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Rudduck was ruined by Tyson admittedly he was not great but at the time he was very much feared because of his punching power. As Spicoli said he was a one handed fighter and that hand was not used on the jab either. He smashed most people that got in front of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Yea but who did he smash worth a shit i mean lets get real how is he better then now we don't even know how good he was expect losing big fights. You guys shit on Bryde but hell he got wins even if you think he was shit.
People are criminally underrating Tyson.
Almost everybody back then believed that he was clearly on his way to becoming the GOAT and towards smashing all significant heavyweight records ahead of him.
The whole point of Tyson taking on Ruddock was because everybody was ducking him. And then he fought him twice, which was completely ludicrous because he ruined that mans career after that and delayed his own chances at a title shot. He didn't have to take the rematch but Tyson being the naive guy he was didn't want any doubt to surround his TKO victory in the first fight.
Ruddock by his own admission was finished after those fights. He took so much damage that he was never going to be the same fighter again.
What should have happened was that Tyson should've either immediately gotten a rematch with Douglas or that he should've gotten a title at Holyfield after the first Ruddock fight. He was the former champ and most deserving for a title shot. Douglas didn't want to fvck up and ruin the greatest upset in boxing history so he didn't take a rematch, which is understandable, but Tyson deserved more of a title shot than old Foreman.
I'm sure a guy named "TysonBomb" will set us all straight. Obviously you are an unbiased, critical thinker when it comes to evaluating Iron Mike Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb
I take back what I said about it being a toss-up. I've been rewatching several of Wlad's fights over the past few years and I say prime Wlad beats the shit out of prime Tyson. I don't even think it would be a close fight.
I give Wlad 8/10 wins, the 2 wins for Tyson being he lands a good haymaker.
I don't think Tyson lands with any consistency against Wlad, I think he gets eaten up with jabs and right hands like he did against Buster, and I think he possibly goes down in the later rounds.
If you Tyson marks want to believe he'd just go out and land some leaping left hook on Wlad, that's fine. Live in the fantasy. Wlad's reflexes, speed and footwork negates most of Tyson's offense and he gets eaten alive from the outside.
I love Mike and I always stand up for him when people dog his opposition, because I think he fought a solid variety of guys and really showed he is an all time great, but against either Klitschko he takes a MONUMENTAL beating.
Yeah but they didn't account for the fact that he was a complete thug and mental midget outside of the ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb
:lol: A retired 40 yr old who had just lost twice to a former LHW and only had 2 months to prepare was comparable to prime SHW lewis??? LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb
How do u get confused with Floored and Flawed!! LOL. And you talking about insulting ppl is laughable! Hypocrite. VK has a 87.23% knockout percentage rate, he holds the second best knockout-to-fight ratio of any champion in heavyweight boxing history.Quote:
Yes I mean floored everyone makes a spelling error once in a while its not cool to insult someone based on that. Vitali has a weak punch, buster dougless hits alot harder than vitali. .
Dicky Ryan was brutalised by VK yet went the distance with Douglas. Douglas couldn't even stop David Jaco who was knocked out about 9 times around the time Douglas fought him, in fact he was kayoed about 20 times in his career ! LOL. Quit talking shit...
Yes it is iron, He has never been dropped and look who he's faced! SHW behemoth Lewis on short notice, Sanders the hardest hiting southpaw HW ever, Peter who dropped both Toney and Wlad, even hide had riddick Bowe going at one point...Tyson was dropped by small Evander Holyfield and Douglass ffs...Quote:
His chin is not iron he has a solid chin and good defense he almost crumbled against sanders, and sanders is no where near as powerful as Tyson. A past prime Tyson took loads of flush shots from Lennox and he never got KOed fully, again another reason why he would beat Lewsis in his prime. .
Tyson was never KOTFO by anyone, missed the count sure never KOTFO and he takes an INSANE number of power punches to be put down. Huge numbers go check how many times danny hit him full power in the head in a row. (Which he never would have done to a prime Tyson with some of the best head movement).
Q. Shannon briggs who is the best fighter you have been in with?
A . Vitali.
Q. Danny Williams who was your toughest ever opponent?
A. "Vitali Klitschko easy. The man is so awkward. You know, you look at him and his style does not look that good. You look at Mayweather and you think ‘wow – what a beautiful boxing style he has got’. Klitschko – he looks ‘novicey’, he looks slow and awkward and clumsy. But when he gets in the ring he is a very good fighter. His punches are so painful, each time he hits you it is like someone is putting steel into your face. He is a real good fighter.”
How on earth can u be so dumb? Course it can...Quote:
Bottem line Vitalis chin cannot take Tysons power if he is getting wobbled by much lesser punchers. Dougless hits harder than Vitali, just because he is low ranking in History dosnt mean he isnt a dangerous puncher. .
Green, Tillis, Holyfield, Lewis, Tucker, Smith, Douglas, Ruddock etc al survived Tysons punches but VK cant? A genuine SHW that has never been dropped! Comparing sanders to Tyson is silly because it was his southpaw stance that posed the problem for VK not his power!
Rahman in 2000 said Sanders hit him harder than he's ever been hit in his ENTIRE LIFE. And Rahman has faced some heavy hitters, Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Evander Holyfield, Oleg Maskaev, to name a few...
Sanders did not drop Vitali. Sanders landed the most perfect punch he could possibly land and still Vitali was fully recovered in matter of seconds. He ran back and was pretty much in balance. KO Vitali it takes something extraordinary.
In conclusion u have not got a clue what u are talking about. A great chin and a solid jab was all it took..Quote:
IN CONCLUSION VITALI DOSNT HAVE THE CHIN OR THE POWER OR THE STYLE OR THE SPEED TO HOLD UP AGAINST A PRIME TYSON.
Yes he was but in the ring he was great. It is not as if he is going to marry your daughter.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerYeah but they didn't account for the fact that he was a complete thug and mental midget outside of the ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb
I like boxers with a mean streak, but it's hard to be a great boxer when you can't box because you're locked up for raping a girl (ask Ibeabuchi or Tony Ayala).
Those with short memories will dismiss Tyson's chances against the Klits, a prime 1986-89 Tyson beats all of them including the Klits.
Well Tyson crushing cans few ok fighters and atg who was past his beast does not mean he could beat a elite fighter. I mean he lost to Douglas for fuck sake Wlad lost to people who he should not have either. I mean Wlad may not have fought great fighters so its kinda of a unknown. Tyson Has fought greats like Holyfeild and Lewis but those fighters crushed him. I never seen fighter ranked so high on some people list with out the resume to back it up. Ali, Foreman, Lewis and Holyfeild beat great fighters and were competitive for a long time thats what made them great.
Ali is "great" because he beat Frazier who was "great" because he beat Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
This BS about fighting "great" fighters is overstated. Who the hell did Holmes beat to be considered "great"? Why is Holyfield "great"? Because he has a 26-10 record as a heavyweight? A JOURNEYMAN record?? If his best win is against Tyson, who is a bum, then why is he great?
Post prison Tyson "losing" to Holyfield and to Lewis when he was a walking zombie doesn't mean anything. Tyson beat Michael Spinks, the greatest LHW ever ... he also beat Holmes, who is supposed to be "great" according to you.
Yeah I will concede that he didn't fight in a particular special era but he beat everyone there and made a resurgence after he lost. You can't blame Tyson for things he didn't have control over. Holmes ruled over an even weaker division yet he doesn't get this kind of criticism. Holmes couldn't even become undisputed heavyweight champion in the piss poor era he fought in and made a career out of crushing CANS and a sick, Parkinson's riddled Ali. The first elite fighter he fought, in Mike Tyson, he got KTFO. His biggest win to that point was an old Ken Norton or Gerry Cooney.
If Tyson fought nothing but bums then why does Lewis have those same names on his resume? He fought even weaker versions of those bums. Holyfield couldn't even win his series with John Ruiz and lost 2 out of 3 to Riddick Bowe.
Let us put things in perspective here ... Tyson wasn't being cracked by every punch that landed on his jaw nor was he petrified of anything going near his chin like Wlad.
Thing is Tyson lost to Douglas at a young age on top of the world he was a fucking 40 to 1 to win it. When has a great lost that bad to a fucking journeyman in his prime. Holyfeild was fucking 40 when he lost to Ruiz so if you want to count those loses look at what Tyson did at the end of his career. Bowie is a better win then anything Tyson has on his resume and that was Holyfeild fighting with a 40 pound weight difference. I would say Bowie, Tyson, Forman, Holmes and Moore are Holyfeilds best wins at the hw division and Tysons is Holmes and Spinks big fucking whoop. So all that time at Heavyweight and his resume ain't even Half of what Holyfeilds was so yea i rank Holyfeild higher in the hw list on being able to avenge a lose and also being able to win against top fighters of his time.
He would probably be incarcerated for half of it, come out and avoid every top HW until his coke habit and taxes needed funding, get schooled by K2 and then take a supposedly easier brit (Chisora) and get cained again!
I know that not everyone will agree with what I have to say but in order to be called great, we are sometimes mistaken when we call a fighter great. Everyone has great moments or in this scenario nights but very few of us can transcend these moments into an era. Great fighters are mistakenly called great for having great nights. What makes a fighter great is the training, the homework and living the lifestyle of a fighter. Some call themselves warriors but be careful because soldiers are often called warriors when they are trained for what they do and a good soldier like a good fighter is open for greatness. He does his job with the resources available to him and a renewable, mind you renewable desire each time he gets into the ring. Warriors in certain parts of history are known as mindless killers, not a good image. Know what you mean and mean what you say. In summation, yes under the wing of Rooney given all the sets of circumstances that got him there minus, Ruthless Roper and Robbing Givens, he could with training and the right coaching repeat his feats in this era because with those tools, you have fighters that care and most of all, realistic. I don't know about great but if you think back into your own life you just may find you are capable of doing better things if you had patience, education and perseverance. Champion has a good ring to it, right? Most of the contenders in the heavyweight division should fight more often because if Mike was here they'd definitely need to practice survival of the fittest. I'm not the biggest fan of Mike Tyson but his greatness was never truly fulfilled because he was distracted.
Easily distracted, after Buster got through with him. Tyson became distracted by his own suspect chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
What makes anyone think the same thing wouldn't happen again.
Suspect chin? You really do not know boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedEasily distracted, after Buster got through with him. Tyson became distracted by his own suspect chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
What makes anyone think the same thing wouldn't happen again.
I know how to read a boxing record. He was a great puncher but after all was said and done, he could dish it out but he--his chin--couldn't take it. Too bad he couldn't keep his penis where it belonged, he wouldn't have lost some good years, effectively screwing himself and his legacy. Too bad his chin didn't match his mouth, his KO% would have been much better too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSuspect chin? You really do not know boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedEasily distracted, after Buster got through with him. Tyson became distracted by his own suspect chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
What makes anyone think the same thing wouldn't happen again.
What are you on? His chin took bombs.
You cant just look at a record and conclude.There is no evidence to suggest that Tyson had a bad chin. The punches Douglas landed to get Mike in trouble were perfectly timed and placed and may have dropped anyone. Its like saying Fullmer had a bad chin because of the second Robinson fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedI know how to read a boxing record. He was a great puncher but after all was said and done, he could dish it out but he--his chin--couldn't take it. Too bad he couldn't keep his penis where it belonged, he wouldn't have lost some good years, effectively screwing himself and his legacy. Too bad his chin didn't match his mouth, his KO% would have been much better too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSuspect chin? You really do not know boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOedEasily distracted, after Buster got through with him. Tyson became distracted by his own suspect chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
What makes anyone think the same thing wouldn't happen again.
Same with Lewis. People actually consider him to have a weak chin because of the McCall and Rahman fight but FFS had those shots landed on anyone I don't see them continuing. He simply got caught clean and any man can be knocked out. These same people ignore the bombs he took from Vitali in the pocket to continue the dogma.
Lets get real on the rape charge. He may have been convicted as he was Americas bad boy at the time but that whole episode in history leaves a bad taste. Like a gold digging gone wrong. Never trusted that entire ordeal even though I admit to hating Tyson at the time. Tyson was a phenom regardless of who ranks him on their atg lists and is an atg. The jail term changes nothing boxing wise. His legacy is set and he's a first ballet hall of famer regardless of the circus late in his career.
The time off Jeffries spent prior to fighting Johnson changes nothing.
The time off Louis spent because of ww2 changes nothing.
The time off Ali spent because of Viet Nam changes nothing.
The time off Tyson spent in jail because of a trumped up rape changes nothing.
None of those lapses in time change the body of work by any of those all time greats.
lol so you're telling me that nobody could've survived those shots from McCall and Rahman??
:rolleyes:
Tokyo Douglas would've had Wlad out of there in 2 rounds max ... Vitali would've gotten TKOed in 6 ;)
Off topic here but, that puppy looks high.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb
I'm a big Tyson fan also, but there's such a thing as taking fandom to an extreme.
#1- A heavyweight takes a flush shot such as Lewis did against both McCall and Rahman... and 90% chance he's going down. Lewis was not moving back with the punch. There was no partial blockage of the punch. In each case, the punch landed right on the button (the point of the chin, which rattles the brain more).
#2- I'm the first one to say that Douglas deserves all the credit in the world (see past posts) for his upset of Tyson. And I do think he KO's Wlad at some point early or mid-fight. But Vitali KO'ed in 6? C'mon man. What Mrs. Klitschko didn't give to Wlad in the chin department, was because Vitali had already taken it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I caught him perfect with that picture. I put him up into the forklift and he turned and gave me that look.
We can't say for sure how many heavyweights could take those shots from Rahman and McCall, so assigning a percentage is the wrong thing to do. But I can tell you that not every heavyweight would be KOed from those punches. And how many one punch KOs do Rahman and McCall have between them?? Both were never known for one punch KO power ... McCall was known for durability and Rahman was known for his overall ability. It was more of a chin failure from Lewis than super punches from either guy ... especially when Lewis was KTFO while exchanging with McCall and with his guard up against Rahman.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb
I'm a big Tyson fan also, but there's such a thing as taking fandom to an extreme.
#1- A heavyweight takes a flush shot such as Lewis did against both McCall and Rahman... and 90% chance he's going down. Lewis was not moving back with the punch. There was no partial blockage of the punch. In each case, the punch landed right on the button (the point of the chin, which rattles the brain more).
#2- I'm the first one to say that Douglas deserves all the credit in the world (see past posts) for his upset of Tyson. And I do think he KO's Wlad at some point early or mid-fight. But Vitali KO'ed in 6? C'mon man. What Mrs. Klitschko didn't give to Wlad in the chin department, was because Vitali had already taken it.
"That punch would've KOed anybody" isn't always true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBombWe can't say for sure how many heavyweights could take those shots from Rahman and McCall, so assigning a percentage is the wrong thing to do. But I can tell you that not every heavyweight would be KOed from those punches. And how many one punch KOs do Rahman and McCall have between them?? Both were never known for one punch KO power ... McCall was known for durability and Rahman was known for his overall ability. It was more of a chin failure from Lewis than super punches from either guy ... especially when Lewis was KTFO while exchanging with McCall and with his guard up against Rahman.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by TysonBomb
I'm a big Tyson fan also, but there's such a thing as taking fandom to an extreme.
#1- A heavyweight takes a flush shot such as Lewis did against both McCall and Rahman... and 90% chance he's going down. Lewis was not moving back with the punch. There was no partial blockage of the punch. In each case, the punch landed right on the button (the point of the chin, which rattles the brain more).
#2- I'm the first one to say that Douglas deserves all the credit in the world (see past posts) for his upset of Tyson. And I do think he KO's Wlad at some point early or mid-fight. But Vitali KO'ed in 6? C'mon man. What Mrs. Klitschko didn't give to Wlad in the chin department, was because Vitali had already taken it.
"That punch would've KOed anybody" isn't always true.
You're right. There's no way to accurately put a percentage on how many HW's would be knocked out by those punches. But I still think you're oversimplifying things with the bolded statement above. You neglect to notice everything else about the punches which resulted in the knockouts. I've seen these over and over again. They caught Lewis cold and flush on the point of the chin. These punches, more than any other head punches, create the sudden rotation of the neck which in combination with the rattling of the brain results in a knockout. Many other head shots land on the cheek, forehead, ear, etc. The point of the chin is the most susceptible. You also neglected to consider what I mentioned about the punches not being partially blocked. This happens a lot also. And finally... you said it yourself. Lewis was exchanging with McCall. A lot of knockouts occur as a result of an exchange, when the other fighter is coming forward with his own punch. And what you call "his guard up" against Rahman was nothing but a lazy attempt at keeping his hands up. Rahman's punch touched nothing but chin. The theory that Lewis somehow had a suspect chin gets put to bed with the fight against Vitali, where Lewis caught some heavy bombs himself.
Lewis' issue was usually mental. He could be lackadaisical and lazy, which he was in the first fights against both McCall and Rahman... or he could come in with a killer's mentality.
Is that the same McCall who it was common knowledge he gave Tyson living Hell in sparring and was said to have dropped pre Douglas Mike Tyson ???
They never dropped each other to my knowledge. Tyson was dropped by Greg Page in prep for Douglas but that's about it. But even Trevor Berbick was giving Mike problems then, who was clearly not prepared at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
They did have some tough battles in sparring but unlike Tyson, Lewis was KTFO when it mattered and was rolling around the canvas like an intoxicated mutt.
And please show me proof of McCall EVER being a 1 punch KO artist. Even he was shocked at how pathetic Lewis's punch resistance was and how easy it was to KO him. McCall was never known as a huge puncher, that is revisionist history from Lewis fans. Nor was he an amazing KO artist ... his KO% is just 53%.
Holmes was great because he had longevity and many defences of the title. Holmes had a great chin and got up from being hit by some of the biggest hitters in history. Holmes had the best jab ever. The only reason Holmes did not unify was because King held the other titles. Lets not downgrade Holmes just to defend Tyson. Holmes gave Holyfield a run for his money and beat an undefeated Mercer when he was very old.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonBombAli is "great" because he beat Frazier who was "great" because he beat Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
This BS about fighting "great" fighters is overstated. Who the hell did Holmes beat to be considered "great"? Why is Holyfield "great"? Because he has a 26-10 record as a heavyweight? A JOURNEYMAN record?? If his best win is against Tyson, who is a bum, then why is he great?
Post prison Tyson "losing" to Holyfield and to Lewis when he was a walking zombie doesn't mean anything. Tyson beat Michael Spinks, the greatest LHW ever ... he also beat Holmes, who is supposed to be "great" according to you.
Yeah I will concede that he didn't fight in a particular special era but he beat everyone there and made a resurgence after he lost. You can't blame Tyson for things he didn't have control over. Holmes ruled over an even weaker division yet he doesn't get this kind of criticism. Holmes couldn't even become undisputed heavyweight champion in the piss poor era he fought in and made a career out of crushing CANS and a sick, Parkinson's riddled Ali. The first elite fighter he fought, in Mike Tyson, he got KTFO. His biggest win to that point was an old Ken Norton or Gerry Cooney.
If Tyson fought nothing but bums then why does Lewis have those same names on his resume? He fought even weaker versions of those bums. Holyfield couldn't even win his series with John Ruiz and lost 2 out of 3 to Riddick Bowe.
Let us put things in perspective here ... Tyson wasn't being cracked by every punch that landed on his jaw nor was he petrified of anything going near his chin like Wlad.
Tyson had a 3 year prime and done nothing after,apart from taking a few beatings,
He is also a pretty shit human being
True but those 3 years were amazing and he has turned out to be an ok guy. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto duran legend
The only person I can think of that had a shorter prime is Riddick Bowe, maybe Floyd PattersonQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterTrue but those 3 years were amazing and he has turned out to be an ok guy. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto duran legend
You can stretch you prime with very selective fights to last many years such as Dempsey did.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongThe only person I can think of that had a shorter prime is Riddick Bowe, maybe Floyd PattersonQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterTrue but those 3 years were amazing and he has turned out to be an ok guy. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto duran legend
Yea but Tyson kinda lacked in coming back from a lose most greats do he never avenged his first lose which he could of. Also he kinda never dug deep to win the big fights after words. Most atg come back and and win Holyfield, Lewis, Forman, Holmes and Ali all did it which makes me mark down Tyson a tad. He did run through in those few years but the lose to Douglas which never should of happened and his lack of comeback kinda marks him down. Plus besides Holmes because Spinks best win besides a gift was Cooney for fucksake, He lost the others to Holyfeild and Lewis.
Tyson did win the title after he came out of jail. To illustrate Tyson's heart watch the Rudduck fight, he had to dig deep there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
I think the Ruddock & Bruno fights were Mike at his best vs very tough, determined fighters. Had those guys had better chins or better defense they might have been able to beat Tyson. Sure Tyson's "Prime" was vs Spinks, but shit Spinks laid down, he didn't want any part of Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
People here don't understand what "prime" means.
Every fighter has a different prime. Tyson had a 4 year prime from 86-89. During his prime he was more prolific than any heavyweight. He wasn't KTFO by B level fighters twice like Lewis in his prime.
Even Lewis acknowledged that Tyson was done by the time he fought him and you morons still hold it against him. Are we going to hold it against Joe Louis to get knocked right out of the ring against Marciano? Or for Ali to become nothing but a mere punching bag against Holmes? That fight was a farce and Tyson was still the only reason why it was big ... Lewis had the drawing power of a fly. Mike didn't even like boxing at that point and didn't even bother to get in shape.
How long was Joe Fraziers prime or Marcianos?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKALuwnbHM One punchQuote:
Originally Posted by TysonBombThey never dropped each other to my knowledge. Tyson was dropped by Greg Page in prep for Douglas but that's about it. But even Trevor Berbick was giving Mike problems then, who was clearly not prepared at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
They did have some tough battles in sparring but unlike Tyson, Lewis was KTFO when it mattered and was rolling around the canvas like an intoxicated mutt.
And please show me proof of McCall EVER being a 1 punch KO artist. Even he was shocked at how pathetic Lewis's punch resistance was and how easy it was to KO him. McCall was never known as a huge puncher, that is revisionist history from Lewis fans. Nor was he an amazing KO artist ... his KO% is just 53%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z98mSWTIepM One punch
I know I know, nows the point when you tell everyone how shitty Akinwande and Maskaev were. I actually get that but the point is that as cliche as it is to say 'anything can happen at heavyweight' it is all very true. The way you contort things to fit an agenda is as transparent as glass. McCall sparked Akinwande, Lewis did not. Is there any doubt Lewis is still the bigger puncher regardless? You cannot say Lewis is a glass jawed mutt because he was caught with literally only two shots that had him out while also knowing he was hit sharper, harder and faced bigger punchers and withstood against the likes of a Holyfield, or a Mercer, or a "zombie Tyson" or a Tua, or a Morrison etc etc or the very same Rahman in the rematch. All of whom I have no doubt are better hitters than a Oliver McCall who literally had his eyes closed when he threw and landed a one in a million shot. Ko ratios and simple record lines are not the end all and be all. Its heavyweights, bombs land and shit falls down. I don't know anyone declaring McCall a tremendous punching machine off a single elite level one punch ko and equally its in error to think Lewis would just crumble into dust vs your bwoy because it was he who fell that night. Something tells me I've just wasted alot of time. No one is bashing Mike...but he was human, not some super hero who walked on water and crapped gold cufflinks. Come down to Earth.