prime, Jones was special and I'd pick him to win a wide UD against a prime Joe, noting that prime Joe would probably be his toughest opponent.
It's tough to gauge prime, as there best performances don't necasarily coincide with their actual prime. There best performances usually come against the best opponent for their style (good example is Tyson-Spinks). While Joe's best performance was against Lacy, I feel he had already slipped physically, however the challenge brought an extra focus to his game, which could have been pretty special if the Joe of 4/5 years earlier could have had the opponent to bring the best focus out of him.
I think Roy's prime is easier to spot, it was probably at 168 circa Toney fight. Roy suffers in the eyes of many since he was almost too good, opponents are often classed as off their game or just never any good since he made them look that way.
Wow... 40-7. This has to be one of the most lopsided polls I've seen here in awhile.
It's actually 41-6! Someone earlier said they clicked on the wrong name!
I totally agree with both of you I think that Jones would probably win a very wide UD or joes father may take pity on a badly beaten Joe and pull him out. The only thing I don't quite agree with is I thought that Jones peaked at light heavy in his rematch with Griffin I thought that the focus, speed and punch power in that fight were absolutely amazing and it is my favourite 1st round KO ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by BompI agree with this (not read most of the thread, can imagine a lot of shit slinging about). I'm undecided who'll win this year, I think both guys have slipped a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
As for prime, Jones was special and I'd pick him to win a wide UD against a prime Joe, noting that prime Joe would probably be his toughest opponent.
It's tough to gauge prime, as there best performances don't necasarily coincide with their actual prime. There best performances usually come against the best opponent for their style (good example is Tyson-Spinks). While Joe's best performance was against Lacy, I feel he had already slipped physically, however the challenge brought an extra focus to his game, which could have been pretty special if the Joe of 4/5 years earlier could have had the opponent to bring the best focus out of him.
I think Roy's prime is easier to spot, it was probably at 168 circa Toney fight. Roy suffers in the eyes of many since he was almost too good, opponents are often classed as off their game or just never any good since he made them look that way.
You think this is Roys best performance?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1Khb...eature=related
He missed shots, stumbled because he was off balance, got caught with plenty of jabs and left hooks and all this from someone who is a few inchs shorter and a quite a bit slower.
Ok Jones showed some power but again his opponent is letting him work at his own pace, Joe would push him and if Montell can out Jab Roy then Calzaghe would be spearing his face all night;D
He left himself more open than usual because he had a lot of frustration bulit up and needed to unleash it on Griffin which he did. But if you read what I said it said how impressed with his focus, power and speed I was.never mentioned anything about his defence as he didnt need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Someone has already said they hope to god that Jones beats Calzaghe.
Thats not confidence in a fighter that some are still saying here should still have too much for Calzaghe, Roy aint Hopkins, he doesnt know how to slow a pace and spoil and Calzaghe aint a faded fat welter.
Roy may have had more pomp in his day but he still had the same frailties that inferior opponents couldnt expose, mainly he can be outhustled, no one could fight at the pace Joe can and with his accuracy.
You will see Roy trying to grab like Hopkins to slow the pace and ruin Joe rythm
Or Roy landing more cleaner harder shots flooring Joe and still lose to the guy throwing flurries at the arms and shoulders .And the other guy come away with another undeserved victory. It happened a few times for Joe already. Hell Roy will bet fuct if he doesnt knock this pamper champ out.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Roy aint knocked anyone out since around the time he was caught for taking steroids;D
Joe outworked Hopkins while Bernard hid and skirted around the ropes between crying about pretend low blows;D and cuddling Joe
Joe will slap and arm punch his way to another pointless victory over an old American.
Pavlik would be a much better fight, hopefully Pavlik and Abraham fight and Joe is forced in to facing the winner, although he will be due a loss by then, I think Kessler was the pinnacle, Joe just wants to add some names
Actually, if I may... the title of the thread is: "Prime Calzaghe vs Prime Jones Jr. who wins?"
Jones is probably a bit further removed from his prime than Calzaghe is from his, so yeah... a fight now would probably be a bit more competitive than had they both been in their primes.
Roy would play it safe for a few and test and feel what Calzage had to offer from a safe point with lots of bend and movment into angles Joe hadn't seen before. Then he would remove himself from that safe point he was fighting from behind and come out in between the spaces he has timed and out manovere Joe into frustration at which point he could end it late and safe.
i'm just curious on those who voted for Calzaghe to actually post on how they actually think he would win
Eric Harding, a light punching nobody, made Jones scared just by doing nothing. If he hadn't given up because a bicep injury he maby would have won. Bogus.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBMcCallum was actually 39 years old stop reading off boxrec, and secondly he had some great performances at Light Heavyweight and didn't he give James Toney a tough fight after the Jones fight ?? so that proved he was still a good fighter, Virgil Hill had only lost to two fighters at that time, Thomas Hearns and he gave Hearns a good argument and Dariusz, who is one of the best Light Heavyweights of all time, didn't he make 22 title defenses ?? and wasn't Jones the only man to KO Hill ?? Castro was not fought between 97 03 ?? what does that mean ?? all i know is that Castro was a solid tough fighter who had 70+ fights at the time, and went on to have some good victories.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Mike McCallum 40yo 154lb fighter
Virgil Hill coming off a loss
Jorge Castro was not fought betweenm 97-03
Fighters like:
Lou De Vale
Otis Grant
Richard frazier
David Telesco
Richard Hall (Roids)
Eric Harding
Derrick Harmon
Glenn Kelly
All fighters that did not belong in the ring with him, both Hopkins and Calzaghes resume between 97-03 dwarfs Jones hell Otkkes does.
He had a few good fights against good fighters the rest were not in his league.
Lou Del Valle was a good fighter his only loss prior to his fight with Jones was a close decision loss to Virgil Hill, Harding was a good fighter how the hell did he not belong in the ring with Jones ?? he was just coming off beating Antonio Tarver. They others aren't great i'll admit but Jones did fight many good/great fighters and beat them well, and i listed them above. Are you kidding me ?? regarding your last statement ?? lets compare there records to 1997 to 2003 then.
Jones best wins 1997 to 2003.
Montell Griffin
Reggie Johnson
Lou Del Valle
Eric Harding
Clinton Woods
Antonio Tarver
John Ruiz = accomplishment hadn't be done in 106 years.
Calzaghe's best wins 1997 to 2003, you slated Jones's opposition so now i'll give you some facts regarding Calzaghe's opposition.
Chris Eubank = Badly weight drained only had 1 week to prepare.
Robin Reid = Coming off a loss to 40+ Thulani Malinga.
Omar Sheika = Lost to a fighter with a bad losing record, got a robbery win against Glen Johnson.
Richie Woodhall = Coming off a loss to to Markus Beyer who had Woodhall on the canvas 3 times, and lets remember Beyer is a powderpuff hitter 35 wins 13 KO's.
Charles Brewer = Coming off a loss to Antwun Echols.
Byron Mitchell = Coming off a loss to Sven Ottke and recently struggled against Manny Siaca twice who had a record of 14-2.
McCallum? The guy was 39 and had a belly like he was in 5-month of pregnancy.
Virgil Hill was a decent fighter, but a light punching technician who was a bad match (from his point of view) for Jones. And who did he hang well with? Tommy Hearns? The guy was 40 and five divisions up from his original welterweight.
Lou del Valle? please! Is this the guy that lost to Bruno Girard?
The only reason why he did become the first Heavyweight champion that started from middleweight, in 106 years, is because he fought the worst heavyweight champion in 106 years. And when Lennox Lewis was mentioned Jones lost 20 pounds out of shear fear, so he was forced to go back to light-heavyweight. The only two honorable mentions on his record are James Toney ( a great win that made him famous 9 and Bernard Hopkins who was one dimensional at the time. He later offered to fight Jones on many occasions but Jones backed out. There are plenty of fighters who could have dominated their respective divisions making fools out of lesser opponents (Molsey, de la Hoya, Barrera) but they took up challenges and sometimes lost. Is being a cautious/chicken good thing these days.
Good points and this where Calzaghe has proved his worth, after 10 years of being champ he took on his most dangerous opponent in Kessler.
Mikkel was in his twenties at the top of his game, was a unified champ and alot of people thought that with all Kesslers plus's and Joes age and time at the top that it was gonna be Joes turn to lose but he proved he is a great by piissing all over Kessler.
Jones aint got a hope in hell of beating Calzaghe, in fact I give him a genuinely better chance of beating Sam Peter than Joe Calzaghe;)
first off stop overating Kessler, he is a good fighter but had never faced anyone of worth before Calzaghe to be considered the great your making him out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Jones doesn't have a chance in hell ?? at age 39 his chances are small and i expect Calzaghe to outwork Jones to a UD, one thing is for sure though Calzaghe should consider himself lucky that this isn't a prime Jones because Jones would of whipped him bad.
I can't beleive how many pages are in this thread...It's such a wind up...whenever a VS thread is made with RJJ.
RJJ always wins. Personally myself i'm a detracter for Roy..he did some great things and looked Great caining heads but it's impossible to have a conversion about him because as far are most are concerned he is undefeatable in his prime(wich is probably true)
He would beat Calzaghe...It can't be denied...But is there any need to ridicule calzaghe's achivements to make that point?
Well, depending how bad Calzaghe beats up on Jones we may get a guage of how bad he would have beat him back when Jones was a supermiddle;D
jones probaly a shouout
Jones could win this one even at 39 he is better than Lacy slicker than Kessler and has more speed and power than Hopkins Calzaghe could have made a mistake here i hope so.;);D
Hope is what Jones needs;D
some good rep is what you need;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
What is all this good rep thing?
Are people that bothered?
Im not gonna agree with rubbish to get good rep.:rolleyes:;D
So far, in this thread ive read opinions on how Jones would smash Calzaghe and he would still have too much now and then I see people praying and hoping to god that Jon es can win;D;D;D
Its one thing saying all this craap, its another believing it;D
Calzaghe has never lost let alone been put to sleep Twice;D
My sincerist wish, is that guys like you Ross stick around and face the music when Jones wins;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
can you point out who said the present day Jones would handle him easy ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Ok, no one said easy but they are still saying he will have too much and int he same breath hoping and praying.
Joe may not have beaten everyone in history but he would have certainly given em a fight like no one else, he has very good stamina and acuracy, I remember Mitchell saying hed "never been hit so hard so fast so often"
Joe would have given Toney big problems, watch this clip with Reggie Johnson, he doesnt seem to be able to keep outta the way of southpaw lefts and when hes on the ropes, you know Joe woulda been landing alot more on target.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFjQAgLDQ1w