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Originally Posted by Bilbo
...no Bute you was totally KO, he didn´t even realize that there was a "small" problem for the ref. to count to 10.
Next time they can borrow my Kid, she is 3 years old now, but the already knows how to count to 10....
Sorry for the hass remarks regarding Montreal, Im just pissed that this is more like WWE than boxing.
yeah my point is that i see people already writing shit about Bute. i'll be honest i wanted Andrade to spark out Bute and i thought he did but how is that Bute's fault that the ref is a dickwad. as much as i was angry about the ending result, i wont take anything away from Bute. unless anyone can prove that Bute and the ref had some sort of agreement than its just stupid to say shit about any fighter who clearly gave his all and left it all in the ring (and by all i mean ALL, being KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT!!!) In paper Bute won, in almost everyone's mind and heart Andrade won.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI agree with every word you wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_tha_man
Again, I agree completely. I'm not even a big fan of the guy, I was cheering for Andrade as well, but it's ridiculous to blame Bute.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_tha_manyeah my point is that i see people already writing shit about Bute. i'll be honest i wanted Andrade to spark put Bute and i thought he did but how is that Bute's fault that the ref is a dickwad. as much as i was angry about the ending result, i wont take anything away from Bute. unless anyone can prove that Bute and the ref had some sort of agreement than its just stupid to say shit about any fighter who clearly gave his all and left it all in the ring (and by all i mean ALL, being KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT!!!) In paper Bute won, in almost everyone's mind and heart Andrade won.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI agree with every word you wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_tha_man
My issue is not with Bute at all, but from the third round on the ref was clearly there to protect Bute, and disrupt Andrade. I believe a rematch with a new ref if more than justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_tha_manyeah my point is that i see people already writing shit about Bute. i'll be honest i wanted Andrade to spark put Bute and i thought he did but how is that Bute's fault that the ref is a dickwad. as much as i was angry about the ending result, i wont take anything away from Bute. unless anyone can prove that Bute and the ref had some sort of agreement than its just stupid to say shit about any fighter who clearly gave his all and left it all in the ring (and by all i mean ALL, being KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT!!!) In paper Bute won, in almost everyone's mind and heart Andrade won.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI agree with every word you wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_tha_man
Nobody's blaming bute, they're blaming the corrupt asshole who gave him a 20 count and then let the fight continue even though bute couldn't stand on his own accord. And after the bell should have rang.
A rematch is completely justified, hopefully if not in a more neutral location then with a completely neutral staff. The reffing was a total farce and some of the worst I have ever seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepMy issue is not with Bute at all, but from the third round on the ref was clearly there to protect Bute, and disrupt Andrade. I believe a rematch with a new ref if more than justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_tha_manyeah my point is that i see people already writing shit about Bute. i'll be honest i wanted Andrade to spark put Bute and i thought he did but how is that Bute's fault that the ref is a dickwad. as much as i was angry about the ending result, i wont take anything away from Bute. unless anyone can prove that Bute and the ref had some sort of agreement than its just stupid to say shit about any fighter who clearly gave his all and left it all in the ring (and by all i mean ALL, being KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT!!!) In paper Bute won, in almost everyone's mind and heart Andrade won.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
excatly my point, the asshole ref is the retard that should get the blaim. and i agree Killer, with a diferent Ref in a rematch this could be a highly anticipated bout especially with the controversy. i would like to see it ;D
Smoger or Bayless would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_tha_man
Corruption has to be rooted out. The ref didn't even try to hide it. disgusting.
I think the outcry generated by this fight will leave the IBF no choice but to stage a rematch.
Now we can say Andrade is the first to KO Bute!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBLibrado Andrade is limited thats why he is the underdog, yes his defense has improved. But facts are facts he has a good chin a big heart, but what much else is there ? he is an exciting fighter and im not trying to diss him he is great for the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito BHB
But he is just a come forward fighter with not alot of skill sets, and relies on his strength and chin to win him fights. Lucian Bute has beaten tough fighters like Sakio Bika, Kabary Salem, with no real trouble. If you have followed or watched Lucian Butes fights, its not hard to see why he is the favorite.
yes a rematch now that Andrade has the advantage...after that KO, but Bute will never ever go in there with Andrade again.
And this shows Kessler that belts are not important.... I hope that in the Ring Andrade gets past Bute to recognize the KO
Smoger is the best ref around. I wouldn't complain about Bayless either, though to be honest I'm not all that familiar with him. I've never heard anything bad about him though.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepSmoger or Bayless would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_tha_man
Andrade is soooo one dimensional (heavy sarcasm).
Why not? He was schooling him for almost the entire fight. He'll know that he got careless at the end when he decided to trade shots with Andrade. I'd be surprised if he didn't fight Andrade in his next fight. The IBF won't give him any choice in the matter if justice is delivered.Quote:
Originally Posted by thewhale
alright guys good chatting. goodnight to all and since its 230 pm here in Korea its time for me to get to work, later :cool:
He is one dimensional, there's nothing wrong with that. He's a very good pressure fighter with power, much like Margarito, but he's not going to outboxed many people or dazzle them with his defensive prowess. I like Andrade a lot, but I fail to see how he is not one dimensional.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
He may be limited but he still gets the job done when there is no cheating involved.
I don't disagree, except for the Kessler fight, but I do stand by the assertion that Andrade is pretty one dimensional.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
Andrade does one thing, no matter how well he does it, it's just one thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI don't disagree, except for the Kessler fight, but I do stand by the assertion that Andrade is pretty one dimensional.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
Kessler was much more impressive against Andrade than Bute IMO.
That's what I was saying. I like Andrade a lot, but as you say, he does one thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepAndrade does one thing, no matter how well he does it, it's just one thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI don't disagree, except for the Kessler fight, but I do stand by the assertion that Andrade is pretty one dimensional.Quote:
Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer
Kessler was much more impressive against Andrade than Bute IMO.
Kessler-Andrade was a boxing lesson on par with Winky-Tito, though the caliber of fighters was obviously different.
unreal. i was so mad!!!!!
the canadian ref and whole darn setup was fixed.
1. he had bute hurt/wobbled a few times, but the ref gave him recovery time EVERY fucking time!!!!
2. the knokdown by bute was a push/trip!!!! no knockdown!
3. 12 rd was the worst ref'ing i ever saw. why was he yelling at andrade at all, he was in his corner doing nothing!!! that was sooo fixed.
the ref was a bad actor too!!! he got a payment under the table for sure.
felt bad for andrade, but bute was no chump, he was a good fighter.
i wanna slap that ref though...my god what a crooked idiot.
In the old days Bute survived. But in this new age He Andrade should be the winner by TKO. Rematch baby!!!
unreal. i was so mad!!!!!
the canadian ref and whole darn setup was fixed.
1. he had bute hurt/wobbled a few times, but the ref gave him recovery time EVERY fucking time!!!!
2. the knokdown by bute was a push/trip!!!! no knockdown!
3. 12 rd was the worst ref'ing i ever saw. why was he yelling at andrade at all, he was in his corner doing nothing!!! that was sooo fixed.
the ref was a bad actor too!!! he got a payment under the table for sure.
felt bad for andrade, but bute was no chump, he was a good fighter.
i wanna slap that ref though...my god what a crooked idiot.
It very much reminded me of the second Marcus Beyer Danny Green fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by #1FightFan
Beyer was a decent technical fighter whereas Green was a big puncher with a decent chin. For 11 rounds Green tried to box Beyer and lost virtually every round.
When he finally stepped it up he almost ktfo Beyer.
I think Bute will prove to be like Beyer and Andrade is very much like Green, although probably not as good a boxer.
I'd love to see a rematch. I really don't know if second time around Bute would fight smarter and avoid exchanges thus winning easily or if Andrade knowing he can hurt Bute whilst not being hurt himself will just relentlessly go for the knockout and batter the shit out of him.
Either way they really should fight again.
A few points:
- Interesting fact: Marlon B. Wright, the referee for the fight, is a personal friend of Howard Grant's (Montreal native), Andrade's trainer.
- The fight result is very controversial in Montreal. On Montreal Talk Radio, a majority of listeners say Andrade was robbed. A caller said it was the most egregious boxing outcome he ever saw.
- A boxer must go to the neutral corner when his opponent is on the ground as result of a punch. He told Andrade to go to the neutral corner three times.
I'm just playing Devil's Advoccate here but Bute probably would've won anyway whether he was counted correctly or not...
There was literally 2 seconds left when Bute went down. Even if the ref had counted him to 10 correctly, then allowed him to continue fighting the final bell would have gone before Andrade got to him again.
I know Bute was out on hs feet but he was standing so I reckon he would have been capable of raising his gloves. Thats all he would have needed to do to win the fight, raise his gloves...
All this is hyerthetcal anyway, if the ref had done his job then we'd know for sure
I really don't think for a second that the fight was fixed or that the ref favoured one fighter over the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by montsegur1234
I just think it was a very unique high pressure situation and the ref didn't handle it well.
To be honest I really don't know the rulings well enough to know if the ref acted wrongly or not according to the letter of the law either.
I mean I know that the regulations state that when a fighter is knocked down the other fighter MUST immediately go to the furthest neutral corner and that he MUST remain there until the referee resumes the fight.
Now Andrade clearly wasn't right up against the ropes in the neutral corner and if he was walking towards to the center of the ring, which it seems he was to be completely fair to the referee, I guess the ref felt he had to tell him to move back.
It may have been one of those cases where the ref acted in poor judgement but in his defense this was a pretty freak circumstance and I imagine all three of them in the ring were pretty shocked by what was going on.
I mean if Andrade had just gone immediately to a neutral corner and not moved the ref wouldn't have told him to move back.
So yes I do think it was harsh, but ultimately Andrade to a degree was responsible as he did move from the corner, even if only by a little amount.
Just one of those things I guess.
I hope they have a rematch though, I think both fighters will feel like they need some redemption after that.
the question is was he down for 10 seconds.. the fact that there was no time remaining for andrade to get to bute is irrelevant..Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrad
you have to think of it as it was the end of any other round, not the end of the fight, because the rule is that you can't get saved by the bell.. so if it was the end of the second round, and this happened, the ref starts to count, if he doesn't get up by 10, it's KO obviously.. if he gets up before 10, the ref decides if he can continue to fight.. thing is, if it's the end of a round, the fighter goes back to his corner, the doctor will probably evaluate him along with the rest of his team, the ref will probably come over, and it's a different story.. the fact that bute got up before 10, wobbly and all, it would've been even more controversial if he called it a KO considering he fought for 12 3 minute rounds, and just because he wouldn't be able to fight past that, doesn't mean he loses the fight..
i counted from when he got knocked down, and i was at about 8 i believe.. rematch would be great, but i feel pretty confident in saying that bute won that fight.
The more I think about it, the more I can understand the perspective you are presenting, and if it I was just looking at the final around in isolation I would agree, as it is I'm not sure how I feel about the end of the fight at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33the question is was he down for 10 seconds.. the fact that there was no time remaining for andrade to get to bute is irrelevant..Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrad
you have to think of it as it was the end of any other round, not the end of the fight, because the rule is that you can't get saved by the bell.. so if it was the end of the second round, and this happened, the ref starts to count, if he doesn't get up by 10, it's KO obviously.. if he gets up before 10, the ref decides if he can continue to fight.. thing is, if it's the end of a round, the fighter goes back to his corner, the doctor will probably evaluate him along with the rest of his team, the ref will probably come over, and it's a different story.. the fact that bute got up before 10, wobbly and all, it would've been even more controversial if he called it a KO considering he fought for 12 3 minute rounds, and just because he wouldn't be able to fight past that, doesn't mean he loses the fight..
i counted from when he got knocked down, and i was at about 8 i believe.. rematch would be great, but i feel pretty confident in saying that bute won that fight.
However, the ref was favoring Bute from the outset, letting him hold without warning (even warning Andrade for holding???), letting him grab at Andrade's legs on 3 occasions, giving Bute a break whenever Andrade seemed to hurt him a bit, and just generally refing the fight in a very biased way. For me, this fight ATM is an ND and there needs to be a rematch in a neutral location to determine a winner. Sadly, I think Bute schools Andrade next time, but it needs to happen.
Edit: I just remembered all the headbutts and elbows Andrade was getting away with, so perhaps the refs was simply incompetent? Though I do feel he was clearly favoring Bute.
Interesting ESPN article about the fight.
ESPN - Lucian Bute defeats Librado Andrade, but questions remain
Ok, sorry guys, but I fell asleep and only just watched this embarrasment to the sport. First of all, why would someone agree to a referee from the hometown of the fighter during a fight in this same hometown? Don't know. . .
I watched this over and over. . .
All I can say is that whoever was the timekeeper keeping the count was corrupt, but so was the ref. When the ref picked up the count, I was already a few seconds ahead of his count which was given by the timekeeper. Ok, maybe I started early. Let's assume that. But then how can the ref verbalize and show a 7 count and then tell Andrade "get back in that corner, get back in that corner" several times (even though he clearly was nowhere near the middle of the ring) only to then turn around, check with the ringside timekeeper and resume the count at 8!!! There were clearly 3-4 seconds gone as he told Andrade to get back. The count was clearly past 10 by the time the ref came back. This was so, so obviously a fix in the works that it was embarrassing to me as a sports fan, let alone boxing. Bute should be embarrassed too.
Interesting article and one which I think it pretty accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Amidst all the cries of 'fix' and 'corruption!' it does need to be stated that Bute did indeed get up, he beat the count and would probably have hung on to his belt as there was no time left in the round.
I also completely and 100% disagree with anyone who says the fight should have been stopped, to stop Bute when he had beaten the count, after winning virtually all the preceeding rounds, and with around 5 seconds to go in the fight would have been an even greater farcical act of incompetence..
I think ultimately Andrade in not going and staying the neutral corner shares as much responsibility as the ref in the long count, the fact is if he had gone straight to the neutral corner and stayed there the ref wouldn't have delayed the count.
Like the ESPN analyst said the controversial nature of the ending will ensure Andrade's stock doesn't drop at all and he may yet get a rematch.
I don't think people should hate on Bute either. He completey outboxed Andrade for most of the fight and no matter what anyone says he DID get up before the count of 10 no matter when you start counting.
I just hope we can see them do it again
Kimball can suck it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
No hate on Bute, but he got KTFO. There should be a rematch and it shouldn't be in Montreal.
He may have gotten up before 10 but he was out on his feet. He didn't know where he was, he used the ropes to prop up his body because he couldn't stand without them. If a fighter cannot continue then it's a tko. If there were at least 30 seconds left bute could have been killed in there. He was in la la land.
Canada rivals Germany for corruption it seems. They make the Vegas crooks look like angels
Because of one fight? I can't believe I'm defending Quebec/Montreal here, but there is a long history of shady decisions and outright robberies in German, one bad ref does not make Montreal on par with Germany. The only two fights I can think of with shady decisions in Montreal are Bute - Andrade and Ngoudjo - Bailey (which was a very close fight).Quote:
Originally Posted by C.J.Rock
Where did you see Andrade not in the neurtral corner? Even when you start the count when Bute was down, the count was still slow when the ref picked up the count from the timekeeper. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Regardless of the knockdown, just before this bute was all over the place and seemed to not be able to defend himself, it should have been stopped because he was just clinching and hanging on for dear life,
I feel disgusted because i really like Andrade and feel very bad for him. Look at the way he went and made things ok with the ref after too, what a great sportsman.
Couldn't be saved by the bell in the last round of this fight (per rules). If he was unable to continue after a real 10 count, fight would have been stopped. By my 10 count, he was wobbling and not even able to face the referee at that time. Now, most refs wouldn't have stopped it unless he was not able to stand up. . .but this ref was so blatant with his cheating - it's a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conrad