US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu apprentice

They were in The United States of America .....is that not a good enough reason?


The idea of kicking these students out of school for wearing American flag t-shirts is 100% against everything The United States is about because the boys wearing the t-shirts did not prevent the people from celebrating Cinco de Mayo and THAT my friend is the bottom line....free speech isn't always nice and pleasant and fun, but sometimes a t-shirt is just a t-shirt and in this case an American from ANY ethnic group should be outraged that this happened.

I also find it highly offensive that the illegal immigrants wave Mexican flags when they protest immigration policy....that's just fucking idiotic, but I don't think just because they wave the Mexican flag that they should be thrown out of the country just on account of the flag thing.

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To be fair, I see your point.

But it's still a difficult situation to handle when its pretty clear that these boys knew they were going to cause trouble before they went into school with their own definition of 'uniform'.

But then I accept, of course, the fact that this raises the question of whether or not this was an act of co-patriotism or indeed counter-patriotism.

Obviously teachers in this day and age are far too consumed with national curriculum & political correctness to really delve into correcting or aligning social issues as complex as this and therefore yes maybe they are guilty of simply copping out for an easy solution.

But can you not accept that there is usually a pattern to these proceedings? I mean, you must see that it is HIGHLY unlikely (as even you have proven yourself) that these kids are able to fully comprehend total passive patriotism. Its always ''get one up, get one back, we'll show em, fuck em, bomb em''.... Like I say, there is usually a pattern to these proceedings. But i'll accept that the teaches took the easy option.

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu apprentice

They were in The United States of America .....is that not a good enough reason?


The idea of kicking these students out of school for wearing American flag t-shirts is 100% against everything The United States is about because the boys wearing the t-shirts did not prevent the people from celebrating Cinco de Mayo and THAT my friend is the bottom line....free speech isn't always nice and pleasant and fun, but sometimes a t-shirt is just a t-shirt and in this case an American from ANY ethnic group should be outraged that this happened.

I also find it highly offensive that the illegal immigrants wave Mexican flags when they protest immigration policy....that's just fucking idiotic, but I don't think just because they wave the Mexican flag that they should be thrown out of the country just on account of the flag thing.

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Illegal immigrants protest the immigration policy? In what way? How you do know they're illegal? Why would an illegal immigrant bring attention to himself in this sort of way? Correct me if i'm wrong, but that doesn't sound right.

The reason the kids were sent home (not thrown out of school) for the day was because the t-shirts were seen as provocative because they didn't wear them on any other day. I know it's their right to wear whatever they like, but at the same time, choosing to wear a certain garment purely to provoke a reaction is wrong, and it could have caused problems. It's an incredibly twatish thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

There is some tensions, sometimes when drunktards from both "clan" meet there are fighting but really, it is more of a big rivalry and because some laws are unfair for the French natives, it is far from being close to the unthinkable like the ethnic war going on in Iraq or the Kurdish case in Turkey. In a nutshell: French discovered Canada first, English came then, both used some native tribes to help their side, they slammed each others on the head, France did stop to help its colonies, not England, French lost and at the time, English quite tried to assimilate them by force.
The biggest modern problem is that Quebec gives more to the Country proportionally than any other provinces, which angers French Canadians, our current Nuts Prime Minister corrected partly the problem by re-giving a part of it (which the other Federal Gov always denied us) and some things are just weighted with 2 measures: For example, legally speaking, the Country has officially recognized both languages, French and English as our official ones. Normally, we are supposed to be able to receive health cares and any primal services in both languages. This is only true in Quebec and in a very few town in the North of Ontario. Institutions in Quebec receive the stick every time somebody is not answered in a clean cut English if they make a complaint but in the rest of Canada, it is almost impossible to have essential services in French, even in Toronto you can absolutely forget it but the gov doesn't do nothing about it. Same for the Army, before the official army manual was in both languages, now they did cut the french version to save money and it's only in English. When every official stuff are supposed to be both released in french and English, it's quite a slap. Air Carrier Air Canada has been found guilty many times of not having at least one member of the crew speaking french on board, every time they babble about giving formations to their employees so it would not happen again but the problem doesn't change, really.

There is a couple of other situations like that and that's mostly where the modern conflicts and tension emerges, that coupled with the fact that in Montreal, there is a very wealthy English community living on West Island and some of them never learned french and said they didn't have to because the country was foremost English and that French wasn't important and that there is no reasons why they should speak it. One of them Galganov even wrote a book called "Bastards" where basically, he's spitting hatred against French Canadians... Mix it all together and you have a bit of electricity when it comes to politics discussions. However, I would say that for the huge majority on both side, we're living very well together, really. Personally I am not for the separation of Quebec from the rest of Canada, I just think that some things should be made fairer for the french natives (like for the proportion of money given and the bilingual stuff) and that we should call these rivalry a day... except when the Montreal Canadians are playing the Leafs, of course ;) If you cut the bunch of nutters on both side and do not mix politics when it's election time or national holidays, it's not that bad at all really, everywhere I went and met some Canadians on vacations it has always been a good time, just don't mix the nutters who think that french Canadians are extreme potential terrorists and the others that see english speakers as potential enemies and it's all ok.

p.s: Sometihng interesting: Quebec provincial rules are far different from the rest of those in the Country as they are a mix of the Napoleon Code and the English Common law, which is unique to the Province.

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I am very grateful for this post. Most informative!!

I definitely find it remarkable that the French & English have managed to form any kind of co-existence given our history.

are those kids wearing the OLD NAVY shirts? just asking..

Jesus, what happened to the site? I stayed away for a few days because this thread made me a little bit mad and I didn't understand why I was being labelled a racist. I tried quoting Bilbo's post but this new system is weird and I wasn't sure it would reply properly so I will just do it like this instead. I'm glad to see that he doesn't think I am a racist because I am not and never have been. It's not in my mindset to hate on people because of a skin tone. He says that my argument is petty and he is entitled to that view and I'm not so upset by that. I still don't think it should be a problem that the kids wore the shirts though, certainly not on on the theoretical level, after all a shirt is just a shirt and what is so offensive about the American flag on this particular day? I just don't see the offense in that.

I'm not a nationalist, but I do believe in the freedom to wear what you like. It's a simple argument and I am sticking with it. I just cannot get upset by someone else wearing their own flag colours. It's not something I would do myself, but I could never get upset by others doing it.

My deportation comment was perhaps a bit harsh in retrospect and rash too, but my point was that if you are going to live in another culture you need to try and respect that culture too. You can't be getting too upset by native kids wearing their own colours. If it is an act of provocation then you need to rise above it, it's only a flag.

it's a bit of cloth. get over it

I've no idea if this is going to quote things correctly as it's my first time trying it properly, but well said Nameless. This is pretty much the way I am seeing the story too.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

To answer Amat and Bilbo and Jaz's last argument:

1) Some peoples are coming to the st-Jean Baptiste parade with Canadian flags for various reasons, one being sometimes to show that historically, the french got their rear end kicked by the english an some do it as a gesture of protest against the idea that Quebec might split from Canada someday (which is what many french Canadian wants). Peoples have deeply the right to express their feelings and opinions, if they wage a flag they do not hurt me, if they say an insult they are idiot but I am even dumber if I fire back with violence, period.

2) These kids, if they did just wear american stuff didn't do nothing wrong if expressing that they are in the U.S and to remind the others celebrating their national holiday that they were still living in the US, to me, there is nothing deeply wrong with it, could a bit provocative but as long as they didn't act aggressively or did something hurtful to the mexican culture (burning a flag, stomping a Mexican icon etc), is walks the thin line.

3) article 19 of the human right chart stipulates about the freedom of speech (which is good everywhere normally) and they didn't trespassed any borders if they just showed pacifically their beliefs. It is also in line with every rules of the first amendment guaranteed by the US chart. These rights apply as well in a school, by the way. If they did their stuff pacifically and haven't been aggressive, even if it is not entirely ethically correct perhaps to do so it was still within the limits of decency. Their demonstration wasn't racist, it wasn't violent, it didn't stop peoples from celebrating, In these circumstances, I really do not see the problem. Wearing flags for no reason is lame, sure, but shouldn't be forbidden for such kind of events.

4) to Jaz, the Ben Laden argument is not very good in my opinion because there is a difference between wearing the flag from the country you're in and displaying a mass murderer who threats to annihilate every american citizens using any means available. This is just not the same kind of symbol neither provocation at all.

5) If the kids would have been aggressive, violent or destroying any kind of mexican icons, that would be all another kind of story.

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we still talking about this?

Not even the kid that got sent home for wearing the shirt will remember it by now!!

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Originally Posted by miles

Jesus, what happened to the site? I stayed away for a few days because this thread made me a little bit mad and I didn't understand why I was being labelled a racist. I tried quoting Bilbo's post but this new system is weird and I wasn't sure it would reply properly so I will just do it like this instead. I'm glad to see that he doesn't think I am a racist because I am not and never have been. It's not in my mindset to hate on people because of a skin tone. He says that my argument is petty and he is entitled to that view and I'm not so upset by that. I still don't think it should be a problem that the kids wore the shirts though, certainly not on on the theoretical level, after all a shirt is just a shirt and what is so offensive about the American flag on this particular day? I just don't see the offense in that.

I'm not a nationalist, but I do believe in the freedom to wear what you like. It's a simple argument and I am sticking with it. I just cannot get upset by someone else wearing their own flag colours. It's not something I would do myself, but I could never get upset by others doing it.

My deportation comment was perhaps a bit harsh in retrospect and rash too, but my point was that if you are going to live in another culture you need to try and respect that culture too. You can't be getting too upset by native kids wearing their own colours. If it is an act of provocation then you need to rise above it, it's only a flag.

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I don't think you're a racist at all Miles I was just making a point of excercising my freedom of speech to call you names!

For me the issue is nothing to do with nationalism, patriotism, freedom of speech, liberties or anything else. It's simply a case of a school day being organised to celebrate something important to many people at the school and a small group of twats trying to be antagonistic about it. It's just like bullying really.

Forget about race and look at other similar scenarios and it makes more sense. Imagine the school had a lot of special needs students and they put on a sports day for them or something and a group of kids turned up with tshirts with pictures of mongs on the front, they would be told to remove them and stop being so mean.

Or if there was a 'Bring a parent to school day' where they come in and talk about their jobs and some kids put some t-shirts with slogans making jokes about certain jobs that many dads in the school do, or comments about those whose parent's left them or something, again it would just be a disruptive, mean, nasty thing to do.

Dizaster's own exmple was great, wearing a tshirt with a Vietnames woman with a machine gun to her head when the Japanese exchange students came to his school. Again just a cuntish thing to do.

I don't see why people are making this a patriotic or nationalistic issue when it's nothing to do with that. It was just a group of kids being twats and wanting to show another group of kids they weren't accepted.

Schools HAVE to outlaw bullying, and if the principle thought this could be construed as such (and it's not hard to see why) then he took the appropriate steps to stamp it out.

All he did was tell them if they didn't take them off they would be sent home for the afternoon. And these dickish kids were clearly just looking for trouble as they chose to go home.

Now their parents are planning to sue the school? For what?

It's fucking ridiculous and and it just makes me angry that these kinds of asshole people are out there, just trying to make a petty point and arguing for the sake of arguing, and of course clearly hoping to make a nice tidy sum of money in damages from it.

If they do sue I hope it gets rejected and they have to pay costs.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

Jesus, what happened to the site? I stayed away for a few days because this thread made me a little bit mad and I didn't understand why I was being labelled a racist. I tried quoting Bilbo's post but this new system is weird and I wasn't sure it would reply properly so I will just do it like this instead. I'm glad to see that he doesn't think I am a racist because I am not and never have been. It's not in my mindset to hate on people because of a skin tone. He says that my argument is petty and he is entitled to that view and I'm not so upset by that. I still don't think it should be a problem that the kids wore the shirts though, certainly not on on the theoretical level, after all a shirt is just a shirt and what is so offensive about the American flag on this particular day? I just don't see the offense in that.

I'm not a nationalist, but I do believe in the freedom to wear what you like. It's a simple argument and I am sticking with it. I just cannot get upset by someone else wearing their own flag colours. It's not something I would do myself, but I could never get upset by others doing it.

My deportation comment was perhaps a bit harsh in retrospect and rash too, but my point was that if you are going to live in another culture you need to try and respect that culture too. You can't be getting too upset by native kids wearing their own colours. If it is an act of provocation then you need to rise above it, it's only a flag.

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I don't think you're a racist at all Miles I was just making a point of excercising my freedom of speech to call you names!

For me the issue is nothing to do with nationalism, patriotism, freedom of speech, liberties or anything else. It's simply a case of a school day being organised to celebrate something important to many people at the school and a small group of twats trying to be antagonistic about it. It's just like bullying really.

Forget about race and look at other similar scenarios and it makes more sense. Imagine the school had a lot of special needs students and they put on a sports day for them or something and a group of kids turned up with tshirts with pictures of mongs on the front, they would be told to remove them and stop being so mean.

Or if there was a 'Bring a parent to school day' where they come in and talk about their jobs and some kids put some t-shirts with slogans making jokes about certain jobs that many dads in the school do, or comments about those whose parent's left them or something, again it would just be a disruptive, mean, nasty thing to do.

Dizaster's own exmple was great, wearing a tshirt with a Vietnames woman with a machine gun to her head when the Japanese exchange students came to his school. Again just a cuntish thing to do.

I don't see why people are making this a patriotic or nationalistic issue when it's nothing to do with that. It was just a group of kids being twats and wanting to show another group of kids they weren't accepted.

Schools HAVE to outlaw bullying, and if the principle thought this could be construed as such (and it's not hard to see why) then he took the appropriate steps to stamp it out.

All he did was tell them if they didn't take them off they would be sent home for the afternoon. And these dickish kids were clearly just looking for trouble as they chose to go home.

Now their parents are planning to sue the school? For what?

It's fucking ridiculous and and it just makes me angry that these kinds of asshole people are out there, just trying to make a petty point and arguing for the sake of arguing, and of course clearly hoping to make a nice tidy sum of money in damages from it.

If they do sue I hope it gets rejected and they have to pay costs.

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Yeah, the racist thing got under my skin at that point in time and I kind of sat back and thought "woah, I've been called a racist when I had no idea we were even talking about racism". Of course, I can see that racism might have been a point festering underneath it all in the actual story, but that is not how I looked at it when arguing my points. I took it as an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate to natives whether they can wear their own colours or not and in it's own way it is. I mean, can you honestly tell me where the offense is in wearing US flag colours on this particular holiday? From what I can gather this had nothing to do with American domination. Therefore, I struggle to see the issue with America in this instance. I find it strange that these students were so affronted by this behaviour. Now if it were Afghan students or Iraqi students I could really empathise, because I think American colonialism and brutality has been quite blatant, but to the Mexicans in this particular instance? I really struggle to see it.

I see your arguments and you put them across well. I can understand that it is a school and the peace needs to be kept, but I struggle to see why these Mexican kids couldn't contain themselves enough to just get through their schoolday and go home. It's just a day of the year and they are being allowed to celebrate their day. I find it hard to believe that these US shirts in the USA were really that big a deal to these immigrant kids who have been provided with decent lives in the very same country. And as I said why is America so wrong on this particular day, I struggle to see it.

If the American kids were trying to beat up the Mexican kids then it is bullying, but as it stands it's no more to me than a crowd of Everton shirt wearers having to walk down a street passing a handful of people in Liverpool shirts. Rise up and move beyond, it isn't so hard. It all seems so silly to me.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

Actually, I disagree with the kids being kicked out from school. Sure maybe it was provocation, which is not correct, however, it wasn't like if they did burn a Mexican flag or something, they were wearing the flag of their country in their country! In Canada for those who might not know it, we have 2 national holiday, June 24 and July 1st. July 24 is the national day for French part of Canada, la "St-Jean Baptiste", VERY popular here and I would even say by far far more than July first, you can't even compare it. How often do you think we've seen peoples in Montreal walking with Canadian flags when the whole rest of the province is walking with our blue and white on it only to provoke and ruin things? How many English native are doing so in the countryside where 95% of the kids speak french only to provoke things? It happens often. IT is not especially nice but it is the flag of our country as much as some might dislike it and till the opposite is proven, Quebec isn't independent yet from Canada. It is perhaps unnecessary provocation but you cannot throw a kid from school for that and I think that the same example is also valid for the Cinco de Mayo thing.

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I would assume that "by here" you mean in Quebec, because people don't celebrate it at all here. I couldn't have told you what date it was on or even the name of the holiday.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

Jesus, what happened to the site? I stayed away for a few days because this thread made me a little bit mad and I didn't understand why I was being labelled a racist. I tried quoting Bilbo's post but this new system is weird and I wasn't sure it would reply properly so I will just do it like this instead. I'm glad to see that he doesn't think I am a racist because I am not and never have been. It's not in my mindset to hate on people because of a skin tone. He says that my argument is petty and he is entitled to that view and I'm not so upset by that. I still don't think it should be a problem that the kids wore the shirts though, certainly not on on the theoretical level, after all a shirt is just a shirt and what is so offensive about the American flag on this particular day? I just don't see the offense in that.

I'm not a nationalist, but I do believe in the freedom to wear what you like. It's a simple argument and I am sticking with it. I just cannot get upset by someone else wearing their own flag colours. It's not something I would do myself, but I could never get upset by others doing it.

My deportation comment was perhaps a bit harsh in retrospect and rash too, but my point was that if you are going to live in another culture you need to try and respect that culture too. You can't be getting too upset by native kids wearing their own colours. If it is an act of provocation then you need to rise above it, it's only a flag.

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I don't think you're a racist at all Miles I was just making a point of excercising my freedom of speech to call you names!

For me the issue is nothing to do with nationalism, patriotism, freedom of speech, liberties or anything else. It's simply a case of a school day being organised to celebrate something important to many people at the school and a small group of twats trying to be antagonistic about it. It's just like bullying really.

Forget about race and look at other similar scenarios and it makes more sense. Imagine the school had a lot of special needs students and they put on a sports day for them or something and a group of kids turned up with tshirts with pictures of mongs on the front, they would be told to remove them and stop being so mean.

Or if there was a 'Bring a parent to school day' where they come in and talk about their jobs and some kids put some t-shirts with slogans making jokes about certain jobs that many dads in the school do, or comments about those whose parent's left them or something, again it would just be a disruptive, mean, nasty thing to do.

Dizaster's own exmple was great, wearing a tshirt with a Vietnames woman with a machine gun to her head when the Japanese exchange students came to his school. Again just a cuntish thing to do.

I don't see why people are making this a patriotic or nationalistic issue when it's nothing to do with that. It was just a group of kids being twats and wanting to show another group of kids they weren't accepted.

Schools HAVE to outlaw bullying, and if the principle thought this could be construed as such (and it's not hard to see why) then he took the appropriate steps to stamp it out.

All he did was tell them if they didn't take them off they would be sent home for the afternoon. And these dickish kids were clearly just looking for trouble as they chose to go home.

Now their parents are planning to sue the school? For what?

It's fucking ridiculous and and it just makes me angry that these kinds of asshole people are out there, just trying to make a petty point and arguing for the sake of arguing, and of course clearly hoping to make a nice tidy sum of money in damages from it.

If they do sue I hope it gets rejected and they have to pay costs.

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Yeah, the racist thing got under my skin at that point in time and I kind of sat back and thought "woah, I've been called a racist when I had no idea we were even talking about racism". Of course, I can see that racism might have been a point festering underneath it all in the actual story, but that is not how I looked at it when arguing my points. I took it as an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate to natives whether they can wear their own colours or not and in it's own way it is. I mean, can you honestly tell me where the offense is in wearing US flag colours on this particular holiday? From what I can gather this had nothing to do with American domination. Therefore, I struggle to see the issue with America in this instance. I find it strange that these students were so affronted by this behaviour. Now if it were Afghan students or Iraqi students I could really empathise, because I think American colonialism and brutality has been quite blatant, but to the Mexicans in this particular instance? I really struggle to see it.

I see your arguments and you put them across well. I can understand that it is a school and the peace needs to be kept, but I struggle to see why these Mexican kids couldn't contain themselves enough to just get through their schoolday and go home. It's just a day of the year and they are being allowed to celebrate their day. I find it hard to believe that these US shirts in the USA were really that big a deal to these immigrant kids who have been provided with decent lives in the very same country. And as I said why is America so wrong on this particular day, I struggle to see it.

If the American kids were trying to beat up the Mexican kids then it is bullying, but as it stands it's no more to me than a crowd of Everton shirt wearers having to walk down a street passing a handful of people in Liverpool shirts. Rise up and move beyond, it isn't so hard. It all seems so silly to me.

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As far as I can tell there is no indication that any 'ethnic minorities' asked the principle to send the boys home. I think it is suggestive of a general underlying hostility that many people have towards ethnic minorities they automatically make negative attachments to them in cases such as these. Looking at your own post where you say you took it as 'an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate....'. I mean why did you assume that it was the ethnic minorities who were in the wrong here? and then 'it is strange the students were affronted by this behaviour'.

From what I've read the principle acted on his own accord prophylactically to prevent any trouble, yet you automatically see the ethnic's being the trouble makers here, when it's clear that it was the American kids trying to make a point, not the Mexicans.

I imagine the American kids had that same underlying hostility as well. When they heard Cinci Di Mayo was being celebrated at their school it got their backs up and they wanted to make a show of protest by wearing their own flags. They might not be racist, it might just be jealously and general resentment which is so common throughout the world.

You see it on this forum with the comments directed frequently at me for being registered as sick due to disability. Although it's no fault of my own that I had cancer and almost died, there are still a few people on here who are bothered by the idea that someone can be supported by the state. It just angers them and it's no coincidence I think that those who dislike me the most on this forum clearly have that axe to grind again and again.

I do think in general certain people have a kind of passive aggressive attitude towards certain people, religions, sexual orientations, racial groups etc and so will always interperate stories about them in a negative way.

Not singling you out here, I think we all do it. Every single one of us has a view regarding all the various people groups in the world and it filters how they see the news accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

I'd love to research Canadian History because I know nothing about this country except it has some breathtaking scenery and that it's a bit like the USA only less violent and possibly a bit more articulated ???

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:rotflmao:

I know it wasn't your intention to be funny, but that made me grin a bit. Canada is just another country, no better or worse than any other (including the United States), we're just less significant.

Canada has some terrible things in it's history, the worst probably being the Residential School system.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

I'd love to research Canadian History because I know nothing about this country except it has some breathtaking scenery and that it's a bit like the USA only less violent and possibly a bit more articulated ???

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:rotflmao:

I know it wasn't your intention to be funny, but that made me grin a bit. Canada is just another country, no better or worse than any other (including the United States), we're just less significant.

Canada has some terrible things in it's history, the worst probably being the Residential School system.

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;D fair enough.

Terrible things like what? Im keen to learn.

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

I'd love to research Canadian History because I know nothing about this country except it has some breathtaking scenery and that it's a bit like the USA only less violent and possibly a bit more articulated ???

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:rotflmao:

I know it wasn't your intention to be funny, but that made me grin a bit. Canada is just another country, no better or worse than any other (including the United States), we're just less significant.

Canada has some terrible things in it's history, the worst probably being the Residential School system.

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;D fair enough.

Terrible things like what? Im keen to learn.

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This is actually a relatively tame discussion of the Residential Schools:

Canadian Indian residential school system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow.

Actually, no. Not wow... I'm only mildly surprised.... Just another country.... Still beautiful though.
Plus I still have faith that Canadians are nicer than Americans ;D

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

it's a bit of cloth. get over it

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So is the KKK hat :p

It's the fact that the lads have worn the t-shirts to make a statement that's the potential problem here. Yes they're entitled to wear whatever they want, but at the same time a bit of empathy wouldn't go a miss. In fact it's not even empathy. It's just 'don't be a twat.'

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

Jesus, what happened to the site? I stayed away for a few days because this thread made me a little bit mad and I didn't understand why I was being labelled a racist. I tried quoting Bilbo's post but this new system is weird and I wasn't sure it would reply properly so I will just do it like this instead. I'm glad to see that he doesn't think I am a racist because I am not and never have been. It's not in my mindset to hate on people because of a skin tone. He says that my argument is petty and he is entitled to that view and I'm not so upset by that. I still don't think it should be a problem that the kids wore the shirts though, certainly not on on the theoretical level, after all a shirt is just a shirt and what is so offensive about the American flag on this particular day? I just don't see the offense in that.

I'm not a nationalist, but I do believe in the freedom to wear what you like. It's a simple argument and I am sticking with it. I just cannot get upset by someone else wearing their own flag colours. It's not something I would do myself, but I could never get upset by others doing it.

My deportation comment was perhaps a bit harsh in retrospect and rash too, but my point was that if you are going to live in another culture you need to try and respect that culture too. You can't be getting too upset by native kids wearing their own colours. If it is an act of provocation then you need to rise above it, it's only a flag.

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I don't think you're a racist at all Miles I was just making a point of excercising my freedom of speech to call you names!

For me the issue is nothing to do with nationalism, patriotism, freedom of speech, liberties or anything else. It's simply a case of a school day being organised to celebrate something important to many people at the school and a small group of twats trying to be antagonistic about it. It's just like bullying really.

Forget about race and look at other similar scenarios and it makes more sense. Imagine the school had a lot of special needs students and they put on a sports day for them or something and a group of kids turned up with tshirts with pictures of mongs on the front, they would be told to remove them and stop being so mean.

Or if there was a 'Bring a parent to school day' where they come in and talk about their jobs and some kids put some t-shirts with slogans making jokes about certain jobs that many dads in the school do, or comments about those whose parent's left them or something, again it would just be a disruptive, mean, nasty thing to do.

Dizaster's own exmple was great, wearing a tshirt with a Vietnames woman with a machine gun to her head when the Japanese exchange students came to his school. Again just a cuntish thing to do.

I don't see why people are making this a patriotic or nationalistic issue when it's nothing to do with that. It was just a group of kids being twats and wanting to show another group of kids they weren't accepted.

Schools HAVE to outlaw bullying, and if the principle thought this could be construed as such (and it's not hard to see why) then he took the appropriate steps to stamp it out.

All he did was tell them if they didn't take them off they would be sent home for the afternoon. And these dickish kids were clearly just looking for trouble as they chose to go home.

Now their parents are planning to sue the school? For what?

It's fucking ridiculous and and it just makes me angry that these kinds of asshole people are out there, just trying to make a petty point and arguing for the sake of arguing, and of course clearly hoping to make a nice tidy sum of money in damages from it.

If they do sue I hope it gets rejected and they have to pay costs.

---

Yeah, the racist thing got under my skin at that point in time and I kind of sat back and thought "woah, I've been called a racist when I had no idea we were even talking about racism". Of course, I can see that racism might have been a point festering underneath it all in the actual story, but that is not how I looked at it when arguing my points. I took it as an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate to natives whether they can wear their own colours or not and in it's own way it is. I mean, can you honestly tell me where the offense is in wearing US flag colours on this particular holiday? From what I can gather this had nothing to do with American domination. Therefore, I struggle to see the issue with America in this instance. I find it strange that these students were so affronted by this behaviour. Now if it were Afghan students or Iraqi students I could really empathise, because I think American colonialism and brutality has been quite blatant, but to the Mexicans in this particular instance? I really struggle to see it.

I see your arguments and you put them across well. I can understand that it is a school and the peace needs to be kept, but I struggle to see why these Mexican kids couldn't contain themselves enough to just get through their schoolday and go home. It's just a day of the year and they are being allowed to celebrate their day. I find it hard to believe that these US shirts in the USA were really that big a deal to these immigrant kids who have been provided with decent lives in the very same country. And as I said why is America so wrong on this particular day, I struggle to see it.

If the American kids were trying to beat up the Mexican kids then it is bullying, but as it stands it's no more to me than a crowd of Everton shirt wearers having to walk down a street passing a handful of people in Liverpool shirts. Rise up and move beyond, it isn't so hard. It all seems so silly to me.

---

As far as I can tell there is no indication that any 'ethnic minorities' asked the principle to send the boys home. I think it is suggestive of a general underlying hostility that many people have towards ethnic minorities they automatically make negative attachments to them in cases such as these. Looking at your own post where you say you took it as 'an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate....'. I mean why did you assume that it was the ethnic minorities who were in the wrong here? and then 'it is strange the students were affronted by this behaviour'.

From what I've read the principle acted on his own accord prophylactically to prevent any trouble, yet you automatically see the ethnic's being the trouble makers here, when it's clear that it was the American kids trying to make a point, not the Mexicans.

I imagine the American kids had that same underlying hostility as well. When they heard Cinci Di Mayo was being celebrated at their school it got their backs up and they wanted to make a show of protest by wearing their own flags. They might not be racist, it might just be jealously and general resentment which is so common throughout the world.

You see it on this forum with the comments directed frequently at me for being registered as sick due to disability. Although it's no fault of my own that I had cancer and almost died, there are still a few people on here who are bothered by the idea that someone can be supported by the state. It just angers them and it's no coincidence I think that those who dislike me the most on this forum clearly have that axe to grind again and again.

I do think in general certain people have a kind of passive aggressive attitude towards certain people, religions, sexual orientations, racial groups etc and so will always interperate stories about them in a negative way.

Not singling you out here, I think we all do it. Every single one of us has a view regarding all the various people groups in the world and it filters how they see the news accordingly.

---

In response to your first argument, my point is really at the most basic of levels. I do not understand how a school with a majority of hispanic kids can become so upset by a small group of natives exercising their constitutional rights. In this sense I am always likely to take the side of free expression in a situation like this. Maybe it wasn't the Mexicans, but the decision to send the flag wearers home probably didn't come out of thin air. And as I asked before since when has 'Cinci Di Mayo' been such an offense commited by the Americans? By all accounts it isn't even a big Mexican holiday but something created more for north of the border.

Generally, I think I am motivated by the horrible sense of injustice that I feel exists in the world. Those are the kinds of things that rile me up more that most, but at the same time I have quite strong Libertarian leanings. I think the later is what has swayed me in this story. I don't really sense any injustice whatsover in this story besides kids being sent home for no proper reason. In my day it took a lot more than that to get sent home.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Nameless

Actually, I disagree with the kids being kicked out from school. Sure maybe it was provocation, which is not correct, however, it wasn't like if they did burn a Mexican flag or something, they were wearing the flag of their country in their country! In Canada for those who might not know it, we have 2 national holiday, June 24 and July 1st. July 24 is the national day for French part of Canada, la "St-Jean Baptiste", VERY popular here and I would even say by far far more than July first, you can't even compare it. How often do you think we've seen peoples in Montreal walking with Canadian flags when the whole rest of the province is walking with our blue and white on it only to provoke and ruin things? How many English native are doing so in the countryside where 95% of the kids speak french only to provoke things? It happens often. IT is not especially nice but it is the flag of our country as much as some might dislike it and till the opposite is proven, Quebec isn't independent yet from Canada. It is perhaps unnecessary provocation but you cannot throw a kid from school for that and I think that the same example is also valid for the Cinco de Mayo thing.

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I would assume that "by here" you mean in Quebec, because people don't celebrate it at all here. I couldn't have told you what date it was on or even the name of the holiday.

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It is unique to Quebec but is widely more popular and important than the July first here, it's not even comparable and yep, I effectively meant in Quebec and as far as I know, it's not celebrated anywhere else in the english part. Doesn't change the core of my arguments though.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

Jesus, what happened to the site? I stayed away for a few days because this thread made me a little bit mad and I didn't understand why I was being labelled a racist. I tried quoting Bilbo's post but this new system is weird and I wasn't sure it would reply properly so I will just do it like this instead. I'm glad to see that he doesn't think I am a racist because I am not and never have been. It's not in my mindset to hate on people because of a skin tone. He says that my argument is petty and he is entitled to that view and I'm not so upset by that. I still don't think it should be a problem that the kids wore the shirts though, certainly not on on the theoretical level, after all a shirt is just a shirt and what is so offensive about the American flag on this particular day? I just don't see the offense in that.

I'm not a nationalist, but I do believe in the freedom to wear what you like. It's a simple argument and I am sticking with it. I just cannot get upset by someone else wearing their own flag colours. It's not something I would do myself, but I could never get upset by others doing it.

My deportation comment was perhaps a bit harsh in retrospect and rash too, but my point was that if you are going to live in another culture you need to try and respect that culture too. You can't be getting too upset by native kids wearing their own colours. If it is an act of provocation then you need to rise above it, it's only a flag.

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I don't think you're a racist at all Miles I was just making a point of excercising my freedom of speech to call you names!

For me the issue is nothing to do with nationalism, patriotism, freedom of speech, liberties or anything else. It's simply a case of a school day being organised to celebrate something important to many people at the school and a small group of twats trying to be antagonistic about it. It's just like bullying really.

Forget about race and look at other similar scenarios and it makes more sense. Imagine the school had a lot of special needs students and they put on a sports day for them or something and a group of kids turned up with tshirts with pictures of mongs on the front, they would be told to remove them and stop being so mean.

Or if there was a 'Bring a parent to school day' where they come in and talk about their jobs and some kids put some t-shirts with slogans making jokes about certain jobs that many dads in the school do, or comments about those whose parent's left them or something, again it would just be a disruptive, mean, nasty thing to do.

Dizaster's own exmple was great, wearing a tshirt with a Vietnames woman with a machine gun to her head when the Japanese exchange students came to his school. Again just a cuntish thing to do.

I don't see why people are making this a patriotic or nationalistic issue when it's nothing to do with that. It was just a group of kids being twats and wanting to show another group of kids they weren't accepted.

Schools HAVE to outlaw bullying, and if the principle thought this could be construed as such (and it's not hard to see why) then he took the appropriate steps to stamp it out.

All he did was tell them if they didn't take them off they would be sent home for the afternoon. And these dickish kids were clearly just looking for trouble as they chose to go home.

Now their parents are planning to sue the school? For what?

It's fucking ridiculous and and it just makes me angry that these kinds of asshole people are out there, just trying to make a petty point and arguing for the sake of arguing, and of course clearly hoping to make a nice tidy sum of money in damages from it.

If they do sue I hope it gets rejected and they have to pay costs.

---

Yeah, the racist thing got under my skin at that point in time and I kind of sat back and thought "woah, I've been called a racist when I had no idea we were even talking about racism". Of course, I can see that racism might have been a point festering underneath it all in the actual story, but that is not how I looked at it when arguing my points. I took it as an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate to natives whether they can wear their own colours or not and in it's own way it is. I mean, can you honestly tell me where the offense is in wearing US flag colours on this particular holiday? From what I can gather this had nothing to do with American domination. Therefore, I struggle to see the issue with America in this instance. I find it strange that these students were so affronted by this behaviour. Now if it were Afghan students or Iraqi students I could really empathise, because I think American colonialism and brutality has been quite blatant, but to the Mexicans in this particular instance? I really struggle to see it.

I see your arguments and you put them across well. I can understand that it is a school and the peace needs to be kept, but I struggle to see why these Mexican kids couldn't contain themselves enough to just get through their schoolday and go home. It's just a day of the year and they are being allowed to celebrate their day. I find it hard to believe that these US shirts in the USA were really that big a deal to these immigrant kids who have been provided with decent lives in the very same country. And as I said why is America so wrong on this particular day, I struggle to see it.

If the American kids were trying to beat up the Mexican kids then it is bullying, but as it stands it's no more to me than a crowd of Everton shirt wearers having to walk down a street passing a handful of people in Liverpool shirts. Rise up and move beyond, it isn't so hard. It all seems so silly to me.

---

As far as I can tell there is no indication that any 'ethnic minorities' asked the principle to send the boys home. I think it is suggestive of a general underlying hostility that many people have towards ethnic minorities they automatically make negative attachments to them in cases such as these. Looking at your own post where you say you took it as 'an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate....'. I mean why did you assume that it was the ethnic minorities who were in the wrong here? and then 'it is strange the students were affronted by this behaviour'.

From what I've read the principle acted on his own accord prophylactically to prevent any trouble, yet you automatically see the ethnic's being the trouble makers here, when it's clear that it was the American kids trying to make a point, not the Mexicans.

I imagine the American kids had that same underlying hostility as well. When they heard Cinci Di Mayo was being celebrated at their school it got their backs up and they wanted to make a show of protest by wearing their own flags. They might not be racist, it might just be jealously and general resentment which is so common throughout the world.

You see it on this forum with the comments directed frequently at me for being registered as sick due to disability. Although it's no fault of my own that I had cancer and almost died, there are still a few people on here who are bothered by the idea that someone can be supported by the state. It just angers them and it's no coincidence I think that those who dislike me the most on this forum clearly have that axe to grind again and again.

I do think in general certain people have a kind of passive aggressive attitude towards certain people, religions, sexual orientations, racial groups etc and so will always interperate stories about them in a negative way.

Not singling you out here, I think we all do it. Every single one of us has a view regarding all the various people groups in the world and it filters how they see the news accordingly.

---

In response to your first argument, my point is really at the most basic of levels. I do not understand how a school with a majority of hispanic kids can become so upset by a small group of natives exercising their constitutional rights. In this sense I am always likely to take the side of free expression in a situation like this. Maybe it wasn't the Mexicans, but the decision to send the flag wearers home probably didn't come out of thin air. And as I asked before since when has 'Cinci Di Mayo' been such an offense commited by the Americans? By all accounts it isn't even a big Mexican holiday but something created more for north of the border.

Generally, I think I am motivated by the horrible sense of injustice that I feel exists in the world. Those are the kinds of things that rile me up more that most, but at the same time I have quite strong Libertarian leanings. I think the later is what has swayed me in this story. I don't really sense any injustice whatsover in this story besides kids being sent home for no proper reason. In my day it took a lot more than that to get sent home.

---

So, with your strong libertarian leanings, would you have been fine if the kids wearing these shirt to provoke the Hispanics provoked them to the point of violence?

I'm not trying to take sides here philosophically, but I absolutely understand why the Principal acted in the way he did.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by miles

Jesus, what happened to the site? I stayed away for a few days because this thread made me a little bit mad and I didn't understand why I was being labelled a racist. I tried quoting Bilbo's post but this new system is weird and I wasn't sure it would reply properly so I will just do it like this instead. I'm glad to see that he doesn't think I am a racist because I am not and never have been. It's not in my mindset to hate on people because of a skin tone. He says that my argument is petty and he is entitled to that view and I'm not so upset by that. I still don't think it should be a problem that the kids wore the shirts though, certainly not on on the theoretical level, after all a shirt is just a shirt and what is so offensive about the American flag on this particular day? I just don't see the offense in that.

I'm not a nationalist, but I do believe in the freedom to wear what you like. It's a simple argument and I am sticking with it. I just cannot get upset by someone else wearing their own flag colours. It's not something I would do myself, but I could never get upset by others doing it.

My deportation comment was perhaps a bit harsh in retrospect and rash too, but my point was that if you are going to live in another culture you need to try and respect that culture too. You can't be getting too upset by native kids wearing their own colours. If it is an act of provocation then you need to rise above it, it's only a flag.

---

I don't think you're a racist at all Miles I was just making a point of excercising my freedom of speech to call you names!

For me the issue is nothing to do with nationalism, patriotism, freedom of speech, liberties or anything else. It's simply a case of a school day being organised to celebrate something important to many people at the school and a small group of twats trying to be antagonistic about it. It's just like bullying really.

Forget about race and look at other similar scenarios and it makes more sense. Imagine the school had a lot of special needs students and they put on a sports day for them or something and a group of kids turned up with tshirts with pictures of mongs on the front, they would be told to remove them and stop being so mean.

Or if there was a 'Bring a parent to school day' where they come in and talk about their jobs and some kids put some t-shirts with slogans making jokes about certain jobs that many dads in the school do, or comments about those whose parent's left them or something, again it would just be a disruptive, mean, nasty thing to do.

Dizaster's own exmple was great, wearing a tshirt with a Vietnames woman with a machine gun to her head when the Japanese exchange students came to his school. Again just a cuntish thing to do.

I don't see why people are making this a patriotic or nationalistic issue when it's nothing to do with that. It was just a group of kids being twats and wanting to show another group of kids they weren't accepted.

Schools HAVE to outlaw bullying, and if the principle thought this could be construed as such (and it's not hard to see why) then he took the appropriate steps to stamp it out.

All he did was tell them if they didn't take them off they would be sent home for the afternoon. And these dickish kids were clearly just looking for trouble as they chose to go home.

Now their parents are planning to sue the school? For what?

It's fucking ridiculous and and it just makes me angry that these kinds of asshole people are out there, just trying to make a petty point and arguing for the sake of arguing, and of course clearly hoping to make a nice tidy sum of money in damages from it.

If they do sue I hope it gets rejected and they have to pay costs.

---

Yeah, the racist thing got under my skin at that point in time and I kind of sat back and thought "woah, I've been called a racist when I had no idea we were even talking about racism". Of course, I can see that racism might have been a point festering underneath it all in the actual story, but that is not how I looked at it when arguing my points. I took it as an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate to natives whether they can wear their own colours or not and in it's own way it is. I mean, can you honestly tell me where the offense is in wearing US flag colours on this particular holiday? From what I can gather this had nothing to do with American domination. Therefore, I struggle to see the issue with America in this instance. I find it strange that these students were so affronted by this behaviour. Now if it were Afghan students or Iraqi students I could really empathise, because I think American colonialism and brutality has been quite blatant, but to the Mexicans in this particular instance? I really struggle to see it.

I see your arguments and you put them across well. I can understand that it is a school and the peace needs to be kept, but I struggle to see why these Mexican kids couldn't contain themselves enough to just get through their schoolday and go home. It's just a day of the year and they are being allowed to celebrate their day. I find it hard to believe that these US shirts in the USA were really that big a deal to these immigrant kids who have been provided with decent lives in the very same country. And as I said why is America so wrong on this particular day, I struggle to see it.

If the American kids were trying to beat up the Mexican kids then it is bullying, but as it stands it's no more to me than a crowd of Everton shirt wearers having to walk down a street passing a handful of people in Liverpool shirts. Rise up and move beyond, it isn't so hard. It all seems so silly to me.

---

As far as I can tell there is no indication that any 'ethnic minorities' asked the principle to send the boys home. I think it is suggestive of a general underlying hostility that many people have towards ethnic minorities they automatically make negative attachments to them in cases such as these. Looking at your own post where you say you took it as 'an oddball story where ethnic minorities were trying to dictate....'. I mean why did you assume that it was the ethnic minorities who were in the wrong here? and then 'it is strange the students were affronted by this behaviour'.

From what I've read the principle acted on his own accord prophylactically to prevent any trouble, yet you automatically see the ethnic's being the trouble makers here, when it's clear that it was the American kids trying to make a point, not the Mexicans.

I imagine the American kids had that same underlying hostility as well. When they heard Cinci Di Mayo was being celebrated at their school it got their backs up and they wanted to make a show of protest by wearing their own flags. They might not be racist, it might just be jealously and general resentment which is so common throughout the world.

You see it on this forum with the comments directed frequently at me for being registered as sick due to disability. Although it's no fault of my own that I had cancer and almost died, there are still a few people on here who are bothered by the idea that someone can be supported by the state. It just angers them and it's no coincidence I think that those who dislike me the most on this forum clearly have that axe to grind again and again.

I do think in general certain people have a kind of passive aggressive attitude towards certain people, religions, sexual orientations, racial groups etc and so will always interperate stories about them in a negative way.

Not singling you out here, I think we all do it. Every single one of us has a view regarding all the various people groups in the world and it filters how they see the news accordingly.

---

In response to your first argument, my point is really at the most basic of levels. I do not understand how a school with a majority of hispanic kids can become so upset by a small group of natives exercising their constitutional rights. In this sense I am always likely to take the side of free expression in a situation like this. Maybe it wasn't the Mexicans, but the decision to send the flag wearers home probably didn't come out of thin air. And as I asked before since when has 'Cinci Di Mayo' been such an offense commited by the Americans? By all accounts it isn't even a big Mexican holiday but something created more for north of the border.

Generally, I think I am motivated by the horrible sense of injustice that I feel exists in the world. Those are the kinds of things that rile me up more that most, but at the same time I have quite strong Libertarian leanings. I think the later is what has swayed me in this story. I don't really sense any injustice whatsover in this story besides kids being sent home for no proper reason. In my day it took a lot more than that to get sent home.

---

So, with your strong libertarian leanings, would you have been fine if the kids wearing these shirt to provoke the Hispanics provoked them to the point of violence?

I'm not trying to take sides here philosophically, but I absolutely understand why the Principal acted in the way he did.

---

No, those wearing the US colours would have been in no way in the right trying to cause a physical scene.

That's where my support of the argument would be lost.

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Originally Posted by miles

No, those wearing the US colours would have been in no way in the right trying to cause a physical scene.

That's where my support of the argument would be lost.

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I think you've misunderstood my question a bit. Probably my fault for the way I wrote it.

What I was asking was that if the kids were allowed to wear their shirts and to provoke the Hispanic students and had provoked those Hispanic students to act violently as a result of the confrontations would potentially could have occurred, would you still feel that they should have been allowed to wear the shirts or that they did nothing wrong? IMO if violence did break out, those wearing the shirts would have to shoulder some of the blame.

I hope that's a bit more clear.

No, no, no. I misread the question first time out CFH!

If the Mexican kids could not have controlled their anger then they should go to anger management schools or find alternative ways to live. I have no sympathy with a man that cannot control his violent tendencies. If I need to kill because a Korean wears the "taeguki" then that is pathetic. The same thing here, these kids are ruling in numbers and they need to pick on the idiots that choose to stand out? Sorry, I wouldn't have sympathy for that.

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

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Originally Posted by ono

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

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On reflection I think I've accepted that might be the case, but we don't really know all the ins and outs. If they are counter suing, it would seem unlikely that they were trying to beat up all the Mexicans though. My main argument is at the basic level pointing out that you can wear a shirt and that I will wear another one and that neither of us has the right to hit each other for it. It's such a simple argument.

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Originally Posted by miles

No, no, no. I misread the question first time out CFH!

If the Mexican kids could not have controlled their anger then they should go to anger management schools or find alternative ways to live. I have no sympathy with a man that cannot control his violent tendencies. If I need to kill because a Korean wears the "taeguki" then that is pathetic. The same thing here, these kids are ruling in numbers and they need to pick on the idiots that choose to stand out? Sorry, I wouldn't have sympathy for that.

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Normally I would agree, but in this instance they are being deliberately provoked about an extremely contentious issue that is at the fore of American domestic politics at the time. The is a lot of anger, from all sides, about American immigration policy and illegal immigration and I imagine confrontations and violence could have easily been the result of these kids wearing those shirts, which is why I side with the Principal and why I wouldn't solely blame the Hispanics if things got out of hand. It's a poor, hyperbolic analogy, but if I walked through Watts wearing a white-power t-shirt, I would be the person responsible for the beating given to me not those who did it, regardless of whether or not it was my right to wear such a shift. If the Principal felt that those shirts could cause a lot of trouble, he had every right to do what he did. He is charged with protecting the students in his charge (all of them) and for ensuring a peaceful learning environment.

Again, like Bilbo, you make good points.

But I would argue that a correct principal would not allow students to celebrate national days if there are serious issues with government going on. If there are issues with national identity then why have these stupid national days to begin with? The best way to solve it is to celebrate nothing. No special days for any students ever and then we head to the future perfect pc world. I still don't have any sympathy for this Mexican holiday that has no currency with most actual Mexicans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miles

Again, like Bilbo, you make good points.

But I would argue that a correct principal would not allow students to celebrate national days if there are serious issues with government going on. If there are issues with national identity then why have these stupid national days to begin with? The best way to solve it is to celebrate nothing. No special days for any students ever and then we head to the future perfect pc world. I still don't have any sympathy for this Mexican holiday that has no currency with most actual Mexicans.

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How would you know that? How many Mexicans do you know? :p

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Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miles

Again, like Bilbo, you make good points.

But I would argue that a correct principal would not allow students to celebrate national days if there are serious issues with government going on. If there are issues with national identity then why have these stupid national days to begin with? The best way to solve it is to celebrate nothing. No special days for any students ever and then we head to the future perfect pc world. I still don't have any sympathy for this Mexican holiday that has no currency with most actual Mexicans.

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How would you know that? How many Mexicans do you know? :p

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Google, and I don't know any Mexicans.

But does it matter if I know any Mexicans? I would say no.

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Originally Posted by miles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ono

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miles

Again, like Bilbo, you make good points.

But I would argue that a correct principal would not allow students to celebrate national days if there are serious issues with government going on. If there are issues with national identity then why have these stupid national days to begin with? The best way to solve it is to celebrate nothing. No special days for any students ever and then we head to the future perfect pc world. I still don't have any sympathy for this Mexican holiday that has no currency with most actual Mexicans.

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How would you know that? How many Mexicans do you know? :p

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Google, and I don't know any Mexicans.

But does it matter if I know any Mexicans? I would say no.

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It matters because you've just claimed that Cinco de Mayo has no' currency' with most actual Mexicans. So i was presuming you was basing that opinion on experience.

Ono has miles against the ropes!

My original point will hold true and that holiday really has no relevance for most Mexicans anyway.

Are you trying to prove otherwise?

(Booze, am I fuck against the ropes?)

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Originally Posted by miles

My original point will hold true and that holiday really has no relevance for most Mexicans anyway.

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well most of you all don't have any true connection with bond-fire day or whatever you all call it, but many like to celebrate and mistake that for a national pride?

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Originally Posted by miles

My original point will hold true and that holiday really has no relevance for most Mexicans anyway.

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Brilliant. Buenos Noches amigo.

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu apprentice

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

Nothing you have said here is of direct relevance to the debate. Like I said, you HAVE to question the mindset of these boys. Without going on a rant about how much you hate the Mexicans for the way they shaped your history, tell me.... Question why do it? On this day?

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They were in The United States of America .....is that not a good enough reason?


The idea of kicking these students out of school for wearing American flag t-shirts is 100% against everything The United States is about because the boys wearing the t-shirts did not prevent the people from celebrating Cinco de Mayo and THAT my friend is the bottom line....free speech isn't always nice and pleasant and fun, but sometimes a t-shirt is just a t-shirt and in this case an American from ANY ethnic group should be outraged that this happened.

I also find it highly offensive that the illegal immigrants wave Mexican flags when they protest immigration policy....that's just fucking idiotic, but I don't think just because they wave the Mexican flag that they should be thrown out of the country just on account of the flag thing.

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I agree with most of what you wrote. Except for being offended by immigration protest thing which really doesn't bother me. Even though I am against them, there is some benefit to school uniforms.

Yes, in conclusion I will argue that schools are no place to celebrate foreign holidays and that uniforms are a pretty good idea. No Mexican shirts and therefore no American shirts either. It can work both ways and and at all times. That's how a school can avoid these issues.

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Originally Posted by miles

Yes, in conclusion I will argue that schools are no place to celebrate foreign holidays and that uniforms are a pretty good idea. No Mexican shirts and therefore no American shirts either. It can work both ways and and at all times. That's how a school can avoid these issues.

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Schools tend to celebrate these sort of days to teach the kids about the history and significance of such holidays. Cinco De Mayo has significance because it celebrates the fact that Puebla in Mexico resisited invasion by France, despite being vastly outnumbered. Eventually Mexico became occupied by the French, but that's beside the point. It's relevant to teach in America as there are Mexicans in the country and there are Americans with Mexican ancestry.

The kids broke the US flag code aswell, which is both bewildering and funny....in equal measures.

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Originally Posted by ono

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

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Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

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Originally Posted by ono

I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.

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Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.

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Yes, there is nothing to suggest that the kids were being violent in expressing themselves. If they had been wearing the flag and walking about hitting the Mexicans then I would fully empathise with the Mexicans, but just based on wearing a few silly colours I struggle to see the big deal. I find it such a bizarre thing to get upset about. I couldn't imagine a situation from my school days where someone would get so worked up by a flag, but we did have to wear uniforms up until 6th form which is possibly the best option if this is how sensitive people are going to get. And they should all have the same haircuts too just like kids do here. If you are going to get so worked up by people expressing themselves (no matter how ignorantly) then how about going the other way and showing what its like for everyone to have no freedom. Uniform clothes and haircuts is the way to deal with this. Well done, KS on solving the issue for me! Hooray!