"Ali hate"..... what's the point??

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Originally Posted by C.J.Rock

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Clay was never the best , I fail to see how anyone can like a yellow bellied coward.

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Have you ever met Ali??? Talked to him?? Well I have. he was great really nice friendly guy NEVER refused to sign an autograph or have a pic taken
I asked Joe Frazier in Dallas about their supposed hate for each other Joe grinned & said
" I would not say we were friends but Ive never met a man Ive respected more than Ali
I didn't have the same beliefs he did but I respected the way he stood up for them. He could easily have accepted induction & done the same as Joe Louis did & become a propaganda figure but his beliefs forbade that" " As I fighter Ali was the most courageous I ever fought I hit him with everything I had & he still kept coming
To call Ali a coward is disgusting he still has the same beliefs today over 50 years later so to call him a fake yellow bellied coward is unfair


Ali was ,is & always will be THE GREATEST!!! in my book

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Are you aware,

That Adolf Hitler was also a very charming fellow at parties. He was very quiet and
reserved.

He was often called ....... 'the most cordial' at social events.

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Originally Posted by C.J.Rock

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Clay was never the best , I fail to see how anyone can like a yellow bellied coward.

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Have you ever met Ali??? Talked to him?? Well I have. he was great really nice friendly guy NEVER refused to sign an autograph or have a pic taken
I asked Joe Frazier in Dallas about their supposed hate for each other Joe grinned & said
" I would not say we were friends but Ive never met a man Ive respected more than Ali
I didn't have the same beliefs he did but I respected the way he stood up for them. He could easily have accepted induction & done the same as Joe Louis did & become a propaganda figure but his beliefs forbade that" " As I fighter Ali was the most courageous I ever fought I hit him with everything I had & he still kept coming
To call Ali a coward is disgusting he still has the same beliefs today over 50 years later so to call him a fake yellow bellied coward is unfair


Ali was ,is & always will be THE GREATEST!!! in my book

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I Agree 100%

Muhammad Ali should never be called 'a coward or yellow'.

But he was 'a fraud and a phony'.
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"I always thought of him as a {see below}."

Betty White

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...r8Kjo1-jLnslvf

"Why ah this ah Muhammad Ali go down as beloved figure, when I, THE GREAT MUSSOLINI, is so ah hated? At least I never dodged a war."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._biografia.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMFEqMCLR8

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

"Why ah this ah Muhammad Ali go down as beloved figure, when I, THE GREAT MUSSOLINI, is so ah hated? At least I never dodged a war."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._biografia.jpg

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'Il Duce' was a great man. There are many things he accomplished as the leader
of Italy. Many things.
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"They told me that Benito Mussolini was an 'Italian Outlaw'. Well I was 'outlawed'
by the censors as well. For having a 'Pair-of-Guns'.

Jane Russell

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=JN.M%2...d=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Age ............ 23 {1943}
Height ........ 5' 7"
Weight ....... 130 lbs.
Hair Color ... Dark Brown
Shape ......... 38" - 24" - 36"
Guns ........... 'D' {In holsters}

Remember rich young white men dodged the war by pulling political strings so jump on their case and call them cowards and frauds.

Ok imagine you are black in the 1960's for a sec which most of us might be to young to remember how that was i am guessing. When he won a fucking gold medal for the country the fuckers would not even serve him food why fight for a country who sees you as lower then them because of skin color. Look what this country did to Louis after all he did but to them was some dumb nigger and took all his shit anyhow never cut the guy a break. Ali failed the test was not wanted by the army and all the sudden when he is the heavyweight champ they want him to go to war wtf is that shit really come on now. Paxton must of got his wife fucked by Ali because to hate a man that i don't think he has ever meet is kinda weird and unhealthy for a person should focus on better things.

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Originally Posted by Master

Remember rich young white men dodged the war by pulling political strings so jump on their case and call them cowards and frauds.

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Are you referring to,

Former Vice President - Dick Cheney

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Originally Posted by Bill Paxtom

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Originally Posted by Master

Remember rich young white men dodged the war by pulling political strings so jump on their case and call them cowards and frauds.

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Are you referring to,

Former Vice President - Dick Cheney

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Bill Clinton

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Originally Posted by Master

Remember rich young white men dodged the war by pulling political strings so jump on their case and call them cowards and frauds.

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rich young white men dodged the war by pulling political strings, they were cowards and frauds.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMFEqMCLR8

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Brock, are you related to Mussolini, did you smoke hash before filming that vid. Do they have good hash in Turkey, I tried hash one time many years ago, it was interesting but I didn't have the urge to do it again.

Muhammad Ali ~ Black Muslim Minister

Just what does he preach, particularly.
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"All we know, is that when we met Minister Muhammad Ali, he told
us to forget about those 'bee-hive' hairdo's."

"He told us that we would never make it as a singing group. And to stop
doing what we were doing."

The Ronette's

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...ZwtFqQZpPA72Qw

http://funmozar.com/wp-content/uploa...amp=1433377105

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMFEqMCLR8

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Brock, are you related to Mussolini, did you smoke hash before filming that vid. Do they have good hash in Turkey, I tried hash one time many years ago, it was interesting but I didn't have the urge to do it again.

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they must have it down south near syria. i dont do that anymore since about 1988 but would try good hash for sure again.

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Originally Posted by Master

http://funmozar.com/wp-content/uploa...amp=1433377105

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Originally Posted by Master

Remember rich young white men dodged the war by pulling political strings so jump on their case and call them cowards and frauds.

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True... some men ran to Canada, some men claimed they were homosexuals, some pulled political strings.

Still, nobody is saying that those men a heroes who stood up to this unethical, illogical war.

When people think of Ali they think of a guy who selflessly gave away his prime years to protest an unpopular war, a crusader if you will. When in reality, if he wasn't drafted he wouldn't have made a peep about the war.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Master

Remember rich young white men dodged the war by pulling political strings so jump on their case and call them cowards and frauds.

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True... some men ran to Canada, some men claimed they were homosexuals, some pulled political strings.

Still, nobody is saying that those men a heroes who stood up to this unethical, illogical war.

When people think of Ali they think of a guy who selflessly gave away his prime years to protest an unpopular war, a crusader if you will. When in reality, if he wasn't drafted he wouldn't have made a peep about the war.

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Correct Bean-Man,

Cassius Clay 'fed off' the College Students and 'Anti-War Protesters' like 'a leech'.

The 'left-wing' Liberal Media ate it up, like eating an Ice Cream Cone.
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"What did Cassius Clay say today. Oh, suddenly he's an expert on Southeast Asian conflicts."

Doris Day

http://ie-commerce.net/library/500px/285/285063.jpg

Ali was stripped of his title and lost millions. Ali could have done a Joe Louis but he did not and for all that he should be applauded.

Ali lost the best years of his career and the momentum he built.

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Originally Posted by Master

Ali could have done a Joe Louis

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We don't know that that was an option, and it doesn't seem plausible that it was an option, given Ali's "I don't have no quarrel with no Viet Cong" speeches where he slammed the government for trying to force him go over and kill another brown-skinned person.

It seems doubtful that simply shaking hands with troops and putting on boxing exhibitions would have been against his "religious freedoms". They were probably going to make him fight, he knew they were probably going to make him fight, and he was determined not to go.

If he was a true hero he would have spoken about it before he was drafted. He would have refused to even take the draft screen process. Instead, he only spoke out about the war when he had to. It was never a "this war is wrong" stance, it was a "you can't send ME over there because it's a violation of MY religious freedom" stance, which is a selfish and garbage stance. People talk about what he lost, but at the end of the day a few years and maybe a few million were nothing compared to the chance of dying and losing everything over in Vietnam.

Ali made the right decision then because they may have put him in the line of fire. Stop criticising the man for making sensible decisions.

Not speaking to all haters, but..........

It must definitely EAT AWAY at the guts of the extreme haters to have seen all the adulation and love being poured on Muhammad Ali all these years. To have seen him get chosen to light the torch at the '96 Olympics in Atlanta. To see documentary after documentary made about Ali's life. Damn.... I'd hate to hate someone soooo much.... and then have to see his face on TV every once in awhile whether I want to or not. It must eat away at the haters' intestines to watch how society has moved on past the showboating some may not have liked.... past the dislike of many of Ali's refusal to be drafted. It must feel like being on a deserted island to keep calling him Clay, when the rest of the civilized world knows him as Muhammad Ali. But worst of all.......

It must absolutely KILL the haters to know that to millions and millions of people, Ali is, and will always be known as....

The Greatest


Tsk, tsk........ it's a damn shame.

:D

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Originally Posted by Master

Stop criticising the man for making sensible decisions.

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I'm not criticizing his decision. I would have dodged the draft too as opposed to running through the jungle with a backpack and an M16, trying to avoid gunfire, tigers and snakes.

I'm criticizing the fact that the general public and vast majority of boxing fans are rewriting history and making him out to be this great selfless anti-war crusader. He was scared of going over there like everyone else was and chose to give up a few years of his career in exchange for not having to go other there and get killed or end up as a cripple or amputee.

If we're gonna be real, let's be real. This is the real reason many whites hated Ali for refusing to be drafted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd9aIamXjQI


Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

For Once and For All.

Does anybody really think that Cassius Clay would have been 'humping it' in
the Rice Paddies of the Mekong River Delta in 1967 at {Age; 25}

Come on now.

Cassius wasn't qualified in any Military skills.

He would have had a 'cake job' at some Supply Depot in Guam or Hawaii.

Private First Class, Cassius M. Clay.

The reason he didn't want to be drafted, is because he thought he was a 'celebrity'
with special exemptions.

Ali joined the Elijah Muhammad/Wallace Fard Muhammad brand of Islam.....attending those weirdo sessions where they taught a distinctive form of Islam to members of the city's African-American population.
there had sprung an even more militant branch than the Nation of Islam itself. This new movement, known as the Temple People, identifies the prophet, Mr. W.D. Fard, with the god Allah. To Mr. Fard alone did they offer prayer and sacrifice. Since Mr. Fard has been deified, the Temple People raise to the rank of prophet the former Minister of Islam, Elijah Mohammed of Chicago. He is always referred to reverently as the ‘Prophet Elijah in Chicago'.

When Malcolm X went to perform hajj in Mecca, he realized how wrong this NOI branch was----they thought up until then that only black people were Muslims. He saw white Muslims and Chinese Muslims and Turks and Bosnian Muslims in Mecca, and it blew his mind.

Ali realized years later that he had bought into a bunch of racist pro-black NOI BULLSHIT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvpj-AprccY

When you are young you are very ideological but when you get older you mature. It happens to us all, even Bill.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

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For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

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For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

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Ali went against the system before the vietnam war, he changed his name, he joined the nation of Islam that is enough protest against the establishment than you can get.

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Originally Posted by Master

When you are young you are very ideological but when you get older you mature. It happens to us all, even Bill.

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Cassius Clay wasn't 'ideological'.

He was a 'clown' that was well known. Yes he could box too.
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"It's easy to become well known. All you have to do is become an 'Asshole'."

Sheree North

http://www.bing.com/th?id=JN.Gw1pSX6...=300&h=300&p=0

Ideological, clown and immature all the same thing.

If he was a true Muslim as he acted like he was {we already know he wasnt because as I stated he was a follower of the militant, racial version of Islam} he NEVER would have hurt so many peoples' feelings like Joe Frazier's for example. Never, never, never. He wanted to talk about/feign spirituality but his disgusting behavior towards Joe and several others of his own race WERE ANYTHING BUT holy, religious, spiritual, enlightened.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Who knows how many blacks felt the same way back in the 60's, but obviously didn't have the chance or nerve to express it.

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For sure and you can definitely question why a black man would want to go fight for a country that treated him like a second class citizen.

But again I have to ask where was this bravado BEFORE he was made eligible for the draft? Where were these brash opinions when it was other black men going over to Vietnam and getting killed? Did he use his platform to preach this to help out his fellow (black) man when he himself was in the clear? Or did he only become vocal when he dodged the draft and needed to address why he chose to do so?

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Ali went against the system before the vietnam war, he changed his name, he joined the nation of Islam that is enough protest against the establishment than you can get.

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You're absolutely right, Master. But I'll go one further.

To me it matters not whether he was an activist against the Vietnam war before he was drafted or not. Or whether he used his platform as a way of protesting or not. What matters is that he very clearly pointed out his thoughts about going over to 'Nam to fight for a society that treated him and every black like a 2nd class citizen.

One can never be sure how one would act under similar circumstances, but I'll say this: If I'd been draft eligible in the '60s and been born black..... I'd probably have had the same exact thoughts Ali expressed out loud while others didn't.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

To me it matters not whether he was an activist against the Vietnam war before he was drafted or not. Or whether he used his platform as a way of protesting or not.

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Well that's fine if it doesn't matter to you, but when discussing someone's actions and debating whether or not they constitute "heroic", you need to look at whether they were acting altruistically or egoistically.

Christopher Reeve donations to fund spinal cord and paralysis research went up considerably after he himself was paralysed. Do you look at him as a hero for donating so much of his time and resources to the cause? Or do you feel that his generosity was predictable, given his new vested interest in finding a cure for paralysis?

We can all have our definition of hero, but I would suggest than when a man refuses to stand up for a cause and help others until he himself becomes a victim and NEEDS to stand up for the cause... he is not heroic, but merely acting in a predictable way to protect his own self interest.

I think there's enough good about Ali where we don't have to twist shit around and try to give him credit for things he never did. He was the greatest HW of all time, he overcame a ton of adversity in the ring and proved he had a true warrior's heart. He was a great personality, he was smart, and he inspired millions around the world. But he could also be an asshole just like anyone else. He demonstrated very clearly that he could be a tremendous asshole.

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

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Originally Posted by Master

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

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Of course I read it. You'll notice I even quoted a portion of it.

Did you read what I wrote? My point is that it takes balls to selflessly stand up for a cause, even though you are not a victim of the cause. When you are standing up for a cause because you are the victim and it benefits you to support the cause... that's self preservation.

He dodged the draft and had to come up with a reason to save face.

I don't think he was a coward, but it seems like you guys feel that one is either a coward or a hero. There's a lot of middle ground in between there and that's where Ali lands IMO in terms of this particular topic.

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Originally Posted by Master

Did you read what Tito wrote?

No one is making him out to be a hero but he certainly was not a coward. He did what he did, for whatever reason, it took balls. That is the point and it was not an easy way out.

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Yeah Bean. That's pretty much my point. I'm not pushing the hero agenda, but I bristle when people that weren't even around during those times, nor had the same experiences in life that he did.... are quick to label him a coward..... or even suggest they know why he refused to be drafted. Like I've said before.... there are haters and there are HATERS. I know you can debate your point rationally because you're not a HATER the way I view them, which is they block out any rational counter arguments because it does not fuel their irrational hate.

My whole thing was that I thought he got way too much credit for dodging the draft. I think there are plenty of things he did that could give him the "hero" moniker, especially his in-ring stuff and his humanitarian work outside the ring.

He was an amazing guy, it's just that one thing that bugs me about his legacy.

Muhammad Ali was electrifying for not only Boxing, but for Society.............it was tumultuous times, things were changing fast, society was getting ripped in different directions, people were protesting, .....

old timers like Marciano and Joe Louis didnt like him much, guys like Liston hated Ali's big mouth bragging

There was this sudden rush of innovation then: Jimi Hendrix, Muhammad Ali, MLK, NOI, Black Panthers

He was a part of all that, his good looks and charisma and athleticism, his audacity..........

..............amazing times.

I rank Ali about #3 ATG Heavy after Joe Louis, Lennox Lewis...........

But he really hurt people along the way, good and decent people like Joe Frazier, Floyd Patterson, and insulted hurtfully some really respected guys like Archie Moore, and good guys like Ernie Terrell, etc.

It was much more than selling tickets, it was cruel. DOESNT MIX WITH HIS SUPPOSED SPIRITUALITY

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

My whole thing was that I thought he got way too much credit for dodging the draft. I think there are plenty of things he did that could give him the "hero" moniker, especially his in-ring stuff and his humanitarian work outside the ring.

He was an amazing guy, it's just that one thing that bugs me about his legacy.

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I don't think we're on opposite sides here. I've never considered him to be a hero for anything regarding his decision to dodge the draft. I do think, however, that it took guts for standing up to the establishment in that way, especially considering how much he stood to lose. It would've been easier for him to just go along with it, especially knowing (like HATER Bill said) that he wasn't going to be put in the front lines or anything like that.

But forget all that, for a moment. Think about the focus his actions put on the racial issues in America during those times. Think about all those blacks that said "Damn... he's right. Why should we go fight the Vietcong? They never called us niggers." Think about the whites that must've thought "Hmm.... maybe he's got a point there. We're asking them to put their lives on the line, but here in America we treat them like shit."

Bottom line is... many of us are glad he made the decision he made. And it cost him, too. Three prime years of his professional career. Think how much more he could've added to his professional legacy.

Lt. Col. Peter Dewey

The 1st American Soldier to die {shot and killed} in Vietnam.

I wonder how many of the Viet Cong called him 'a nigger'.

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=JN.Z5y...d=1.9&rs=0&p=0