Choco-Srisaket II/Inoue-Nieves/Cuadras-Estrada - Sept 9 Great Card!!!

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Originally Posted by Batman

Gonzalez has said that whilst he is considering retiring he hasn't made a final decision yet but if he does decide to continue he will carry on at the same weight

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Gonzalez looked older and slower whereas Srisaket appeared more calmer and confident throughout the build up and during the fight. I assume that was his wife crying at ring side, she looked traumatised.

I missed the fights thanks to Irma. :mad:

But seeing as to how Chocolatito lost by knockout, and reading as to how some on here never ranked him that high to begin with... it's sad that Gonzalez joins the ranks of those great, talented, accomplished fighters who, upon losing.... all of a sudden were never all that great.

Yeah I can see him look old and worn, as well as being affected by the weight gain. But to read where guys like Ward are better than him... that's just insane. Ward was ridiculously inactive and fought a couple of lollipops before taking on Kovalev. The first decision was questionable... and the TKO was puzzling... as it seems Kovalev wasn't mentally there.

Crawford I can see being rated higher. He's at the top of his game, and his style is totally crowd-friendly. He's beaten some very good fighters. But so had Chocolatito. Just because he wasn't televised as much..... or just because he fights at the totally lower weights..... this is the type of thing that does him no favors with the casual fans.

Hopefully he'll be back.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Alpha

Don't bother @Fenster those that actually follow boxing (not just certain divisions) know how good Gonzalez was. Age, wars and weight have taken their toll.

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Oh i watch a lot of boxing i been watching this sport for sometime but never watched Gonzalez and thought he best in the sport. I do not like Ward at all but he is the best in the sport and craft is on par with Hopkins.

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Ward is arguably the P4P #1 now, but when Floyd retired it left a gap at the top with no real obvious choice. I thought Ward lost the 1st fight with Kov, the second fight was also very close at the time of the 'stoppage'. Ward may have ended it in a round or 2 but we'll never know for sure. The way the fight ended robbed both fighters of opportunities, plus his inactivity leading up to that point left a lot to be desired. Gonzalez won a razor thin decision over Caudras who was near the top of 115 (Chocolatito's 4th weight by the way), plus all the achievements Fenster listed, he was definitely in the discussion. I don't care for P4P at all because it is too subjective and at the end of the day a mythical subject.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Great fight and knock out the first fight was fun watch i still can not believe this guy was pound for pound ranked 1 over likes of Ward and Crawford. He just got his career destroyed by a man who for past 10 fights before fighting him was fighting guys with shit records and a lot of them debuting in boxing. Anyway good luck to the guy hope he can find something else to do or moved back down because he look just like another guy in this weight class.

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I can answer why you think it's ridiculous this man was rated P4P above Ward? First some stats for perspective (seeing as you love boxrec).

44-0 (38 KOs)

FOUR-weight "world" champion.

LINEAL flyweight champion (one of the most decorated/strongest linage divisions in the entire history of boxing).

SIXTEEN consecutive world title fight wins (ALL won/defended on foreign soil/THREE different countries).

NINE victories over former/current "world" champions.

So ignoring his visually brilliant style/skills, accomplishments and treasure trove of silverware - you can't understand why a man that's fought 100% of his title fights outside his own native country could possibly rank above a man that's had the privilege of never leaving home (USA)?

Hmm... I wonder why you're struggling with this concept?

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You honestly think that man is the best boxer there is then i have nothing to say to you. Ward is diva but he and Crawford are far more talented then that guy in deeper divisions so no he should of never been ranked that high.

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You stated it was baffling that an unbeaten, multi-weight world champion that had ventured all over the globe winning titles was so revered.

I considered maybe it's because you haven't got a clue who he is? I was right, as you admitted.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

i watch a lot of boxing i been watching this sport for sometime but never watched Gonzalez

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Many fans delve deeper into the sport than the popular American fighters. It's a global sport. Fame/money doesn't surpass ability/accomplishment when assessing their quality, there's no extra points for popularity. You don't understand why he's rated so high because you only watch a tiny pool of fighters.

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Loved your first post, but this one is the dishonesty that drives me crazy. You are on the right side of the argument, you don't need to pull the weak dishonest crap. Cutting off his sentence to make it seem he said something he didn't is Bush League

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Dishonest? Weak? Crap? That's a tad melodramatic, isn't it?

I specifically used his quote that was RELEVANT to the final point I was making. My whole boring, waste of time waffleathon was a polite way of saying "you don't know shit about boxing." Which I know you would have preferred but I try to be a bit more couth.

I am talking to a man that, when prevented with evidence as to why Choco was rated so high, responds with "you crazy to think he better than Ward." So he started at "you crazy to think Gonzalez be better than Ward" and ended at "you crazy to think Gonzalez be better than Ward."

I'm crazy for wasting my time with this shit.

I did tell you not to bother.

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Can you honestly say that if they were sized the same that Choco would have a chance in hell in beating guys with the pedigrees in boxing the level of Ward or Crawford. I watch enough boxing mostly the main division before they got split up into the joke they are now. I am not being biased you just underrating Ward he is way better then Choco could ever be in the ring and if Ward got destroyed by that level of fighter i would be shocked. I have many guys who I like who are not from the states who i been fan of Lewis and Wlad being biggest ones. Ward just came back from huge layoff and had close fight and then knocked out the top guy at LHW can you imagine him losing to some unknown.

The shift and focus of some fans on P4P is bizarre. Most of us boxing 'nerds' in these forums can identify good fighters. I don't really understand the need for so much emphasis on P4P. I much prefer divisional rankings and all time divisional rankings as there is a bit more substance there, opposition, accomplishments etc.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Can you honestly say that if they were sized the same that Choco would have a chance in hell in beating guys with the pedigrees in boxing the level of Ward or Crawford. I watch enough boxing mostly the main division before they got split up into the joke they are now. I am not being biased you just underrating Ward he is way better then Choco could ever be in the ring and if Ward got destroyed by that level of fighter i would be shocked. I have many guys who I like who are not from the states who i been fan of Lewis and Wlad being biggest ones. Ward just came back from huge layoff and had close fight and then knocked out the top guy at LHW can you imagine him losing to some unknown.

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Unknown by you. Some of us knew he would be difficult. He was getting to Caudras before a cut called the fight short. Caudras arguably beat Estrada one of the best fighters around currently.

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Originally Posted by Alpha

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Can you honestly say that if they were sized the same that Choco would have a chance in hell in beating guys with the pedigrees in boxing the level of Ward or Crawford. I watch enough boxing mostly the main division before they got split up into the joke they are now. I am not being biased you just underrating Ward he is way better then Choco could ever be in the ring and if Ward got destroyed by that level of fighter i would be shocked. I have many guys who I like who are not from the states who i been fan of Lewis and Wlad being biggest ones. Ward just came back from huge layoff and had close fight and then knocked out the top guy at LHW can you imagine him losing to some unknown.

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Unknown by you. Some of us knew he would be difficult. He was getting to Caudras before a cut called the fight short. Caudras arguably beat Estrada one of the best fighters around currently.

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So you are telling me you would not be shocked if Ward fought guy with his style and achievement and got beat and then knocked the fucked out you would not be shocked at all. Ward is a diva and had a layoff but when he is in the ring i can not for the life of me seeing him in that bad of shape. The guy is about as schooled as you can be when it comes to boxing he is the Hopkins of his generation his talent pretty much is unquestioned at this point is it not.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Can you honestly say that if they were sized the same that Choco would have a chance in hell in beating guys with the pedigrees in boxing the level of Ward or Crawford.

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yeah but if you took a shrink ray and used it on AJ and shrunk him down to Choco's natural weight would AJ have a chance in hell of beating him?

Its crazy to talk about 'if they were the same size then this would happen or that would happen' boxing doesn't work like that and I would have thought people would understand that these days.

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Originally Posted by Batman

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Can you honestly say that if they were sized the same that Choco would have a chance in hell in beating guys with the pedigrees in boxing the level of Ward or Crawford.

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yeah but if you took a shrink ray and used it on AJ and shrunk him down to Choco's natural weight would AJ have a chance in hell of beating him?

Its crazy to talk about 'if they were the same size then this would happen or that would happen' boxing doesn't work like that and I would have thought people would understand that these days.

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Ok i put it this way who do you think is more unbeatable in the ring at there weights Choco or Ward and Crawford who do you think are more complete. Big reason why i did not think Choco was best guy in boxing was because he is not as complete as a fighter and not as unbeatable as say a Ward and Crawford are. Do not think i being crazy when i say that enless people think Choco is more complete fighter which i would say most would say no.

This was Gonzalez' 4th weight division remember, he is up in age for a little guy and he has been in many tough battles.

Ward arguably already lost in only his 2nd weight class.

They were both fighting top contenders, no shame in losing to a top guy. Wangek was to 5 at worst and that's only because the division has guys like Inoue, Gonzalez, Caudras etc.

Also every fighter has that one guy that has his number. Wangek might be that guy for Gonzalez. It took the best of 4 divisions to find him. Or all of Gonzalez' might have finally caught up to him.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Batman

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Can you honestly say that if they were sized the same that Choco would have a chance in hell in beating guys with the pedigrees in boxing the level of Ward or Crawford.

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yeah but if you took a shrink ray and used it on AJ and shrunk him down to Choco's natural weight would AJ have a chance in hell of beating him?

Its crazy to talk about 'if they were the same size then this would happen or that would happen' boxing doesn't work like that and I would have thought people would understand that these days.

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Ok i put it this way who do you think is more unbeatable in the ring at there weights Choco or Ward and Crawford who do you think are more complete. Big reason why i did not think Choco was best guy in boxing was because he is not as complete as a fighter and not as unbeatable as say a Ward and Crawford are. Do not think i being crazy when i say that enless people think Choco is more complete fighter which i would say most would say no.

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Are you talking now or Gonzalez of 112, or 108, or 105? Gonzalez at 112 was superb.

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Originally Posted by Alpha

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Batman

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Can you honestly say that if they were sized the same that Choco would have a chance in hell in beating guys with the pedigrees in boxing the level of Ward or Crawford.

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yeah but if you took a shrink ray and used it on AJ and shrunk him down to Choco's natural weight would AJ have a chance in hell of beating him?

Its crazy to talk about 'if they were the same size then this would happen or that would happen' boxing doesn't work like that and I would have thought people would understand that these days.

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Ok i put it this way who do you think is more unbeatable in the ring at there weights Choco or Ward and Crawford who do you think are more complete. Big reason why i did not think Choco was best guy in boxing was because he is not as complete as a fighter and not as unbeatable as say a Ward and Crawford are. Do not think i being crazy when i say that enless people think Choco is more complete fighter which i would say most would say no.

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Are you talking now or Gonzalez of 112, or 108, or 105? Gonzalez at 112 was superb.

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Ward and Crawford are not big at all for there weight classes see the size difference between Ward and Kov and that was just moving up a weight division. The biggest joke of all this is that 10 pounds makes up that many divisions. Not mention the difference in the talent pools in each division easy look great when the amount of people who are that size in the world are non extent. How many athletes at high level are under 115 pounds how many people are that big compared to guys who Crawford or Wards size. Look at the guys 115 pound champ was fighting out side of his lose more have negative records and some no pro boxing fights. How many guys do Ward and Crawford run into with no fights and under 20 fights losing records even there opponents do not fight that type.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Alpha

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Batman

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Originally Posted by Mr140

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Alpha

I did tell you not to bother.

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To be honest I thought I was dumbing down by not explaining for the millionth time about the culture of Thai boxing and their records.

I listened to a podcast/phone-in on youtube (TBV), the main host was arguing that Choco wasn't P4P because of the "tiny" purses he got paid. I kid you not. We've got to the stage where "fans" equate money over in ring ability/accomplishments.

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Can you honestly say that if they were sized the same that Choco would have a chance in hell in beating guys with the pedigrees in boxing the level of Ward or Crawford.

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yeah but if you took a shrink ray and used it on AJ and shrunk him down to Choco's natural weight would AJ have a chance in hell of beating him?

Its crazy to talk about 'if they were the same size then this would happen or that would happen' boxing doesn't work like that and I would have thought people would understand that these days.

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Ok i put it this way who do you think is more unbeatable in the ring at there weights Choco or Ward and Crawford who do you think are more complete. Big reason why i did not think Choco was best guy in boxing was because he is not as complete as a fighter and not as unbeatable as say a Ward and Crawford are. Do not think i being crazy when i say that enless people think Choco is more complete fighter which i would say most would say no.

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Are you talking now or Gonzalez of 112, or 108, or 105? Gonzalez at 112 was superb.

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Ward and Crawford are not big at all for there weight classes see the size difference between Ward and Kov and that was just moving up a weight division. The biggest joke of all this is that 10 pounds makes up that many divisions. Not mention the difference in the talent pools in each division easy look great when the amount of people who are that size in the world are non extent. How many athletes at high level are under 115 pounds how many people are that big compared to guys who Crawford or Wards size. Look at the guys 115 pound champ was fighting out side of his lose more have negative records and some no pro boxing fights. How many guys do Ward and Crawford run into with no fights and under 20 fights losing records even there opponents do not fight that type.

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Anyway sure you can pick Choco most unbeatable weight and if you think he looks more unstoppable then Ward or Crawford at there best then all the power to you. You and fenster have more invested in lower weights then i do.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

never watched Gonzalez

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Everyone has their own opinion but it says it all here for me.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Oh i watch a lot of boxing i been watching this sport for sometime but never watched Gonzalez and thought he best in the sport.

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Just to clear it up, Mr140 didn't say that he had never seen him fight.

When Floyd retired Gonzalez had to be in the conversation at that time. Just because someone doesn't think he looks like one of the best in the world doesn't mean his accomplishments didn't merit it.

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Originally Posted by Alpha

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Originally Posted by Mr140

never watched Gonzalez

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Everyone has their own opinion but it says it all here for me.

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Whoa!!! Steady on, @Ron Swanson is gonna go mental at that, he gets infuriated when people highlight the most significant part of a quote.

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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson

Loved your first post, but this one is the dishonesty that drives me crazy. You are on the right side of the argument, you don't need to pull the weak dishonest crap. Cutting off his sentence to make it seem he said something he didn't is Bush League

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Here you go, @Ron Swanson. You decipher the contradictions then get back to me about "dishonesty"

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Oh i watch a lot of boxing i been watching this sport for sometime but never watched Gonzalez and thought he best in the sport

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((I assume Mr140 accidentally left out the word NEVER as his opinion is Chocolatito was NEVER P4P no.1 worthy))

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Choco was pound for pound top 10 i am fine with that but the best in boxing eh that is pushing it.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Big reason why i did not think Choco was best guy in boxing was because he is not as complete as a fighter

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What was the problem again, Ron? Was I "dishonest" about Mr140 not knowing much about the lighterweights (which he admitted) or what...?

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Originally Posted by Batman

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Oh i watch a lot of boxing i been watching this sport for sometime but never watched Gonzalez and thought he best in the sport.

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Just to clear it up, Mr140 didn't say that he had never seen him fight.

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He just trying to change what i said because he does not agree with it. I have no problem having Choco in top 10 but the best in our sport don't see it he not as talented as Crawford or Ward and has not beaten better fighters either.

Is this about talking down Chocolatito and talking up Ward? Because if it is, why don't we just do a poll and be done with it?
Personally, I'd vote Choco................ twice.

Pretty clear Gonzalez had been collecting damage over last few fights that saw him hit the wall. He fought his opponents fight 1st time around and forced to do so in what really felt like rounds 13, 14 and 15th of first match. Rewatch of Estrada v Cuadras was fanfookintastic. Great ebb and flow and fun to watch two guys going in different directions as the fight went on. Honestly don't like either guys chance vs Wangek. Something tells me the powers that be fully expected Gonzalez to win pretty wide like it was nothing. Wonder if they plan on bringing Viloria in for someone who won on the undercard.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Is this about talking down Chocolatito and talking up Ward? Because if it is, why don't we just do a poll and be done with it?
Personally, I'd vote Choco................ twice.

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I am done talking about Ward do not even like him but there no way i would not say he not the best after the rematch Kov there is no question. Crawford will be the next guy in line who do like and hope he keeps climbing.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Pretty clear Gonzalez had been collecting damage over last few fights that saw him hit the wall. He fought his opponents fight 1st time around and forced to do so in what really felt like rounds 13, 14 and 15th of first match. Rewatch of Estrada v Cuadras was fanfookintastic. Great ebb and flow and fun to watch two guys going in different directions as the fight went on. Honestly don't like either guys chance vs Wangek. Something tells me the powers that be fully expected Gonzalez to win pretty wide like it was nothing. Wonder if they plan on bringing Viloria in for someone who won on the undercard.

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Estrada fight was fight of the night. I don't fancy him against the Thai guy either. I don't think he's a proper superfly either. Didn't he just move up to chase the Choco rematch/payday?

I want to see all those guys mixed and matched.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Pretty clear Gonzalez had been collecting damage over last few fights that saw him hit the wall. He fought his opponents fight 1st time around and forced to do so in what really felt like rounds 13, 14 and 15th of first match. Rewatch of Estrada v Cuadras was fanfookintastic. Great ebb and flow and fun to watch two guys going in different directions as the fight went on. Honestly don't like either guys chance vs Wangek. Something tells me the powers that be fully expected Gonzalez to win pretty wide like it was nothing. Wonder if they plan on bringing Viloria in for someone who won on the undercard.

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Estrada fight was fight of the night. I don't fancy him against the Thai guy either. I don't think he's a proper superfly either. Didn't he just move up to chase the Choco rematch/payday?

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I think he's been that weight for some time. His only step up was going from 3 straight guys who oddly enough turned pro the day of their fight and have not fought since :-X. Maybe they fought a bunch of Muay Thai so they weren't just parking cars at the casino but who knows. Regardless Wangek doesn't strike me as a guy who doubts for a minute he can beat someone. Guy is massive also and wonder what unofficial weight was. Guys from Thailand always look like the carry the David Tua leg gene, fookin tree trunks ;D.