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In truth Valuev is a very poor boxer. He does pose problems because of his sheer size though and for Holyfield to have the conditioning to (imo) overcome him deserves some credit given his age.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
You know what I agree, in their first meeting Ruiz outhustled Valuev completely and was never hurt or in danger himself.
Valuev will end up tarnished by his management and gift decisions, just as Primo Carnera was.
I agree with Holyfield. He probably would have beat him, probably even decisively imo. He never said he was greater than him, just that he could beat him. I think Mayweathers claim to be greater than SRR or Briggs claim to be greater than Ali are obsurd. Holyfields remark is not.
Right, Holyfield didnt just say hed beat him, he said hed tear him up!
Like he tore up Larry Holmes and Bert Cooper? Both were faced while in Holyfields prime and both were either washed up or not very good;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
And Cooper came whithin a whisker of taking him out, but Holyfield recovered and rendered a terrible beating Oon "Smokin" Bert.
Say what you will about how bad Carnera was (he was bad) but he went up against the BEST. Valuev will NEVER fight the best heavyweights because he will get humiliated...Nicolay Valuev, John Ruiz, AND Evander Holyfield have turned the WBA Heavyweight title into a joke. Sure Evander is a great fighter but he's nowhere near Joe Louis' class.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight of all-time he successfully defended his title 25 times, sure he lost to Schmeling but he also avenged that loss in brutal fashion.
As for Joe Louis' "weak competition": Max Baer, Jim Braddock, Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Max Schmeling, Rocky Marciano, Billy Conn, and Jack Sharkey....that's pretty good competition as far as I can tell.
We all know Joe is superman in your eyes LyleQuote:
Originally Posted by LyleSay what you will about how bad Carnera was (he was bad) but he went up against the BEST. Valuev will NEVER fight the best heavyweights because he will get humiliated...Nicolay Valuev, John Ruiz, AND Evander Holyfield have turned the WBA Heavyweight title into a joke. Sure Evander is a great fighter but he's nowhere near Joe Louis' class.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight of all-time he successfully defended his title 25 times, sure he lost to Schmeling but he also avenged that loss in brutal fashion.
As for Joe Louis' "weak competition": Max Baer, Jim Braddock, Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Max Schmeling, Rocky Marciano, Billy Conn, and Jack Sharkey....that's pretty good competition as far as I can tell.
But if you look into that competition list a little closer it's not that hot.
Max Baer was a killer puncher, but he was a clown and an inconsistent trainer.
Jim Braddock was a mediocre at best fighter, an over achiever and not even a natural heavyweight.
Joe Walcott I'll give you....The Bomber beat him in his prime.
Ezzard Charles was also great, but a light heavy naturally and suffered severe health problems.
Max Schmeling exposed Louis' defensive shortcomings in their first fight.
Rocky fought an old Joe and administered a savage beating.
Billy Conn was a Light Heavy and Jack Sharkey is hardly a Mike Tyson.
Making 25 defenses is a sign of greatness just because of the consistency and dedication that is required.That alone makes him greater that Holyfield.
And Evander Holyfield lost to Michael Moorer one of the weakest heavyweight champions of all-time. Evander also lost to flash in the pan Riddick Bowe TWICE and was KO'd by him. Evander also got schooled by Chris Byrd, James Toney, and Larry Donald! Evander lost to JOHN RUIZ.....JOHN FUCKING RUIZ and you're saying he's better than Joe Louis.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Joe Louis lost 3 times...Evander has lost 10 times vs MUCH weaker opposition.
Moorer....indeed only a mediocre champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleAnd Evander Holyfield lost to Michael Moorer one of the weakest heavyweight champions of all-time. Evander also lost to flash in the pan Riddick Bowe TWICE and was KO'd by him. Evander also got schooled by Chris Byrd, James Toney, and Larry Donald!Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Joe Louis lost 3 times and was KO'd twice...Evander has lost 10 times vs MUCH weaker opposition.
However, with the evolution of the heavyweight division (size,) any fighter should have the ability to KO another.
I believe this applies to Holyfield.
Louis, a much smaller man than Holyfield could not possibly defend a title 25 times against such large men without some setbacks.
As for Bowe, I cannot deem him a "flash in the pan." He had the potential to be a great fighter and blew it. I could see him compared to Max Baer in that sense, although Baer certainly didn't neglect his body the way Bowe did.
A man can only fight what is in front of him in his era. He left a great legacy that should not be taken lightly. Joe v Holyfield at Cruiserweight who do you think would have won?
Great post again man, it's crazy the type of crap Louis and Marciano catch all because someone like Ali got blessed not only with great talent but with other great fighters for them to fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano ducked NOBODY and they are two of the finest champions in the history of boxing
And Joe Louis was just as big as Evander...6'2 76" reach compared to Evander's 6'2 1/2 78" reach
Lyle you forget the age Holyfeild was when he was losing i mean when Joe was his age he was getting knocked out as well that dont mean shit. Prime for Prime i think Holyfeild would beat Louis out husle him as well he was faster and had a chin that was better then Louis look at the size difference of there competion the 90s was right behind the 70s in competion if you ask me Louis era was a weak one hell he almost lost to lightheavy which was the first time he fought there I have no problem saying Holyfeild could win he fought better competion and was able to win the title back i would favor Holyfeild to win he was better in almost everything i can think of and i dont see why people even care taht much.
It's funny how a fighter who wins a bunch had weak opponents whenever it helps a different point of view.
Joe Louis was dominant in a way we have NEVER and possibly will never see. From his loss to Schmeling in 1936 until he lost the title to Ezzard Charles in 1950 he went 34-0-0 with 29 KO's 1 DQ and 4 decisions....that's a hell of a prime of a career for anyone with any opposition.
Lets not forget he did not fight when he was in the army and could keep his titles not to mention when you are fighting bartenders it is easy to make defences and you call Moorer bad well Schemling was even worse and he was past hime prime as well so i did not get the point not only that he knocked Louis out and dominated him hell Holyfeild with condtion of stiff hart lost by a point and both avenged it but Holyfeild lose was not near as bad let me ask you Lyle do people call Holyfeilds comeption the bum of the month club i think not my friend and there is reason why.
Joe fought and beat who was put infront of him....if Holyfield fought as often as Joe Louis did he'd find himself fighting bartenders because he would have gone through all the top heavyweights before the end.
Imagine if Wladimir Klitschko fought 7 times in one year like Joe did in 1941 who would he be fighting????