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Every single thread always comes back to Mike Tyson and just how fucking unbeatable he was in his "prime" an era so mysterious people can't pin it down to an actual date :shakehead:
Was Mike Tyson a great boxer?
YES
Did Mike Tyson have a tough era?
HELL NO!
Back to the question at hand: Who will be the next boxing superstar?
NOT MIKE TYSON!!!!
BS.... Tyson for Holmes's left overs to a large degree, but Holmes's leftovers weren't slouches. Many of them went on to hold titles or be seriously dangerous contenders.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Tyson also had really tough guys that went on to long careers- wasn't until Bowe and Holyfield came along, most notably Bowe, who separated what a real HW champion should be and be dominant at it.
Bowe should have never fought Holyfield the second time around, now looking back at it.
Guys BOTH Holmes and Tyson fought: Holyfield, Michael Spinks, Carl Williams, James 'Bonecrusher' Smith, Marvis Frazier, and Trevor Berbick. That's it and to be honest Holmes did better vs Holyfield and better vs Smith which can't be argued.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamaja
Tyson did NOT fight other guys that gave Holmes a hard time: Snipes, Witherspoon, Shavers, Norton either because they retired, drugs ruined their careers, or they never recaptured their form which earned them the shots vs Holmes but the point is Mike Tyson didn't have a great era of difficult fighters and when real fighters entered his division they took over.
Bowe's career peaked and plummeted while Tyson was in prison now had Tyson actually fought him what would have happened? We can speculate but the fight never happened. Look at the records of Holyfield and Lewis and see the names they fought which Tyson chose not to fight or just avoided for some reason. He could have had a lot more interesting than oh Tyson vs: Orlin Norris, Julius Francis, Lou Savarese, Brian Nielsen.
After prison, after Holyfield, Mike Tyson never tried to be "the baddest man on the planet" in terms of boxing ability. He was a sideshow, an act, and though semi-successful at boxing while doing that he never really took on a true test other than Ruddock, Holyfield, and Lewis after losing to Douglas.
You mean other than obliterating Spinks?Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGuys BOTH Holmes and Tyson fought: Holyfield, Michael Spinks, Carl Williams, James 'Bonecrusher' Smith, Marvis Frazier, and Trevor Berbick. That's it and to be honest Holmes did better vs Holyfield and better vs Smith which can't be argued.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykdadamaja
Tyson did NOT fight other guys that gave Holmes a hard time: Snipes, Witherspoon, Shavers, Norton either because they retired, drugs ruined their careers, or they never recaptured their form which earned them the shots vs Holmes but the point is Mike Tyson didn't have a great era of difficult fighters and when real fighters entered his division they took over.
Bowe's career peaked and plummeted while Tyson was in prison now had Tyson actually fought him what would have happened? We can speculate but the fight never happened. Look at the records of Holyfield and Lewis and see the names they fought which Tyson chose not to fight or just avoided for some reason. He could have had a lot more interesting than oh Tyson vs: Orlin Norris, Julius Francis, Lou Savarese, Brian Nielsen.
After prison, after Holyfield, Mike Tyson never tried to be "the baddest man on the planet" in terms of boxing ability. He was a sideshow, an act, and though semi-successful at boxing while doing that he never really took on a true test other than Ruddock, Holyfield, and Lewis after losing to Douglas.
Forgot about him didnt you;)
;D
Its painful to read Tyson bashing when putting comparisons out there. When would lewis have been to much for a prime Tyson? When he struggled against Mercer who Holmes best comfortably? Got knocked out by Mikes sparring partner? Got knocked out by Rahman?
This is the thing, both Holyfield and Lewis never had a long consistent dominant period where they didn't have some kind of problem with some kind of opponent that a fighter as quick and dangerous as that Mike Tyson wouldn't have been able to capitalise on. The man that beat Holmes twice couldn't even get out of the first round with Mike. An older Holmes beat Mercer, pushed Holyfield and was robbed against McCall but he couldn't get to the half way point with that Mike.
:rolleyes: .....again :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Lewis actually FOUGHT Ray Mercer....Mike Tyson did NOT.
Oliver McCall had his moments in sparring with Mike Tyson as well...how would the figth have gone? We don't know as Mike Tyson NEVER FOUGHT McCall.
Hasim Rahman...how would Tyson have done against him? Well that's a good question as he's YET ANOTHER HEAVYWEIGHT MIKE TYSON DID NOT FIGHT!
Older Holmes blah blah blah blah....maybe Lennox Lewis should have fought the great Buster Douglas :shakehead:
Lennox Lewis fought David Tua and beat him handily how did Tyson do vs ....oh that's right he DIDN'T FIGHT HIM!
Evander fought Riddick Bowe 3 times how did he do vs ....OH THAT'S RIGHT TYSON DIDN'T FIGHT HIM!
Evander fought Michael Moorer twice how did Tyson do vs...DIDN'T FUCKING FIGHT HIM EITHER!
Now of course being the Tyson Retard you are you'll no doubt say "Well Tyson would have KO'd all of them, he was God in human form when he boxed" completely looking past the flaws of his style, personal life, and psyche.
Mike Tyson was a different era.
The fact his old opponents he wiped the floor with can go in to the nineties and have good success over people that were supposedly fighters who could handle Mike shows how good Mike was.
When Lewis beat Tyson it was 16 years after Mike had won his first world title.
When Joe louis lost to Marciano it was only 14 years later. Different eras.
Evander had a much rougher career anmore wear and tear than Tyson when they fought. He was also older. They were definitely from the same era, since that is so important to u. Tyson was, by his own admission, back to his best and destroying guys like Bruno more convincingly than he had in his prime. Evander was coming off a lackluster performance (which he was known for vs guys he felt were not a threat like HOLMES) and many feared for his safety. Evander dominated Tyson and broke his will just like he would have at any pinky in Tyson's career. Evander is easily a level above Mike Tyson as was Lennox Lewis.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
That second part is interesting? Who? Ok Holmes schools an over confident and ill advised Mercer...much like a Damiani had prior save for a single punch. Holmes pulled out every inch of shook & jive craft, guile and sharp jab to go 12 with Holyfield and then vomit all over his cornermen and self..literally, but by no means was that close. Holmes was also totally outjabbed and gifted a win vs Quinn Navarre, likewise twice out on his feet to Jesse Fergusson. Tucker made Douglas quit on his stool..certainly didn't translate into Tucker topping Tyson next or proving Douglas incapable of out boxing and beating Tyson. I don't think Lewis or Holyfield having tough fights and negative results speaks to Tysons mythical superiority "in his prime" but rather to each fighters level of competition and competiveness. Oh and often lost..Holyfield kicked Tysons ass..twice ;D:-XQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
I would like to see Danny Garcia to be amongst the next superstars but I am losing hope with his recent decisions. Not long ago I thought it was a given but things can change very quick.
What it shows was how good Tucker was and how quickly Tyson declined as King got in his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliThat second part is interesting? Who? Ok Holmes schools an over confident and ill advised Mercer...much like a Damiani had prior save for a single punch. Holmes pulled out every inch of shook & jive craft, guile and sharp jab to go 12 with Holyfield and then vomit all over his cornermen and self..literally, but by no means was that close. Holmes was also totally outjabbed and gifted a win vs Quinn Navarre, likewise twice out on his feet to Jesse Fergusson. Tucker made Douglas quit on his stool..certainly didn't translate into Tucker topping Tyson next or proving Douglas incapable of out boxing and beating Tyson. I don't think Lewis or Holyfield having tough fights and negative results speaks to Tysons mythical superiority "in his prime" but rather to each fighters level of competition and competiveness. Oh and often lost..Holyfield kicked Tysons ass..twice ;D:-XQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
Or maybe it shows that Tucker was just scared of the myth of Tyson and never gave himself a realistic chance to win. Here's another reality check for you: you are omitting an important aspect to Holmes performance vs Tyson, a Mercer and Evander. Holmes hadn't fought in two years when he walked into the ring cold vs Tyson. He learned his lesson (try reading articles on Holmes comeback sometime, and worked his way to Mercer, Evander, Mcall...etc. Holmes always said that he felt with some build up fights the Tyson debacle would've gone differently. Also, Holmes never pushed Evander like you make it sound. Evander suffered a honorific cut after being hit with an elbow, yet as stated above won a wide decision and had a Holmes puking at the final bell.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossWhat it shows was how good Tucker was and how quickly Tyson declined as King got in his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliThat second part is interesting? Who? Ok Holmes schools an over confident and ill advised Mercer...much like a Damiani had prior save for a single punch. Holmes pulled out every inch of shook & jive craft, guile and sharp jab to go 12 with Holyfield and then vomit all over his cornermen and self..literally, but by no means was that close. Holmes was also totally outjabbed and gifted a win vs Quinn Navarre, likewise twice out on his feet to Jesse Fergusson. Tucker made Douglas quit on his stool..certainly didn't translate into Tucker topping Tyson next or proving Douglas incapable of out boxing and beating Tyson. I don't think Lewis or Holyfield having tough fights and negative results speaks to Tysons mythical superiority "in his prime" but rather to each fighters level of competition and competiveness. Oh and often lost..Holyfield kicked Tysons ass..twice ;D:-XQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
If Mike scared Tucker it was because he was a fearsome prospect back then. To last the distance you had to spoil or try to actually win, fight and risk getting knocked out by those quick combinations.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeodOr maybe it shows that Tucker was just scared of the myth of Tyson and never gave himself a realistic chance to win. Here's another reality check for you: you are omitting an important aspect to Holmes performance vs Tyson, a Mercer and Evander. Holmes hadn't fought in two years when he walked into the ring cold vs Tyson. He learned his lesson (try reading articles on Holmes comeback sometime, and worked his way to Mercer, Evander, Mcall...etc. Holmes always said that he felt with some build up fights the Tyson debacle would've gone differently. Also, Holmes never pushed Evander like you make it sound. Evander suffered a honorific cut after being hit with an elbow, yet as stated above won a wide decision and had a Holmes puking at the final bell.Quote:
Originally Posted by rossWhat it shows was how good Tucker was and how quickly Tyson declined as King got in his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliThat second part is interesting? Who? Ok Holmes schools an over confident and ill advised Mercer...much like a Damiani had prior save for a single punch. Holmes pulled out every inch of shook & jive craft, guile and sharp jab to go 12 with Holyfield and then vomit all over his cornermen and self..literally, but by no means was that close. Holmes was also totally outjabbed and gifted a win vs Quinn Navarre, likewise twice out on his feet to Jesse Fergusson. Tucker made Douglas quit on his stool..certainly didn't translate into Tucker topping Tyson next or proving Douglas incapable of out boxing and beating Tyson. I don't think Lewis or Holyfield having tough fights and negative results speaks to Tysons mythical superiority "in his prime" but rather to each fighters level of competition and competiveness. Oh and often lost..Holyfield kicked Tysons ass..twice ;D:-XQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
How long was Mayweather out when he fought Marquez? Leonard when he fought Hagler?
Holmes never pushed Holyfield? He pushed him to a decision did he not? He couldn't get out of the 4th round with Tyson. He was 4 years older when he fought Holyfield;D
Holmes didn't push him to a decision, he used every bit of heart, guile and trick at his disposal to SURVIVE to the decision. There is a difference. Regardless, the bottom line is that when Tyson was favored to beat Evander he was broken mentally and knocked out. Any excuse or abstract thought process you want to use is meaningless. Also, the majority of the boxing public agrees that Tyson feasted in inferior competition, and that Holmes, Lewis, Evander were all superior fighters during their prime years. U r definitively a HUGE Tyson fan, which is a good things as I think Mike is a good guy for the most part. We will just agree to disagree I guess...
No. What you are doing is refusing to accept that some of the same fighters Mike beat with ease in his actual prime gave the fighters you want to think that are better than Mike a harder fight years later. Thats ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
Mike fought. Holyfield 10 years after winning the title and 4 years enforced absence. He was not the same fighter that even beat Alex Stewart in a round. The same Alex Stewart that was robbed against Foreman and took Holyfield, Moorer and Maskaev rounds.
What majority of boxing public?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod