How would a Roy Jones Jr Vs Marvin Hagler fight have ended

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Quit hagging from Roy's nuts? How about you quit hanging from the 80's nuts, and get a functioning brian while you are at at. Leonard didn't admit honestly that he couldn't beat Hagler, only in jest, or else he would have never taken the bout. He had no reason to go back into the ring. Anybody that says Ray just stole the last 30 seocnds is stupid and didn't watch the fight. Stop listening to commentators and watch fights for yourself.

As for Hearns having more power then Jones I am calling bullshit right now. P4P at 147 Hearns did, but not in literal comparison, first of all Emanuel Steward said that Hearns didn't actually hit that hard, but he was sneaky with that right hand. Whereas Roy had pure power, he ko'ed 21 of his first 22 opponents, he stopped a lot of tough guys who had never been stopped before Melinga. He landed maybe the hardest shot ever landed below cruiserweight with that right hand to the ribs against Hill... Hill had never been stopped before that punch rocked him. Look what Roy did to Reggie Johnson, Merqui Sosa... the list goes on.

Roy may have not had the best competition of any fighter ever, but he took out plenty of guys that had among the best chins in the sport when they fought, all the way up to 175. Hell, Roy went up to heavyweight and stunned Ruiz with one of his right hands. I am not even saying that he would have knocked out Hagler, but Hagler wouldn't have been able to walk through Roy shots like it was a day in the park.

Look at Roy against James Toney who came forward during that fight when he could, WHo has had a better chin then James Toney? Probably nobody. Roy couldn't hurt him either, but Roy got to James a few times with body shots, he was able to stay away from Toney all night long, and the few punches James did land, Roy took them quite easily.

Hagler is a great fighter, but Roy is too fast, and too big for him. Roy is a way better fighter on his back foot then Hearns ever was, and he was a way bigger guy that hit harder p4p then Leonard, and also quicker at middleweight/SMW then Ray was. Roy was also great against southpaws.

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Listen, T-Bag, I ain't hanging from the 80's nuts, but to say that Roy would make Hagler look silly was a stupid thing to say. Stop judging Hagler on his last 5 fights, unless you want me to judge Jones by the Tarver and Glen Johnson fights.

As for Jones "pure power," what the hell do thing Hagler would have done with Tate, Sosa, Reggie Johnson, and Malinga, and old ass-Pazienza? Or the series of bums he fought for the first 20 fights.

I've repeatedly said that that I would pick Roy on points in this one. Hagler, even with is his being the smaller man, in his prime, is better than anybody Jones ever fought, James Toney included, and I'm about as a big a James Toney fan as you will find. Deal with it.

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T-bag? Good one... idiot. What would have Hagler done against Reggie Johnson, Merqui Sosa, Malinga? Certianly nothing as impressive as Roy did. Malinga had lost a Split decidion to Chris EUbanks then went 10 rounds against the feared NIgel Benn, and Roy one punched him in the 6th round.

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Now you really sound stupid.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Also people that are arguing that Hagler was a different fighter when he was younger. Well that would have helped Roy out more, Hagler liked to box a lot more in his prime when his only chance against Roy would be to come with relentless pressure, however Hagler was still a counter puncher in his prime even when coming forward, and there is no way you could fight that way against Roy. Roy was way too fast for Hagler to fight in that style. Hagler tried to fighting that way against Duran and that made that fight a lot closer than it could have been because Duran was faster, and a better boxer then Hagler, it cost Hagler against Leonard early when he tried to outbox him.

James Toney was a great fighter at coming forward and countering, in a fight much closer, but similar to Chavez-Taylor, James Toney had been landing hard right hands against the supremely gifted Michael Nunn all night, until he turned it up late, and Nunn succumbed to the pressure and Toney's power. Toney came forward trying to let Roy lead, and Roy was too fast for TOney to react.

Now you can compare overall, all you want of Hagler to TOney, but Toney is way up there in terms of the best middleweights ever, easily in the top 15 or 20(this being the deepest divison ever IMO). Anyways TOney regardless of his lower rank was faster, had a same caliber of chin, and was a better counter punch then Hagler. He was also harder to hit, but Roy was too elusive, too good at moving, too good at countering. Nobody could counter like ROy and it catches everyone off guard.

Thats why I think Hearns has a better chance against Roy because he would use the range which Roy showed that he was less comfortable in dealing with when he faced Hopkins and Griffin.

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Chinny-ass Hearns would stand a better chance against Roy? Who has been beating you with retard stick lately T-Bag? Against Roy, with all the power you are touting? You can't have it both ways. By the case you are making, Jones should be able to land the KO blow against Hearns. We all know it can be done. Leonard did it. Barkley did it. Doesn't Jones have better power than Barkley, or at least enough more speed and skill to insure he could a finishing blow on Hearns? I'm the one who needs to get a functioning brain? Please.


Toney was a top 15 middleweight ever? Toney may be a top 20 MW, but Hagler is top 10 certainly, and possibly top 5.

Jones KO's Hearns, and wins a hard fought, competitive decision against Hagler. That's really the end of it. That's not 80's nut-hugging, it just realistic.

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Did you drop out of school, and onto your head? Do you know nothing about styles making fights? Roy wasn't a guy that would brawl with anyone. Did you see Leonard outbox Hearns, no? Thats because he couldn't. Hearns was next to impossible to outbox. He had good speed, great length and good enough power AND accuracy to KO Jones. Hearns landed punches nobody else could against you. I still think Roy wins this more often then not because he was bigger and faster then Hearns, but Hearns had a better puncher's chance against Roy then Hagler ever did because he was superior in terms of pure boxing, and that was what gave Roy a lot of trouble. Once again Ray sold out to land punches on Hearns, Barkley was brawler, so was HAgler when he fought Hearns, thats how you beat Hearns easily, but look when Leonard tried to box him, look when Benitez tried to, What Gerald M spar with Hearns. You couldnt' stay on the outside.

Hearns was a much more dangerous opponent for Roy, and your arguments are not even debating against.

As for James Toney I mean him as a 160 and 168 pound fighter. ALso Hagler deserves #2 behind Greb, way too many old school fighters get over appreciated.

I never said Jones wouldn't beat anybody on Hagler's list. Actually, Leonard wouldn't fight a prime Jones, just like he wouldnt' fight a prime Hagler, and if he did, he would look silly because all he would do is run all night. A prime Hagler destroys prime Leonard, and Leonard knows it, too. Hagler, old Hagler, sparked prime Hearns in round 3. Mustafa Hamsho probably means nothing to you? You probably rate Reggie Johnson higher.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

I never said Jones wouldn't beat anybody on Hagler's list. Actually, Leonard wouldn't fight a prime Jones, just like he wouldnt' fight a prime Hagler, and if he did, he would look silly because all he would do is run all night. A prime Hagler destroys prime Leonard, and Leonard knows it, too. Hagler, old Hagler, sparked prime Hearns in round 3. Mustafa Hamsho probably means nothing to you? You probably rate Reggie Johnson higher.

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I've only seen Mustafa look good against Benitez which is admirable, but I've seen Benitez look pretty bad when he hasn't trained, he was also an old man fighting quite a bit above his natural wieght. I do think Reggie would be a tougher opponent, I have him beating the Mustafa that fought Lalonda or Rocci quite badly. Especially considering Reggie was a sparring partner for Roy earlier in his career so the he knew what was coming up in terms of Roy's speed and abilities.

That being said, don't take what I am saying personally, I don't mean it, I am just fucking with you. Daxx is still crying about me every 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Also people that are arguing that Hagler was a different fighter when he was younger. Well that would have helped Roy out more, Hagler liked to box a lot more in his prime when his only chance against Roy would be to come with relentless pressure, however Hagler was still a counter puncher in his prime even when coming forward, and there is no way you could fight that way against Roy. Roy was way too fast for Hagler to fight in that style. Hagler tried to fighting that way against Duran and that made that fight a lot closer than it could have been because Duran was faster, and a better boxer then Hagler, it cost Hagler against Leonard early when he tried to outbox him.

James Toney was a great fighter at coming forward and countering, in a fight much closer, but similar to Chavez-Taylor, James Toney had been landing hard right hands against the supremely gifted Michael Nunn all night, until he turned it up late, and Nunn succumbed to the pressure and Toney's power. Toney came forward trying to let Roy lead, and Roy was too fast for TOney to react.

Now you can compare overall, all you want of Hagler to TOney, but Toney is way up there in terms of the best middleweights ever, easily in the top 15 or 20(this being the deepest divison ever IMO). Anyways TOney regardless of his lower rank was faster, had a same caliber of chin, and was a better counter punch then Hagler. He was also harder to hit, but Roy was too elusive, too good at moving, too good at countering. Nobody could counter like ROy and it catches everyone off guard.

Thats why I think Hearns has a better chance against Roy because he would use the range which Roy showed that he was less comfortable in dealing with when he faced Hopkins and Griffin.

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Chinny-ass Hearns would stand a better chance against Roy? Who has been beating you with retard stick lately T-Bag? Against Roy, with all the power you are touting? You can't have it both ways. By the case you are making, Jones should be able to land the KO blow against Hearns. We all know it can be done. Leonard did it. Barkley did it. Doesn't Jones have better power than Barkley, or at least enough more speed and skill to insure he could a finishing blow on Hearns? I'm the one who needs to get a functioning brain? Please.


Toney was a top 15 middleweight ever? Toney may be a top 20 MW, but Hagler is top 10 certainly, and possibly top 5.

Jones KO's Hearns, and wins a hard fought, competitive decision against Hagler. That's really the end of it. That's not 80's nut-hugging, it just realistic.

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Did you drop out of school, and onto your head? Do you know nothing about styles making fights? Roy wasn't a guy that would brawl with anyone. Did you see Leonard outbox Hearns, no? Thats because he couldn't. Hearns was next to impossible to outbox. He had good speed, great length and good enough power AND accuracy to KO Jones. Hearns landed punches nobody else could against you. I still think Roy wins this more often then not because he was bigger and faster then Hearns, but Hearns had a better puncher's chance against Roy then Hagler ever did because he was superior in terms of pure boxing, and that was what gave Roy a lot of trouble. Once again Ray sold out to land punches on Hearns, Barkley was brawler, so was HAgler when he fought Hearns, thats how you beat Hearns easily, but look when Leonard tried to box him, look when Benitez tried to, What Gerald M spar with Hearns. You couldnt' stay on the outside.

Hearns was a much more dangerous opponent for Roy, and your arguments are not even debating against.

As for James Toney I mean him as a 160 and 168 pound fighter. ALso Hagler deserves #2 behind Greb, way too many old school fighters get over appreciated.

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I hear what you are saying about Hearns length against Jones, but Jones would have landed and Hearns was chinny. And Hearns like to brawl and lost his fight plan and discipline. Here's the thing. Hagler was a very good technical boxer, but it wasn't his greatest strength. Hagler was at his best when he was a pressure fighter who could use his boxing skills when necessary. Hagler had a complete game and I don't think a prime Hagler would have come out the mindset to outbox Jones. He would have understood that he needed to pressure him. Roy struggled with great boxers, but he only lost to a southpaw with good power and brought the fight to Roy, and a pressure orthodox fighter. Granted, both Tarver and Johnson caught Roy on the back 9, but in some ways, Hagler at his prime is best was Tarver and Johnson combined, minus the reach, adding better speed. This spells all the makings of a tough fight for even a prime Roy.

Yeah, styles do make fights, and Hagler's style would give Jones more problems than Toney gave him. Toney came forward, but at his core, James Toney is still a counterpuncher, and pressure is not really his own game. Jones could beat Toney has his own game...and, let's not forget, Toney was a bit weight drained. This is not to say that Jones wouldn't have won anyway, but the fight would have been closer if Toney was better conditioned.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

I never said Jones wouldn't beat anybody on Hagler's list. Actually, Leonard wouldn't fight a prime Jones, just like he wouldnt' fight a prime Hagler, and if he did, he would look silly because all he would do is run all night. A prime Hagler destroys prime Leonard, and Leonard knows it, too. Hagler, old Hagler, sparked prime Hearns in round 3. Mustafa Hamsho probably means nothing to you? You probably rate Reggie Johnson higher.

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I've only seen Mustafa look good against Benitez which is admirable, but I've seen Benitez look pretty bad when he hasn't trained, he was also an old man fighting quite a bit above his natural wieght. I do think Reggie would be a tougher opponent, I have him beating the Mustafa that fought Lalonda or Rocci quite badly. Especially considering Reggie was a sparring partner for Roy earlier in his career so the he knew what was coming up in terms of Roy's speed and abilities.

That being said, don't take what I am saying personally, I don't mean it, I am just fucking with you. Daxx is still crying about me every 10 seconds.

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No offense, taken, T-bag, and I hope you don't take offense to my new name for you, but the Hamsho who fought Lalonde was already ruined by two brutal beating by Hagler. Either way, either Jones would spark Hamsho the same way Hagler would spark Reggie Johnson. Similar level fighters, really, though I think Hamsho at his best is a notch up from Johnson.

Anyway this debate is fair game. It's 95% boxing argument and 5% personal insult. If that's not OK around here, it's a sad state of affairs. That problem comes when we stop arguing about Jones/Hagler/ETC with with occasional personal attack and make the thread on the main board completely about who is gay, retarded, has carnal relations with sheep, or still lives in there mother's basement. I hope Daxx can live with level of discourse. Feel free to start a Rozzysean is a tool and a wanker on the other boards.

Fuck that I don't start shit on the other boards, I say dumb stuff in the heat of the moment, but either than that I don't hold grudges or spam about people.

As for Hagler KO'ing Johnson, watch this combination at the end of the third round and I am hard pressed to find anything Hagler has ever landed that looked anything like this, bar non my favorite RJJ knockdown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP5uH...eature=related

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Originally Posted by Thread Stealer

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Marvin has a similar style to that of Glenn Johnson, only with more speed and accuracy.

Ideal guy to beat Jones at Middle.

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I don't really see the comparison of Hagler and Johnson, at least not with Hagler's usual style, but I suppose if he fights Jones like he did Hearns (which I said earlier might be the best game plan), then yeah, there's some similarities since Hagler will be up close on Jones and swarming.

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Hagler's usual style was actually more stylish and polished than his showings with Hearns.

However when he adopted the swarming and aggressive mentality he near always got impressive results.
With Hearns the KO, with Mugabi the KO, with Minter the KO, with Leonard he won rounds he had been losing boxing.

Haglers chin and ability to corner his man or trap him on the ropes (Leonard is actually a good example,) would have pinned Roy and although Hagler would have been clipped he would have scored heavily.

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Originally Posted by Markusdarkus

I think alot of people forgetting how great Hagler was last 70s early 80s.

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I'm not, he wins by KO for me.

Reading the Taeth-Rozzydean argument is making me wish that Roy Jones had come along 10 years earlier even more than before. I have to say of the 4 greats (Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Leonard) I think that Hagler would have the best chance of beating Roy. I'd still definitley go with Roy though. The only thing is Roy is short of these kind of superstar names on his record, but to blame him is crazy. I mean he took over the LHW division completely and barring Michaelcewski (who got beat off Gonzalez) fought everybody and won no problem. Its not his fault that there was no greats to fight.

In my eyes his moving up to HW and winning a title up there was a bigger achievement than he is given credit for. I mean he started at 154lbs and won a portion of the HW title. Thats like JCC jr moving up to HW and beating Ruiz. Sorry but no way.

As it stands though Toney and Hopkins are the biggest names on his resume but we have got to remember that these are 2 of the greatest fighters of the last generation. People talk about how great Calzaghe is but the best name on his list is a 43 year old Hopkins that lets face it caused Joe far more trouble even as a pensioner than he ever caused Roy Jones when Hopkins was 28.

Listen Roy is bigger then all the guys mention pretty much why would we match them when there peaks are at different weights. Also Mr Rozz how can Sugar Ray Leonard face a prime Hagler when his prime was at welterweight that is just stupid. And look Ray at least had the balls to move up in weight even Haglers weight and then some. Did Hagler ever leave his comfart zone i think not. I am sorry but i am sick of people bitching about how Ray did this and that and Hagler was this and that. Look Sugar Ray Leonard beat Hagler and that all there is to it. As for Sugar Ray Leonard vs Roy Jones Jr. well all i got to say is I think that Sugar Ray Leonard was better pound for pound.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Thread Stealer

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Marvin has a similar style to that of Glenn Johnson, only with more speed and accuracy.

Ideal guy to beat Jones at Middle.

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I don't really see the comparison of Hagler and Johnson, at least not with Hagler's usual style, but I suppose if he fights Jones like he did Hearns (which I said earlier might be the best game plan), then yeah, there's some similarities since Hagler will be up close on Jones and swarming.

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Hagler's usual style was actually more stylish and polished than his showings with Hearns.

However when he adopted the swarming and aggressive mentality he near always got impressive results.
With Hearns the KO, with Mugabi the KO, with Minter the KO, with Leonard he won rounds he had been losing boxing.

Haglers chin and ability to corner his man or trap him on the ropes (Leonard is actually a good example,) would have pinned Roy and although Hagler would have been clipped he would have scored heavily.

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Well yeah, Hagler was usually a boxer-puncher, so that's why I said I didn't really see the comparison with Glen Johnson.

With Mugabi, he was boxing well and jabbing Mugabi silly, and also tearing Mugabi up on the inside with body shots. Kenny Bayless said both of them had blood in their urine afterwards.

I think Hagler's best gameplan against Roy is the aggressive whirlwind who fought Hearns.

Watch Leonard vs Hagler but picture Leonard not having a chin.

Hagler KO.

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Originally Posted by Thread Stealer

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Thread Stealer

I don't really see the comparison of Hagler and Johnson, at least not with Hagler's usual style, but I suppose if he fights Jones like he did Hearns (which I said earlier might be the best game plan), then yeah, there's some similarities since Hagler will be up close on Jones and swarming.

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Hagler's usual style was actually more stylish and polished than his showings with Hearns.

However when he adopted the swarming and aggressive mentality he near always got impressive results.
With Hearns the KO, with Mugabi the KO, with Minter the KO, with Leonard he won rounds he had been losing boxing.

Haglers chin and ability to corner his man or trap him on the ropes (Leonard is actually a good example,) would have pinned Roy and although Hagler would have been clipped he would have scored heavily.

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Well yeah, Hagler was usually a boxer-puncher, so that's why I said I didn't really see the comparison with Glen Johnson.

With Mugabi, he was boxing well and jabbing Mugabi silly, and also tearing Mugabi up on the inside with body shots. Kenny Bayless said both of them had blood in their urine afterwards.

I think Hagler's best gameplan against Roy is the aggressive whirlwind who fought Hearns.

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When Hagler swarmed against Tommy you didn't see any similarity to Glenn?
Tons of pressure, loads of punches, chin tucked and increasing power as he gained momentum?

dead right, pure aggression would serve him best with Jones.

Hagler I feel had his best success with Leonard when being very aggressive and rough.

After careful consideration I have voted RJJ PTS