Joe Calzaghe: Andre Ward is good but beatable

People always downplay Lacy and to a degree that is correct, but he injured his shoulder and was never the same. Everyone stateside was picking Lacy. I remember it as I was new to the forum and couldn't fathom what they were all going on about.

Then there was the huge clamour to fight Kessler and Calzaghe did so. It was a HUGE fight, but again people are dissing Kessler saying he wasn't very good.

They were huge wins and Calzaghe was predicted to lose by many and then when he does fight Hopkins, he did it with relative ease after a shaky start and then everyone says 'Oh but Hopkins was old'. Well, has he continued to win his big fights? Jones Jr certainly hasn't. Is he old or not? Seemingly not, but too old for Calzaghe and yet still great to be winning titles afterwards.

People just don't like Calzaghe and don't want to give him his dues.

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

That's a little harsh...he defeated several top-10s, and destroyed Glen Johnson and Trinidad when they were undefeated. He also took 4 rounds off of a prime Roy Jones, and did MUCH better against him than Toney did in a fight that was more hyped and totally one-sided. He was on the P4P list for a number of years, and deservedly in the top 3 for a few of them.

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It is harsh, absolutely. Hopkins has a credible record, but so does Joe Calzaghe. It is hypocrisy to criticize one and give the other a free pass. They both have credible opposition AND their share of filler.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Who did Hopkins beat at MW to prove his greatness?

His biggest wins were small men moving up. DLH who had really already lost to Sturm and Trinidad who spent most of his career at WW.

Then after Hopkins moves up you have loads more men being called up way beyond their optimum fighting weights.

Hopkins wins over Trinidad and Tarver were significant, but no more significant than Calzaghe beating Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins himself.

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Hopkins's win over Trinidad was substantially more significant than Calzaghe's wins over Lacy and Kessler. Trinidad was an undefeated, top P4P fighter, and Hopkins destroyed him. In terms of significance of the opposition, of the three wins you listed, only Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is comparable.

At middleweight, most of Hopkins's defense were against top-10 fighters in the weight class. They weren't "greats," but on balance, they were probably more credible than most of the people Calzaghe defended against.

I only started talking about Hopkins's record to challenge the claim that he wasn't great. I never took the position that Calzaghe wasn't great; clearly he was. If I recall correctly, the only things I said "against" Calzaghe was that he wouldn't destroy Ward (nor would Ward destroy him), and that it's simply not true that he cleaned out the 168-pound division.

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Who did Hopkins beat at MW to prove his greatness?

His biggest wins were small men moving up. DLH who had really already lost to Sturm and Trinidad who spent most of his career at WW.

Then after Hopkins moves up you have loads more men being called up way beyond their optimum fighting weights.

Hopkins wins over Trinidad and Tarver were significant, but no more significant than Calzaghe beating Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins himself.

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Hopkins's win over Trinidad was substantially more significant than Calzaghe's wins over Lacy and Kessler. Trinidad was an undefeated, top P4P fighter, and Hopkins destroyed him. In terms of significance of the opposition, of the three wins you listed, only Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is comparable.

At middleweight, most of Hopkins's defense were against top-10 fighters in the weight class. They weren't "greats," but on balance, they were probably more credible than most of the people Calzaghe defended against.

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They were big wins and huge fights in the division. P4P is mythical anyway and saying one is bigger than the other is entirely subjective. Lacy was undefeated and so was Kessler. They were huge fights and extremely significant. Calzaghe unified his division and then went up and beat 'the man' fair and square.

It is wrong to discredit Kessler and say that he is not comparable to Hopkins. He was undefeated and coming in off of a string of very decent performances. Many tipped him to beat Calzaghe.

Both fighters have what you would call decent resumes. Hopkins added a few more late on with calculated CW's, but calculated up to the age of 36 they are both relatively even.

I credit Calzaghe for what he did and also acknowledge what Hopkins has done, but some are unable to give Calzaghe any credit and call him a 'ducker'. He proved himself, you can't say the same for someone like Ottke.

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

I only started talking about Hopkins's record to challenge the claim that he wasn't great. I never took the position that Calzaghe wasn't great; clearly he was. If I recall correctly, the only things I said "against" Calzaghe was that he wouldn't destroy Ward (nor would Ward destroy him), and that it's simply not true that he cleaned out the 168-pound division.

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He unified the division. As for destroying Ward that really is just down to personal opinion

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Who did Hopkins beat at MW to prove his greatness?

His biggest wins were small men moving up. DLH who had really already lost to Sturm and Trinidad who spent most of his career at WW.

Then after Hopkins moves up you have loads more men being called up way beyond their optimum fighting weights.

Hopkins wins over Trinidad and Tarver were significant, but no more significant than Calzaghe beating Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins himself.

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Hopkins's win over Trinidad was substantially more significant than Calzaghe's wins over Lacy and Kessler. Trinidad was an undefeated, top P4P fighter, and Hopkins destroyed him. In terms of significance of the opposition, of the three wins you listed, only Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is comparable.

At middleweight, most of Hopkins's defense were against top-10 fighters in the weight class. They weren't "greats," but on balance, they were probably more credible than most of the people Calzaghe defended against.

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They were big wins and huge fights in the division. P4P is mythical anyway and saying one is bigger than the other is entirely subjective. Lacy was undefeated and so was Kessler. They were huge fights and extremely significant. Calzaghe unified his division and then went up and beat 'the man' fair and square.

It is wrong to discredit Kessler and say that he is not comparable to Hopkins. He was undefeated and coming in off of a string of very decent performances. Many tipped him to beat Calzaghe.

Both fighters have what you would call decent resumes. Hopkins added a few more late on with calculated CW's, but calculated up to the age of 36 they are both relatively even.

I credit Calzaghe for what he did and also acknowledge what Hopkins has done, but some are unable to give Calzaghe any credit and call him a 'ducker'. He proved himself, you can't say the same for someone like Ottke.

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ok, seriously, it's discrediting Kessler to say that he's not comparable to Hopkins? Kessler was "undefeated and coming in off of a string of very decent performances," and Hopkins ruled a division for more than a decade, with TWENTY successful defenses, most of which were against top-10 opponents, and many of which were against top-5 guys. It's BY FAR a discredit to Hopkins to say that Kessler is comparable.

True, Hopkins is the bigger and more established name than Kessler, but what I am saying is that Kessler was a big win too and was a proven SMW champion. It was extremely significant. Just as Hopkins was able to unify against Trinidad, Calzaghe did the same with Kessler. And of course Calzaghe beat Hopkins anyway.

Calzaghe turned on the afterburners with some really good wins late in his career (starting with Lacy). I think it's far to say, though, that he did much more for his resume in the last 2 1/2 years of his career than in the previous 7 (since winning the title).

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

Calzaghe turned on the afterburners with some really good wins late in his career (starting with Lacy). I think it's far to say, though, that he did much more for his resume in the last 2 1/2 years of his career than in the previous 7 (since winning the title).

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Calzaghe definitely gained more US recognition with the Lacy win, but there are several very decent wins before that. My own issue with Calzaghe is that there is too much filler, but every fighter has filler on their resume.

For Ward to have a resume like Calzaghe's he needs to unify the division and move up and beat the main man there. He is relatively young and has plenty of time, but I'm really not convinced regarding his class. Beating Bute would answer a lot more than beating Allan Green and I really think Kessler deserves another shot as that last fight was appalling.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by Althugz

I need make no further points as I said in my last post..you guys make all the points for me! Apart from prime Kessler, Lacy is Calzaghes biggest win..lmao listen to yourselves...

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IMO hopkins has turned out to be calzaghes best win

It was a clear victory over a man who has fought at the top level for years and has had some of his best wins right at the very top since losing to Calzaghe

hopkins has lost before but never as convincingly as Calzaghe beat him

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Althguz thinks all British fighters are shit, pussy, overrated etc...

Oh sorry, apart from his mate Larry Olubamiwo, he was a guy to look out for (:LOLATYOU:)

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Thats original Fenster. I certainly haven't been called unpatriotic before for being a boxing fan first and foremost have I? :rolleyes:

If you cant handle the fact that your boy Calslappy was an over rated mug who fought tomato cans in the Welsh Valleys for most of his life, then I suppose daddy hasn't told you that Santa isnt real yet either? Aww..I'm sure santa is bringing you your "JC - Greatest of All Time!!!" DVD tomorrow morning..

I like British fighters if they're good. Simple. Most Brits like fighters because they have this arrogant notion that because they have a Wbo/Wbu strap around their waist that they're the greatest. If I know someone isn't that good then I call it.

For the record British fighters I have infinitely more respect for that the idiot in question :

Froch..already a better resume than JC. Fights anyone..unlike you know who
Ricky Hatton..Was good but overhyped and I called it but at least he went stateside and tried to be great.
Amir Khan..arrogant but respect for going stateside and fighting some fairly tough opposition. JC too scared to do.

I got behind Haye and Kevin Mitchell too. My point is you'll never find me getting behind a guy purely because he's British..I have more love for the sport than that

Hope you have a merry xmas Fenster..enjoy your presents from Santa *Pats Fenster on the head*

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Im English , so who is your favorite fighter ?

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On the world scene id say i enjoyed bruno and benn and hatton, and british and a bit closer to home id say carl thompson and jamie moore

Currently id say froch is briliant for the sport and its a pity he hasnt had the exposure some other fighters have coz he deserves it

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Originally Posted by shza

Glad you are being honest about your irrational pro-British bias. It's obvious from all of your posts (your previous one included) but good that you at least admit it.

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if you are refering to my post about calzaghe beating hopkins then you are clearly more bias than i am for thinking that i am bias for thinking that

Get me? :)

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

Kessler would get beaten more decisively in a second fight with Ward than he did in the first.

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Opinion and nothing else.

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Hilarious, coming from you. In this thread.

Miles, you are taking this way too personally and exaggerating to an extreme to compensate.

Hopkins "turned out to be an easy win" for Calzaghe? Ward is not really very good? You don't need to jump to this kind of out-and-out hyperbole to make your point. It comes off as (and is, really) pure provocation and not even an attempt to persuade anyone to agree with you. Just like in the Manny/JMM threads.

Personally, I thought the old, Jermain Taylor-losing version of Hopkins still shaded a decision against Calzaghe. Plenty of others agree. But I'm not going to claim it was "decisive" or "easy" or pretend I can't conceive of how anyone could possibly see it any other way. Or call it a "robbery." If you score workrate above absolutely everything else, even if it's ineffective pitter-pat, you have to score the fight for Calzaghe (though still close on the cards -- not "easy").

Same with the Calzaghe-Ward point. Here, I'm generally inclined to agree that, at this point, Ward is just too young and unproven to pick in this mythical matchup. But 5 years from now? We'll see. Not out of the question. No need to completely denigrate the guy and basically say he's a completely average fighter except that he's good at clinching in order to conclude or argue that the bout favors Calzaghe at this point.

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All boxing debate is just opinion at the end of the day and I happen to believe Calzaghe is much better than Ward and that the only person to really prove a challenge would have been a prime Jones Jr. Just because you don't agree doesn't make it hyperbole. You just disagree.

I don't think Ward is terribly good, I think his style involves blatant cheating and his resume isn't all that hot either. All of those points can be backed up. I don't need hyperbole, the facts to support the opinions are there. Froch has a better resume than Andre Ward.

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I was going to assume that this was a self-deprecating joke about how ridiculous you were being before. Except that you're now continuing to be all butt-hurt about criticism of Calzaghe and are spouting off with more of the same hyperbole. It is truly bizarre how personally you are taking criticism of Joe Calzaghe.

No one picked Kessler to beat Calzaghe, btw. And it wasn't a "huge" fight outside of Europe. And please stop pretending that Lacy's shoulder is what made him average - the guy was a one-note power puncher with no skill, always. Cheers to Joe C for exposing that but exposing is all it was.

It's a shame that Calzaghe didn't fight Jones or Hopkins in their primes so we wouldn't need to engage in this. I think he gets completely outclassed by both. (And please stop pretending that the lost-twice-to-Jermain-Taylor, no power, no offense, 40-plus, version of Hopkins was somehow a bigger challenge than a circa-Tito Hopkins.) Just my opinion.

You have succeeded in making me think less of Calzaghe as a result of your spastic personally-involved responses to nearly every post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by shza

Glad you are being honest about your irrational pro-British bias. It's obvious from all of your posts (your previous one included) but good that you at least admit it.

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if you are refering to my post about calzaghe beating hopkins then you are clearly more bias than i am for thinking that i am bias for thinking that

Get me? :)

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You should probably go back and read the exchange, if you can.

I'll remind you: you attempted to browbeat someone for being British but not sucking Calzaghe's dick. I don't recall anything about Hopkins.

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by erics44

Hopkins didnt beat Calzaghe

He didnt win the fight

he didnt land enough punches, didnt throw enough to land them, didnt take a step forward

sometimes i can understand other sides to arguments in fights, that one there was no argument

if someone could show me any of the last 8 rounds where hopkins was on top for more than a single punch ill eat my words

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Is Calzaghe your favorite fighter ?

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ha

nah he isnt that great

least i like some fighters tho eh?

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Tommy Hearns is my all time favorite , so it was just a simple question , sorry if the question offended you.

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dont be sorry its a sign of weakness

and no offence taken, i thought you had turned a serious conversation into a bit of fun, so i joined in

im dissapointed in you tho, you are British right? you dont support Manchester United do you?

if you want a serious answer then I am English, Calzaghe is welsh so no he isnt my favourite fighter

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Eric being sorry is a weakness indeed , but i was being sarcastic :Sarcasm:

The ability to apologize shows the true size of a mans balls. Only small men are unable to say sorry. I bet Joe Calzaghe can say sorry very impressively.

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Originally Posted by shza

You should probably go back and read the exchange, if you can.

I'll remind you: you attempted to browbeat someone for being British but not sucking Calzaghe's dick. I don't recall anything about Hopkins.

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Nope you misunderstood the exchange, which is a pity coz arguing about who is more bias is always my favourite argument

Its Always a real diamond when someone plays the 'youre bias' card :)

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by Althugz

I need make no further points as I said in my last post..you guys make all the points for me! Apart from prime Kessler, Lacy is Calzaghes biggest win..lmao listen to yourselves...

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IMO hopkins has turned out to be calzaghes best win

It was a clear victory over a man who has fought at the top level for years and has had some of his best wins right at the very top since losing to Calzaghe

hopkins has lost before but never as convincingly as Calzaghe beat him

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Althguz thinks all British fighters are shit, pussy, overrated etc...

Oh sorry, apart from his mate Larry Olubamiwo, he was a guy to look out for (:LOLATYOU:)

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Thats original Fenster. I certainly haven't been called unpatriotic before for being a boxing fan first and foremost have I? :rolleyes:

If you cant handle the fact that your boy Calslappy was an over rated mug who fought tomato cans in the Welsh Valleys for most of his life, then I suppose daddy hasn't told you that Santa isnt real yet either? Aww..I'm sure santa is bringing you your "JC - Greatest of All Time!!!" DVD tomorrow morning..

I like British fighters if they're good. Simple. Most Brits like fighters because they have this arrogant notion that because they have a Wbo/Wbu strap around their waist that they're the greatest. If I know someone isn't that good then I call it.

For the record British fighters I have infinitely more respect for that the idiot in question :

Froch..already a better resume than JC. Fights anyone..unlike you know who
Ricky Hatton..Was good but overhyped and I called it but at least he went stateside and tried to be great.
Amir Khan..arrogant but respect for going stateside and fighting some fairly tough opposition. JC too scared to do.

I got behind Haye and Kevin Mitchell too. My point is you'll never find me getting behind a guy purely because he's British..I have more love for the sport than that

Hope you have a merry xmas Fenster..enjoy your presents from Santa *Pats Fenster on the head*

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I couldn't care less whether you like British fighters or not. Your Calzaghe hating means nothing to me.

I laugh at you purely because you can't see the IRONY of constantly slagging off proven world-class fighters whilst praising guys that are borderline journeymen at best. Do you not realise how stupid that makes you look?

Ask Larry how hard it is to win a Southern Area title let alone a British, European, "World," become undisputed champion, P4P rated?

If a proven world-class fighter is such a "pussy" what does that make the fighters he beat? What does that make the fighters that can only dream of getting to that level?

Your attitude is a disgrace.

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by shza

You should probably go back and read the exchange, if you can.

I'll remind you: you attempted to browbeat someone for being British but not sucking Calzaghe's dick. I don't recall anything about Hopkins.

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Nope you misunderstood the exchange, which is a pity coz arguing about who is more bias is always my favourite argument

Its Always a real diamond when someone plays the 'youre bias' card :)

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HAHAHA it reminds me of the Monty Python sketch ,

" Good morning I have come here for an argument "
" No you havent "
"Yes I have"
"No im certain you havent"
"Well we are arguing now"
" No we are not"


etc lol

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

The ability to apologize shows the true size of a mans balls. Only small men are unable to say sorry. I bet Joe Calzaghe can say sorry very impressively.

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I agree Calzaghe has alot to be sorry about lol

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by shza

You should probably go back and read the exchange, if you can.

I'll remind you: you attempted to browbeat someone for being British but not sucking Calzaghe's dick. I don't recall anything about Hopkins.

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Nope you misunderstood the exchange, which is a pity coz arguing about who is more bias is always my favourite argument

Its Always a real diamond when someone plays the 'youre bias' card :)

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HAHAHA it reminds me of the Monty Python sketch ,

" Good morning I have come here for an argument "
" No you havent "
"Yes I have"
"No im certain you havent"
"Well we are arguing now"
" No we are not"


etc lol

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exactly

hi you must be bias
no you must
no you must
no you
you
you

its exciting shit

by the way dark al, i was just being saracastic about your sarcasm

so i double sarcasitcated you :Sarcasm: :Sarcasm:

Calzaghe can say anything he wants, but FACT is that Ward already has a better looking resume than Calzaghe ever did, only standout wins are Lacey and Kessler, and Ward beat up Kessler a lot worse than Joe did, unless Calzaghe is looking to step back in the ring and try to back his crap up (he wont cause there's no one who's shot to shit like Jones was) he just needs to shut the fuck up and try to make everything bout himself, and all this talk about a prime Joe this and a prime Joe that, a prime Joe struggled and was given a fucking gift against the likes of Reid, Ward isn't some come straight forward one dimensional drone like Lacey, he's not limited in variety of punches like Kessler, Ward is a natural super middleweight who is in his prime or close to it who can box and move yet can still get inside and brawl, Calzaghe NEVER faced anyone like him in his entire career

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Calzaghe can say anything he wants, but FACT is that Ward already has a better looking resume than Calzaghe ever did, only standout wins are Lacey and Kessler, and Ward beat up Kessler a lot worse than Joe did, unless Calzaghe is looking to step back in the ring and try to back his crap up (he wont cause there's no one who's shot to shit like Jones was) he just needs to shut the fuck up and try to make everything bout himself, and all this talk about a prime Joe this and a prime Joe that, a prime Joe struggled and was given a fucking gift against the likes of Reid, Ward isn't some come straight forward one dimensional drone like Lacey, he's not limited in variety of punches like Kessler, Ward is a natural super middleweight who is in his prime or close to it who can box and move yet can still get inside and brawl, Calzaghe NEVER faced anyone like him in his entire career

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RECORD!

and no he doesnt

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Calzaghe can say anything he wants, but FACT is that Ward already has a better looking resume than Calzaghe ever did

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Exactly my point..Jeez!

Fenster, you bore me..but if you must know why I have such a "disgraceful attitude" towards Calzaghe it's because I've never felt so strongly about any fighter actually BEING a great talent..BUT chose never to prove it. He proved it once in my eyes and that was against Kessler. I gave him his due props. Other than that he's a huge waste of talent..and yours or Miles' man-crush on him doesn't change that.

(FACT)

P.S. You brought up and insulted somebody complete unrelated to the argument because you didn't have one. So how am I the one with a disgraceful attitude? :dunce:

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by shza

You should probably go back and read the exchange, if you can.

I'll remind you: you attempted to browbeat someone for being British but not sucking Calzaghe's dick. I don't recall anything about Hopkins.

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Nope you misunderstood the exchange, which is a pity coz arguing about who is more bias is always my favourite argument

Its Always a real diamond when someone plays the 'youre bias' card :)

---

HAHAHA it reminds me of the Monty Python sketch ,

" Good morning I have come here for an argument "
" No you havent "
"Yes I have"
"No im certain you havent"
"Well we are arguing now"
" No we are not"


etc lol

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exactly

hi you must be bias
no you must
no you must
no you
you
you

its exciting shit

by the way dark al, i was just being saracastic about your sarcasm

so i double sarcasitcated you :Sarcasm: :Sarcasm:

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Well Eric i was already thinking about being sarcastic even before you said anything sacastic to me ,so ipredicted your sarcasm , therefore I three times outdid your sarcastic post ! I :Sarcasm: your :Sarcasm: with :Sarcasm:

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

Firstly, with respect to anyone who thinks that a second Froch-Ward fight would go any differently, Froch doesn't even think he could beat Ward. He's already said that he's the second-best 168-pounder, and that nobody can beat Ward at 168.

Secondly, it's a myth that Calzaghe cleaned out the 168-pound division. He beat many good fighters, but there were A LOT of top contenders that for one reason or another, he never took on. Pick up a random Ring Magazine from the Calzaghe era, and you'll see a lot of names in the top-5 of the 168-pound division that Calzaghe never got in the ring with. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't have beaten them; but it's just patently false that he beat all of the big names in the division.

Thirdly, since the Calzaghe fight, with the exception of the Ward fight, Kessler is 5-0 (4), including a solid win against the division's #3. So it's bullshit to discount Ward's victory by saying that Kessler is somehow markedly worse than he was against Calzaghe; it's just that Ward made him LOOK bad. The 2011 Ward is better than ANY year's Kessler, and Calzaghe, while he beat him decisively, hardly "destroyed" him. To say that Ward hasn't done against anyone else the types of things that he would need to go to beat Calzaghe misses the point; it doesn't imply that Ward is incapable of doing those things. He just hasn't needed to do them against anyone else. What Ward has shown is that to date, he can do whatever is needed to beat the people put in front of him. That doesn't mean that he necessarily would be able to adjust successfully against Calzaghe, but there's no particular reason to think that he wouldn't, either. IMO, 2011 Ward vs. (insert your favorite 168-pound year here) Calzaghe would be a close, competitive, and highly entertaining fight.

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Actually mate, your comment is 'The Myth' - this is a point that has been debated over and over on here. You tell me who Calzaghe should've fought at 168, that was operating at 168 at that time, and that the reason they didn't fight was JC!!

Andplease don't say Liles, Echols, Mundine and all that old blurb.

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I didn't say anything about "the reason" Calzaghe didn't fight them; but the fact is, he didn't. Again, just pick up a Ring Magazine during the Calzaghe era. You'll see lots of names in the top-5 that Calzaghe never fought. Sorry, I missed the earlier debates, but why are supposed to ignore Echols and Mundine? They were #s 3 and 4 in the 2003 and 2004 annual rankings, when Calzaghe was defending against people like Kabary Salem and Mger Mkrtchyan. But those are hardly the only names. Look at Calzaghe's record, and look at the names of the people in the top 5 during his time as a top 168-pound champion and contender.

Ward is 27, and he's beaten three of the top 5 in the weight class, and four of the top 10.

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OK, so you tell me who these people are and which ones enhance his legacy?

Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell, Lacy, Kessler, Brewer, Bika are not all time greats, but were all (except Bika) either current or very recent world champions. To say that Echols or Mundine (or the others you are going to tell us) would've changed your view on his resume doesn't make sense. Fact is, it wasn't a great era, B-Hop and RJJ were not fighting at SMW (there were to busy creating far worse resume's than Calzaghe in their own respective weight classes ;)) and other than Ottke, who was utter shite, there was nobody else to fight that he didn't fight.

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Calzaghe can say anything he wants, but FACT is that Ward already has a better looking resume than Calzaghe ever did

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Exactly my point..Jeez!

Fenster, you bore me..but if you must know why I have such a "disgraceful attitude" towards Calzaghe it's because I've never felt so strongly about any fighter actually BEING a great talent..BUT chose never to prove it. He proved it once in my eyes and that was against Kessler. I gave him his due props. Other than that he's a huge waste of talent..and yours or Miles' man-crush on him doesn't change that.

(FACT)

P.S. You brought up and insulted somebody complete unrelated to the argument because you didn't have one. So how am I the one with a disgraceful attitude? :dunce:

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How have I insulted Larry? Have I called him a "pussy?" Shit? Mug? Overrated? YOU'RE the one insulting Larry but you're to thick naive to realise it. That's my argument. I haven't wavered from it.

If you have no respect for fighters that have reached the pinnacle how can you possibly respect fighters with little talent and little chance of success?

Had you never mentioned being in a boxing gym and knowing fighters (like Larry) I wouldn't even respond to a single post you make, i'd just think you're a silly kid. However, I find it incredible that someone that actually knows fighters can have such little respect for them. Amazing.

Big H its a fuckin record ts not a resume, a resume is something some bird has who works in catering and is trying to get a job in a cake shop

Everyone who has a decent job has a cv

And boxers have a fuckin record

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Originally Posted by erics44

Big H its a fuckin record ts not a resume, a resume is something some bird has who works in catering and is trying to get a job in a cake shop

Everyone who has a decent job has a cv

And boxers have a fuckin record

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;D

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

Firstly, with respect to anyone who thinks that a second Froch-Ward fight would go any differently, Froch doesn't even think he could beat Ward. He's already said that he's the second-best 168-pounder, and that nobody can beat Ward at 168.

Secondly, it's a myth that Calzaghe cleaned out the 168-pound division. He beat many good fighters, but there were A LOT of top contenders that for one reason or another, he never took on. Pick up a random Ring Magazine from the Calzaghe era, and you'll see a lot of names in the top-5 of the 168-pound division that Calzaghe never got in the ring with. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't have beaten them; but it's just patently false that he beat all of the big names in the division.

Thirdly, since the Calzaghe fight, with the exception of the Ward fight, Kessler is 5-0 (4), including a solid win against the division's #3. So it's bullshit to discount Ward's victory by saying that Kessler is somehow markedly worse than he was against Calzaghe; it's just that Ward made him LOOK bad. The 2011 Ward is better than ANY year's Kessler, and Calzaghe, while he beat him decisively, hardly "destroyed" him. To say that Ward hasn't done against anyone else the types of things that he would need to go to beat Calzaghe misses the point; it doesn't imply that Ward is incapable of doing those things. He just hasn't needed to do them against anyone else. What Ward has shown is that to date, he can do whatever is needed to beat the people put in front of him. That doesn't mean that he necessarily would be able to adjust successfully against Calzaghe, but there's no particular reason to think that he wouldn't, either. IMO, 2011 Ward vs. (insert your favorite 168-pound year here) Calzaghe would be a close, competitive, and highly entertaining fight.

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Actually mate, your comment is 'The Myth' - this is a point that has been debated over and over on here. You tell me who Calzaghe should've fought at 168, that was operating at 168 at that time, and that the reason they didn't fight was JC!!

Andplease don't say Liles, Echols, Mundine and all that old blurb.

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I didn't say anything about "the reason" Calzaghe didn't fight them; but the fact is, he didn't. Again, just pick up a Ring Magazine during the Calzaghe era. You'll see lots of names in the top-5 that Calzaghe never fought. Sorry, I missed the earlier debates, but why are supposed to ignore Echols and Mundine? They were #s 3 and 4 in the 2003 and 2004 annual rankings, when Calzaghe was defending against people like Kabary Salem and Mger Mkrtchyan. But those are hardly the only names. Look at Calzaghe's record, and look at the names of the people in the top 5 during his time as a top 168-pound champion and contender.

Ward is 27, and he's beaten three of the top 5 in the weight class, and four of the top 10.

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OK, so you tell me who these people are and which ones enhance his legacy?

Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell, Lacy, Kessler, Brewer, Bika are not all time greats, but were all (except Bika) either current or very recent world champions. To say that Echols or Mundine (or the others you are going to tell us) would've changed your view on his resume doesn't make sense. Fact is, it wasn't a great era, B-Hop and RJJ were not fighting at SMW (there were to busy creating far worse resume's than Calzaghe in their own respective weight classes ;)) and other than Ottke, who was utter shite, there was nobody else to fight that he didn't fight.

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I'm not saying they have to be all-time greats, but most of the people Calzaghe defended the title against weren't top-ten in the weight class. In the last 2 1/2 years, he stepped up his level of competition dramatically, but in the first 7+ years, his defenses weren't remotely against the best 168-pounders. They just WEREN'T. Don't extrapolate anything from that other what it is, or what his legacy would have been if he fought X, Y, or Z. I'm just stating a plain, verifiable, almost indisputable fact. For over 7 years, the top SMWs were passed over as Calzaghe defended mostly against 2nd and 3rd tier guys. I'm not talking about P4P greats; I'm just talking about the top 168-pounders of that era.

I agree with Gandalf that all boxers have some filler, but what other boxers do is irrelevant to the question of whether he cleaned out the division. He just didn't. And if you look at the Ring Magazine rankings of their eras (which are not perfect, but are at least Better than the corrupted sanctioning body rankings), it's apparent that Hopkins, overall, defended against a higher class of challenger. Which, of course, doesn't mean that Hopkins was better than Calzaghe. But it's still true (that he defended against better challengers, that is).

Hopkins, as 160-pound champion, has a better resume than Calzaghe as 168-pound champion.. The "far worse resume" bit is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by erics44

Big H its a fuckin record ts not a resume, a resume is something some bird has who works in catering and is trying to get a job in a cake shop

Everyone who has a decent job has a cv

And boxers have a fuckin record

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;D

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;D

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

Firstly, with respect to anyone who thinks that a second Froch-Ward fight would go any differently, Froch doesn't even think he could beat Ward. He's already said that he's the second-best 168-pounder, and that nobody can beat Ward at 168.

Secondly, it's a myth that Calzaghe cleaned out the 168-pound division. He beat many good fighters, but there were A LOT of top contenders that for one reason or another, he never took on. Pick up a random Ring Magazine from the Calzaghe era, and you'll see a lot of names in the top-5 of the 168-pound division that Calzaghe never got in the ring with. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't have beaten them; but it's just patently false that he beat all of the big names in the division.

Thirdly, since the Calzaghe fight, with the exception of the Ward fight, Kessler is 5-0 (4), including a solid win against the division's #3. So it's bullshit to discount Ward's victory by saying that Kessler is somehow markedly worse than he was against Calzaghe; it's just that Ward made him LOOK bad. The 2011 Ward is better than ANY year's Kessler, and Calzaghe, while he beat him decisively, hardly "destroyed" him. To say that Ward hasn't done against anyone else the types of things that he would need to go to beat Calzaghe misses the point; it doesn't imply that Ward is incapable of doing those things. He just hasn't needed to do them against anyone else. What Ward has shown is that to date, he can do whatever is needed to beat the people put in front of him. That doesn't mean that he necessarily would be able to adjust successfully against Calzaghe, but there's no particular reason to think that he wouldn't, either. IMO, 2011 Ward vs. (insert your favorite 168-pound year here) Calzaghe would be a close, competitive, and highly entertaining fight.

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Actually mate, your comment is 'The Myth' - this is a point that has been debated over and over on here. You tell me who Calzaghe should've fought at 168, that was operating at 168 at that time, and that the reason they didn't fight was JC!!

Andplease don't say Liles, Echols, Mundine and all that old blurb.

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I didn't say anything about "the reason" Calzaghe didn't fight them; but the fact is, he didn't. Again, just pick up a Ring Magazine during the Calzaghe era. You'll see lots of names in the top-5 that Calzaghe never fought. Sorry, I missed the earlier debates, but why are supposed to ignore Echols and Mundine? They were #s 3 and 4 in the 2003 and 2004 annual rankings, when Calzaghe was defending against people like Kabary Salem and Mger Mkrtchyan. But those are hardly the only names. Look at Calzaghe's record, and look at the names of the people in the top 5 during his time as a top 168-pound champion and contender.

Ward is 27, and he's beaten three of the top 5 in the weight class, and four of the top 10.

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OK, so you tell me who these people are and which ones enhance his legacy?

Woodhall, Reid, Mitchell, Lacy, Kessler, Brewer, Bika are not all time greats, but were all (except Bika) either current or very recent world champions. To say that Echols or Mundine (or the others you are going to tell us) would've changed your view on his resume doesn't make sense. Fact is, it wasn't a great era, B-Hop and RJJ were not fighting at SMW (there were to busy creating far worse resume's than Calzaghe in their own respective weight classes ;)) and other than Ottke, who was utter shite, there was nobody else to fight that he didn't fight.

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I'm not saying they have to be all-time greats, but most of the people Calzaghe defended the title against weren't top-ten in the weight class. In the last 2 1/2 years, he stepped up his level of competition dramatically, but in the first 7+ years, his defenses weren't remotely against the best 168-pounders. They just WEREN'T. Don't extrapolate anything from that other what it is, or what his legacy would have been if he fought X, Y, or Z. I'm just stating a plain, verifiable, almost indisputable fact. For over 7 years, the top SMWs were passed over as Calzaghe defended mostly against 2nd and 3rd tier guys. I'm not talking about P4P greats; I'm just talking about the top 168-pounders of that era.

I agree with Gandalf that all boxers have some filler, but what other boxers do is irrelevant to the question of whether he cleaned out the division. He just didn't. And if you look at the Ring Magazine rankings of their eras (which are not perfect, but are at least Better than the corrupted sanctioning body rankings), it's apparent that Hopkins, overall, defended against a higher class of challenger. Which, of course, doesn't mean that Hopkins was better than Calzaghe. But it's still true (that he defended against better challengers, that is).

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And yet again, I ask "Who are these people?" Give me names!!

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

Hopkins, as 160-pound champion, has a better resume than Calzaghe as 168-pound champion.. The "far worse resume" bit is nonsense.

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Until he started beating up the little guys, i.e his first 18 or so defences, who did he fight that was higher rated/revered than Kessler or Lacy as 2 examples? Go to Boxrec and look at that list of bums and tell me there any better than the people JC fought. B-Hop and RJJ will go down as ATGs, but their records (there you go Eric you koont ;D ) during their prime yeaers are filled with fighters at a very similar level to those on JC's record. I would say that is pretty undisputable!

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

Hopkins, as 160-pound champion, has a better resume than Calzaghe as 168-pound champion.. The "far worse resume" bit is nonsense.

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Until he started beating up the little guys, i.e his first 18 or so defences, who did he fight that was higher rated/revered than Kessler or Lacy as 2 examples? Go to Boxrec and look at that list of bums and tell me there any better than the people JC fought. B-Hop and RJJ will go down as ATGs, but their records (there you go Eric you koont ;D ) during their prime yeaers are filled with fighters at a very similar level to those on JC's record. I would say that is pretty undisputable!

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Well said Big H, thing is the top fighter never fight each other week in week out.?
never has happened never will?
All the great fighter's, and not so great one's have fought, there bum's s so with all
fighter's we can say there opponent's have not all been top quality.?;D

Thanks dude

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX

Hopkins, as 160-pound champion, has a better resume than Calzaghe as 168-pound champion.. The "far worse resume" bit is nonsense.

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Until he started beating up the little guys, i.e his first 18 or so defences, who did he fight that was higher rated/revered than Kessler or Lacy as 2 examples? Go to Boxrec and look at that list of bums and tell me there any better than the people JC fought. B-Hop and RJJ will go down as ATGs, but their records (there you go Eric you koont ;D ) during their prime yeaers are filled with fighters at a very similar level to those on JC's record. I would say that is pretty undisputable!

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I do find it funny how Felix Trinidad is considered a little guy now since he lost the fight. Yet that wasn't the case going into the Hopkins fight. Hell he was actually favored to beat Hopkins. But I see the need to bad mouth Hopkins resume....record is so great he must be referred as a little guy

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Calzaghe can say anything he wants, but FACT is that Ward already has a better looking resume than Calzaghe ever did

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Exactly my point..Jeez!

Fenster, you bore me..but if you must know why I have such a "disgraceful attitude" towards Calzaghe it's because I've never felt so strongly about any fighter actually BEING a great talent..BUT chose never to prove it. He proved it once in my eyes and that was against Kessler. I gave him his due props. Other than that he's a huge waste of talent..and yours or Miles' man-crush on him doesn't change that.

(FACT)

P.S. You brought up and insulted somebody complete unrelated to the argument because you didn't have one. So how am I the one with a disgraceful attitude? :dunce:

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How have I insulted Larry? Have I called him a "pussy?" Shit? Mug? Overrated? YOU'RE the one insulting Larry but you're to thick naive to realise it. That's my argument. I haven't wavered from it.

If you have no respect for fighters that have reached the pinnacle how can you possibly respect fighters with little talent and little chance of success?

Had you never mentioned being in a boxing gym and knowing fighters (like Larry) I wouldn't even respond to a single post you make, i'd just think you're a silly kid. However, I find it incredible that someone that actually knows fighters can have such little respect for them. Amazing.

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Christ you take this internet forum lark so seriously...I'm the thick one yet I have to explain to you in great detail what I mean by every post I make.

I'm starting to feel like the teaching assistant in primary school especially brought in to help you comprehend the most simple shit..You ready, Fenster? :vd::vd:

I refer to Calzaghe as a "pussy" in boxing terms..of course I respect him as a fighter as I respect anybody who steps into the ring, regardless of whether I like them or not.

As I explained before I thought Calzaghe was a huge talent..So I call him a "pussy" because he wasted that talent NOT fighting people..come on..Peter Manfredo on your 40th odd fight when you've been a world champ for untold years??

I call him a pussy to illustrate my point..not to call him a literal pussy..but you're too naive (or was it thick?) to understand even though i've explained once before. Don't take me or yourself so seriously..bet you think this is your real job too!

How many times does Floyd get called Gayweather, chicken etc yet I've never seen you defend him as a fighter? I call out your man-crush and I have a shit attitude. hmmm. You've always had this weird boner for me and I suggest you get help for it..I like girls so it's not healthy for you to be feeling the way you do.

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

Calzaghe can say anything he wants, but FACT is that Ward already has a better looking resume than Calzaghe ever did

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Exactly my point..Jeez!

Fenster, you bore me..but if you must know why I have such a "disgraceful attitude" towards Calzaghe it's because I've never felt so strongly about any fighter actually BEING a great talent..BUT chose never to prove it. He proved it once in my eyes and that was against Kessler. I gave him his due props. Other than that he's a huge waste of talent..and yours or Miles' man-crush on him doesn't change that.

(FACT)

P.S. You brought up and insulted somebody complete unrelated to the argument because you didn't have one. So how am I the one with a disgraceful attitude? :dunce:

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How have I insulted Larry? Have I called him a "pussy?" Shit? Mug? Overrated? YOU'RE the one insulting Larry but you're to thick naive to realise it. That's my argument. I haven't wavered from it.

If you have no respect for fighters that have reached the pinnacle how can you possibly respect fighters with little talent and little chance of success?

Had you never mentioned being in a boxing gym and knowing fighters (like Larry) I wouldn't even respond to a single post you make, i'd just think you're a silly kid. However, I find it incredible that someone that actually knows fighters can have such little respect for them. Amazing.

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Christ you take this internet forum lark so seriously...I'm the thick one yet I have to explain to you in great detail what I mean by every post I make.

I'm starting to feel like the teaching assistant in primary school especially brought in to help you comprehend the most simple shit..You ready, Fenster? :vd::vd:

I refer to Calzaghe as a "pussy" in boxing terms..of course I respect him as a fighter as I respect anybody who steps into the ring, regardless of whether I like them or not.

As I explained before I thought Calzaghe was a huge talent..So I call him a "pussy" because he wasted that talent NOT fighting people..come on..Peter Manfredo on your 40th odd fight when you've been a world champ for untold years??

I call him a pussy to illustrate my point..not to call him a literal pussy..but you're too naive (or was it thick?) to understand even though i've explained once before. Don't take me or yourself so seriously..bet you think this is your real job too!

How many times does Floyd get called Gayweather, chicken etc yet I've never seen you defend him as a fighter? I call out your man-crush and I have a shit attitude. hmmm. You've always had this weird boner for me and I suggest you get help for it..I like girls so it's not healthy for you to be feeling the way you do.

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I was addressing your attitude towards all fighters not just Calzaghe. Just about all the kids on here that actually box are very respectful towards fighters. Larry comes across as a very humble guy. You come across as the opposite.

No worries though...

P.S. - you are far too ugly to give me a boner. Fact. ;)