Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Rookie Fan
I think this is unfair. I don't give a sh*t what The Ring sais. Baby Bull was the man at 135. Casa is done and he clearly loss his last fight bad. And I still think Diaz would beat Casa.
Cambell pulled an Ace off his sleave and fought the perfect fight to win. Diaz is still young and this loss might do one of two things. Either he decides to he wants to be a lawyer and leaves boxing or he becomes rededicated to the sport and comes back better than he was.
If I was a fair man I would say go be a lawyer and make some money while being nice and confertable in some leather chair at a big office. But I'm a boxing fan so I'm hoping for the latter option.
No offense but your part of the problem then! The Ring championship is the hardest to win... you gotta beat the man to be the man!
Diaz may have been considered the best fighter in the division before his loss to Campbell & Ring mag quite rightfully ranked him at #1. To be the champ you have to beat the champ simple as that! I agree Casamayor should have lost his last fight to Santa Cruz but the judges didn't score it that way & Joel kept his championship. History is scattered with bad decisions it's something we have to live with. But the fact is Casamayor got the nod. Had Santa Cruz won he'd be considered champ & not Diaz, so either way Diaz may have been the best fighter in the division just not the champion!
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
Last I checked age had nothing to do with P4P status....
The fact that Acelinos the biggest name on his resume speaks for itself.
Not sure if you realize this mate but Arces a future Hall of Famer.
Wether YOU agree with it or not is another story but fact is hes going to Canastota. You call Arce over hyped that is absurd as he showed fight in and fight out that he stepped in the ring to fight and try to win.
If I remember correctly in another thread you made a comment about Mijares fighting to a draw with Maldonado whom I'm pretty sure you said wait that names sounds familiar and you went searching and clicking on names on BoxRec and you found out he has since then lost to Vic and to Nonito not having seen the fight you thought it'd be smart of you to mention that Mijares fought to a draw agains that same guy... :rolleyes:
Look for the fight and watch it tell me if you think Maldonado fought the same. Truth is Maldonado was on one that night and IMO fought his ass off. Mijares himself didn't fight his fight and let off. No excuses hes bounced back and has beaten 2 World Class guys in Arce and Kawashima.
What makes me laugh is that you yourself have said plenty times that you don't rate the small guys and that you could beat them and punch them into the next world Buuuuut you sure as hell like to comment on them and make comments on how much they suck and don't deserve things. For someone whos not interested in the smaller guys you sure type like if you follow them closely.... :)
Because you loose a fight DOES NOT necessairly mean your off the P4P list. (This can depend on several things the way the fight went, who you lost to etc. etc.)
Well Bilbs I never one said he wasn't close to P4P.
I've never rated him but if I had to rate him pre-Nate fight I would guess somewhere around 11-16.
Hey Mick you've obviously not read my own posts correctly. If you look back you'll see I never said Diaz was number 10 p4p I said he belongs in the group vying for consideration for that 10th spot, at the time that would have been guys like Calderon, Hatton, Mijares, Kessler etc.
If someone had Calderon above him in the 10th spot I would have had no problem and said so.
Gamo came on here and starting shouting that Diaz was exposed and that anyone who believed in him beforehand was a fool!
I merely defended him and his position as being 'close' to p4p status. Certainly I would not have any complaints prior to the Campbell fight with him being labelled anywhere from 10 to say 13, certainly he wasn't lower in my eyes.
I was not bashing Mijares I was merely saying that he is an example of a fighter that other posters, Gamo included love with a passion. Nothing at all wrong with that but it's woefully inconsistent to laugh at people who believed in Juan Diaz's talents and delight in his exposure, but then to take the moral highground and insist nobody says anything bad about their own favourite fighter.
As for Arce being a future Hall of Famer, you very well may be rifght. But guess what Acelino Freitas might just sneak in alongside him, don't you think?
You say Maldonado was 'on' when he fought Mijares, I have no problem with that, but wouldn't you also say that Nate Campbell was 'on' when he fought the fight of his life against Juan Diaz?
Diaz is only 24, is still one of the most exciting fighters in boxing, and at such a young age held the most belts 3 legit titles of anybody currently in boxing.
He was making his 10th defense of his title and was unbeaten.
That IS borderline p4p status. Maybe you had him 12th or 13th rather than 10th but we are splitting hairs here.
To create a post and say people were fools for placing him at 10 in the p4p rankings rather 11th or 12th is just lame in my opinion.
And besides there are many fighters who but for a slight twist of fate wouldn't be in the rankings. Pavlik with a different referee may have lost the first Taylor fight in the 2nd round. Calderon with different judges may have not got the decision over Hugo Cazares.
And there's nothing to say they won't lose in their next fights either.
If Mijares loses to Munoz in his next fight should I make a post laughing at those who thought he was the shit?
Boxing is a tough sport and any fighter can lose on a given night. Diaz is still an exceptional talent and great for the sport of boxing.
He was up against a wiley veteran who was on fire that night and would have given any lightweight in the world problems.
He'll bounce back.:)
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Gamo
Majesty wrote:Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all."
To be honest,I stopped reading after that. I've seen MANY knowledgeable boxing writers and members here at Saddo's and other forums say Cotto would lose to Paulie,Quintana,Mosley etc. So your statement goes out of the window.
Those posters weren't me. So you can't throw my statement out the window.
I can't speak for the other forum members only myself, so using someone else's opinion to throw mine out the window is a bit childish.
I didnt pick Paulie to beat Cotto. I said Cotto would kill Quintana as soon as he turned his side to him(which is exactly how the process started) And I didnt pick Mosley to beat Cotto.
So you can't throw my opinion out the window because I picked consistantly with what I was saying, I didn't change it to make a point.
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
hitmandonny :rofmaoal:
What?
There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julius Rain
belts don't mean shyt, the juan p4p myth is a good example. thank you campbell for exposing the truth. if thats so then is campbell top p4p all of sudden? HELL NO!
So if Pac takes away JMM's belt today you won't mention that he is the ""New Champion"" ?
Yeah right ... Think Pac is plastered everywhere just imagine when he has the belt. Also as much of a draw that he is, the going rate will go up for his fights. So how is it that belts mean nothing ? They mean nothing to boxers with no personality or character. To those who do it is a pipeline to riches.
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hitmandonny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
hitmandonny :rofmaoal:
What?
There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?
No-one said he was ruined,it merely highlighted the FACT that people who were saying he was P4P were either bandwagon jumpers,had never seen him and followed the crowd or were genuine fans(Oumafan is the only one that comes to mind)
No-one said he was ruined,but he lost a fight he was HUGELY favoured to win,v a 36 year old who any P4P fighter should have dealt with adequately. General consensus was Diaz would win,easy or not,he would win. Well,he didn't.
Facts are facts.He's young.He can come back. But as before the fight and even more so after it,there are fighters out there who have accomplished more and certainly fought better fighters,and were and no so again,are,far more worthy of P4P status.
And Majesty,I'm not getting into a debate with you.It's pointless. You remind me of Starr/PGH angel eyes:debating with them is as enjoyable and productive as banging my head against a brick wall.
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hitmandonny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
hitmandonny :rofmaoal:
What?
There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?
No-one said he was ruined,it merely highlighted the FACT that people who were saying he was P4P were either bandwagon jumpers,had never seen him and followed the crowd or were genuine fans(Oumafan is the only one that comes to mind)
No-one said he was ruined,but he lost a fight he was HUGELY favoured to win,v a 36 year old who any P4P fighter should have dealt with adequately. General consensus was Diaz would win,easy or not,he would win. Well,he didn't.
Facts are facts.He's young.He can come back. But as before the fight and even more so after it,there are fighters out there who have accomplished more and certainly fought better fighters,and were and no so again,are,far more worthy of P4P status.
And Majesty,I'm not getting into a debate with you.It's pointless. You remind me of Starr/PGH angel eyes:debating with them is as enjoyable and productive as banging my head against a brick wall.
What has Majesty said to merit personal abuse other than disagree with you :confused:
Incidently what was your top 20 prior to the Campbell fight?
The loss to Cambell was a shock, but you can't backwards rationalise his acomplishments. What if Ivan Calderon, Kelly Pavlik, Ricky Hatton, Kessler, Cotto etc all lose their next fights, does that mean it was a laughable joke that they were considered fringe p4p stars as well?
Please I'm curious to know of all the dozens of fighters you think deserved to be higher than Diaz before last weekend based on merit?
you make it sound like he was an overratted club fighter but I expect even you would have had him in your top 15, only hating could convince otherwise.
Please show me all the other guys outside the top 10 who had compiled an undefeated record, had won 3/4 of all the recognised title belts in his division, and in succesive fights had forced a future Hall of Famer and a reigning world champ to quit on their stools from the relentless torture he was dishing out?
Show me all these other fighters who had made 9 straight defenses, still at only 24 and had virtually cleaned up their division in terms of belts and yet were nowhere in the p4p rankings?
You're just plain hating. Ok so he may have been only 13th in the p4p list and not 10th but to make a post ridiculing all those who had him 3 places higher than you did just makes you look like a moron.
No offense. :)
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hitmandonny
What?
There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?
No-one said he was ruined,it merely highlighted the FACT that people who were saying he was P4P were either bandwagon jumpers,had never seen him and followed the crowd or were genuine fans(Oumafan is the only one that comes to mind)
No-one said he was ruined,but he lost a fight he was HUGELY favoured to win,v a 36 year old who any P4P fighter should have dealt with adequately. General consensus was Diaz would win,easy or not,he would win. Well,he didn't.
Facts are facts.He's young.He can come back. But as before the fight and even more so after it,there are fighters out there who have accomplished more and certainly fought better fighters,and were and no so again,are,far more worthy of P4P status.
And Majesty,I'm not getting into a debate with you.It's pointless. You remind me of Starr/PGH angel eyes:debating with them is as enjoyable and productive as banging my head against a brick wall.
What has Majesty said to merit personal abuse other than disagree with you :confused:
Incidently what was your top 20 prior to the Campbell fight?
The loss to Cambell was a shock, but you can't backwards rationalise his acomplishments. What if Ivan Calderon, Kelly Pavlik, Ricky Hatton, Kessler, Cotto etc all lose their next fights, does that mean it was a laughable joke that they were considered fringe p4p stars as well?
Please I'm curious to know of all the dozens of fighters you think deserved to be higher than Diaz before last weekend based on merit?
you make it sound like he was an overratted club fighter but I expect even you would have had him in your top 15, only hating could convince otherwise.
Please show me all the other guys outside the top 10 who had compiled an undefeated record, had won 3/4 of all the recognised title belts in his division, and in succesive fights had forced a future Hall of Famer and a reigning world champ to quit on their stools from the relentless torture he was dishing out?
Show me all these other fighters who had made 9 straight defenses, still at only 24 and had virtually cleaned up their division in terms of belts and yet were nowhere in the p4p rankings?
You're just plain hating. Ok so he may have been only 13th in the p4p list and not 10th but to make a post ridiculing all those who had him 3 places higher than you did just makes you look like a moron.
No offense. :)
Agree with you completely. Great post man.
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Cheers buddy, I like Gamo a lot, but his he does get on his soap box from time to time and spit out bile at those who disagree with him.
Every single expert in boxing would have had Juan Diaz on the fringes of p4p, maybe not quite the top 10 but damn close. He had done more to unify his division than any other fighter has done to unify theirs.
Only Calzaghe who is relinquishing to move up held as many belts.
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Bilbo,your posts go out of the window when you yourself diss fighters like Mijars,guys you have barely seen yet ask questions about/make disparaging comments about. And Diaz was at best outside the top 10,which goes back to my original point in that he was NOT top 10 and people who had him there were over rating him/bandwagon jumpers. If you had noticed the point I was making,you would not have continued to ramble on and on and on...
For you to accuse me of hating is ironic and ridiculous. you're the one who used to make threads saying little guys are crap etc etc. As for Majesty,he knows I was playing with him,so what concern is it of yours.
And 3 places is alot in P4P lists "moron". Ok,I'll have Floyd at 4 instead of 1.Does that not make a difference?Please stop making yourself look idiotic. You jumped on a bandwagon,got it wrong and now are tryong to cover up. In fact,I can guarantee that these guys who ahd Diz top 10 P4P have only seen his last 2 fights.;) 3 at most.
Mick sid it best:
What makes me laugh is that you yourself have said plenty times that you don't rate the small guys and that you could beat them and punch them into the next world Buuuuut you sure as hell like to comment on them and make comments on how much they suck and don't deserve things. For someone whos not interested in the smaller guys you sure type like if you follow them closely...
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Gamo
Bilbo,your posts go out of the window when you yourself diss fighters like Mijars,guys you have barely seen yet ask questions about/make disparaging comments about. And Diaz was at best outside the top 10,which goes back to my original point in that he was NOT top 10 and people who had him there were over rating him/bandwagon jumpers. If you had noticed the point I was making,you would not have continued to ramble on and on and on...
For you to accuse me of hating is ironic and ridiculous. you're the one who used to make threads saying little guys are crap etc etc. As for Majesty,he knows I was playing with him,so what concern is it of yours.
And 3 places is alot in P4P lists "moron". Ok,I'll have Floyd at 4 instead of 1.Does that not make a difference?Please stop making yourself look idiotic. You jumped on a bandwagon,got it wrong and now are tryong to cover up. In fact,I can guarantee that these guys who ahd Diz top 10 P4P have only seen his last 2 fights.;) 3 at most.
Mick sid it best:
What makes me laugh is that you yourself have said plenty times that you don't rate the small guys and that you could beat them and punch them into the next world Buuuuut you sure as hell like to comment on them and make comments on how much they suck and don't deserve things. For someone whos not interested in the smaller guys you sure type like if you follow them closely...
I've got nothing against Mijares Gamo I just thought you had him in your p4p list. I've seen him in some lists on here. Glad you wern't that premature.
Incidently which fighters did you rate higher than Diaz prior to the Campbell fight.
I already stated I had him 11th behind Calderon but wouldn't object either way.
How many fighters did u place above him and why?
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
[quote=El Gamo;479870]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hitmandonny
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pacstraightleft
hitmandonny :rofmaoal:
What?
There are a lot of posters here that sound as if Campbell ended Diaz.
Why must an undef3eated fighter be deemed ruined because of one loss?
No-one said he was ruined,it merely highlighted the FACT that people who were saying he was P4P were either bandwagon jumpers,had never seen him and followed the crowd or were genuine fans(Oumafan is the only one that comes to mind)
No-one said he was ruined,but he lost a fight he was HUGELY favoured to win,v a 36 year old who any P4P fighter should have dealt with adequately. General consensus was Diaz would win,easy or not,he would win. Well,he didn't.
Facts are facts.He's young.He can come back. But as before the fight and even more so after it,there are fighters out there who have accomplished more and certainly fought better fighters,and were and no so again,are,far more worthy of P4P status.
[quote]
So is that the purpose of the thread to highlight peoples mistakes?
The common consensus was that Diaz would win, but in truth a lot of Boxing fans had picked Campell. Violent Demise and Mick for example each picked Campbell. Any man who steps into a boxing ring has a chance of beating an opponent of the same weight, so in reality it's not all that surprising. After all when viewed subjectively each man ebntering the ring has a 1 in 2 chance of winning. So the common consensus has little bearing on Diaz, in fact it acts much more as a reflection against the general boxing public for having such faith in one fighter.
Pound for Pound lists are personal. Everyone's should be unique and a reflection of their own personal tastes and exposures. Let people have their lists.
Re: Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....
I find it pretty unbelievable to read how this whole thread started. I'm guessing the majority of people still have Diaz in their top 20 P4P. A split decision loss and one off night doesn't make a fighter poor. This is what is wrong with boxing fans today. Gamo buddy, I respect alot of what you have to say but you said that people who rated him P4P were jumping on a bandwagon, but you're pretty damn quick to jump on the bandwagon of bagging on the guy. He has 1 friggin loss!!! In my eyes he's still P4P the best lightweight in the world, he just had an off night.
