Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
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Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man. ;)
Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.
Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.
Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.
When Ricky beat Kostya, MANY people considered him no.2 behind Floyd at 140. Even though Floyd was CLEARLY a better fighter than Ricky, Ricky was still THE MAN because he beat THE MAN. Simple as.
You see it is the same with Casa.
Casa was the man from when he beat Diego Corrales. Just because people rated Diaz a better fighter doesn't give him claim to the "man that beat the man" throne. ;)
Exactly. the argument on both sides is flawed. To be undisputed you have to go through most of your top competition at THAT weight. The paralles to Casa and Hatton are uncanny. I'm a big Joe Calzghe fan, but I certainly con't consider him undisputed no.1 at LH, but he is at SM.
Number 1 at lightweight will remain vacant in my eyes until it's sorted in the ring.
On a side note, hope JMM against Nate next, be a travesty if Juan gets a shot at JMM before Nate, JD is young enough to wait for his shot, and went to the back of the queu after losing to Campbell.
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
I am sure it has been stated already... But my take on it is this.
You got Casa as champ. All-be-it a champ who has had a couple gifts. Now a dethroned champ. Now JMM beats him up... convincingly...
You've got J Diaz... He clears out the division loses to Nate. Kudos Nate your the champ.
So its the man who beat the man(JMM)... vs the man who beat the man who beat everybody (Nate).
Pac came in there and beat a somebody. And, although Pac beat JMM in another division AND only slightly (or not according to some) you have to give JMM credit for beating a tougher bigger stronger higher ranking opponent.
As for P4P that is where you'll see Pac above him until JMM gets the Win...
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
I do not agree
Campbell is number 1 as he is the unified champion
Manny Pacquiao is number 2 as WBC champ and the man who recently beat Marquez
Juan Manuel Marquez is lucky to get the number 3 spot IMO cuz I think Baby Bull Diaz has done more than him at the weight .
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GAME
I do not agree
Campbell is number 1 as he us teh unified champion
Manny Pacquiao is number 2 as WBC champ and the man who recently beat Marquez
Juan Manuel Marquez is lucky to get the number 3 spot IMO cuz I think Baby Bull Diaz has done more than him at the weight .
:appl:
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
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Originally Posted by
ICB
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Originally Posted by
brucelee
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Originally Posted by
Bilbo
The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.
Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.
But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?
I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.
But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.
Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.
He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.
Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.
Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.
Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.
Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.
You've said it well Bilbo. I give the number 1 ranking to Campbell and number 2 to pacquaio. Jmm would be number 3.
No way would it go to Marquez.:cool:
No way it would go to Juan Manuel Marquez ? then why do you rate your boy higher ? clearly stopping Joel Casamayor is a better achievement than beating David Diaz a fight which 95 percent thought was a mismatch.
Marquez vs. Casa was also projected as a mismatch with JMM a 4 to 1 favorite but what a surprise, the fight was a very close one after 10 rounds with 2 judges scoring the fight even at 95-95...
PAC vs. Diaz is also a mismatch and PAC live up to expectations by not giving a single round to Diaz, a total domination and knocking out Diaz in the 9th round... JMM stopped Casa in the 11th round... ;)
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
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Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
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Originally Posted by
ICB
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Originally Posted by
brucelee
You've said it well Bilbo. I give the number 1 ranking to Campbell and number 2 to pacquaio. Jmm would be number 3.
No way would it go to Marquez.:cool:
No way it would go to Juan Manuel Marquez ? then why do you rate your boy higher ? clearly stopping Joel Casamayor is a better achievement than beating David Diaz a fight which 95 percent thought was a mismatch.
Marquez vs. Casa was also projected as a mismatch with JMM a 4 to 1 favorite but what a surprise, the fight was a very close one after 10 rounds with 2 judges scoring the fight even at 95-95...
PAC vs. Diaz is also a mismatch and PAC live up to expectations by not giving a single round to Diaz, a total domination and knocking out Diaz in the 9th round... JMM stopped Casa in the 11th round... ;)
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I would love to the know betting odds for Manny Pacquiao vs David Diaz because that was a mismatch if i ever saw one and if you look at my posts before the fight i even said then Pacquiao would brutally give Diaz a beating its a fact that Diaz was considered the weakest champion at Lightweight and was lucky to still have a hold of his belt and everyone on this forum gave Diaz no chance at all infact not one person on this forum picked him to win where as Joel Casamayor although he was 37 people still thought he would give Marquez a tough fight in which he did and he also had the Ring Magazine belt please do not compare David Diaz to Joel Casamayor there in two totally different leagues and Marquez's win is clearly a better win considering the opposition.
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
No way it would go to Juan Manuel Marquez ? then why do you rate your boy higher ? clearly stopping Joel Casamayor is a better achievement than beating David Diaz a fight which 95 percent thought was a mismatch.
Marquez vs. Casa was also projected as a mismatch with JMM a 4 to 1 favorite but what a surprise, the fight was a very close one after 10 rounds with 2 judges scoring the fight even at 95-95...
PAC vs. Diaz is also a mismatch and PAC live up to expectations by not giving a single round to Diaz, a total domination and knocking out Diaz in the 9th round... JMM stopped Casa in the 11th round... ;)
.
I would love to the know betting odds for Manny Pacquiao vs David Diaz because that was a mismatch if i ever saw one and if you look at my posts before the fight i even said then Pacquiao would brutally give Diaz a beating its a fact that Diaz was considered the weakest champion at Lightweight and was lucky to still have a hold of his belt and everyone on this forum gave Diaz no chance at all infact not one person on this forum picked him to win where as Joel Casamayor although he was 37 people still thought he would give Marquez a tough fight in which he did and he also had the Ring Magazine belt please do not compare David Diaz to Joel Casamayor there in two totally different leagues and Marquez's win is clearly a better win considering the opposition.
On paper JMM's win over Casa looks better because Casa is the bigger name with better resume compared to David Diaz but IMO, in terms of actual opposition David Diaz offers a tougher opposition to both PAC and JMM than Casa... Now analyze what will be the outcome of these match-ups;
PAC vs. Casa and JMM vs. David Diaz
I'm guessing David Diaz will survive a UD12 loss to JMM and Casa will be starched by PAC inside 6 rounds... ;)
BTW if I remember it right PAC was also a 4 to 1 favorite over Diaz...
And one last note, David Diaz stopped the guy Santa Cruz who "defeated" Casamayor... ;)
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ;)) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?
I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.
For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as ;D
Ah come on man you're making me bang my head against a wall now!
I AGREE with you, Marquez is the CHAMPION according the title lineage and the RING magazine. I've AGREED all along.
BUT on a straight ranking system of who has done the most and who has beaten who, Manny is number 1 becuase he is the best p4p fighter on the planet. He beat Marquez last time. Campbell is higher becuase he beat Juan Diaz who held 3 world titel belts and was clearly the worlds best lightweight.
I'm not claiming that my rankings should be the Ring magazines rankings they should not, I'm just claiming that they are the most accurate.
Is it really that hard to understand? All I'm saying is that Manny Pacquaio is the best fighter in the lightweight division courtesy of being considered the best fighter in the world, and Campbell is second courtesy of beating who EVERYBODY considered to be the best lightweight in the world in Juan Diaz.
Marquez beat Casamayor who had been stripped of his belt for inactivity and who got schooled completely and utterly by Santa Cruz and who almost lost to the mediocre Katsidis. He was a shell of his former self.
So again, my rankings are not meant to be official, they are not meant to replace the Ring magazines hallowed ratings they just reflect in my little opinion the most accurate state of affairs in the lightweight division.
PLease stop going on about the champ beating the champ because I've agreed with you regarding this since my fisrt post in this thread.
Officialy Marquez is THE MAN for beating the man. I'm just saying, and have said all along, that this isn't the most accurate ranking and that Pacquaio and Campbell should rate higher, if only in my purely fictictious and hypothetical ranking system.
Thankyou :p
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ;)) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?
I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.
For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as ;D
Fenster I agree with everything you are saying except for the JMM is better than Pac! Both fights were too close to call for me and could have gone either way but that to me is just because stylistically JMM is a nightmare for Pac. But if you were to have a little league with say a prime Morales, prime Barrera, prime JMM and prime Pac I would predict it to be like this:
1)Manny Pacquiao W-2 L-0 D-1 Pts-7
2)Marco Barrera W-2 L-1 D-0 Pts-6
3)Erik Morales W-1 L-2 D-0 Pts-3
4)JM Marquez W-0 L-2 D-1 Pts-1
My league is set up in a football type style with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw and this is honestly how I would see it panning out. I see both Barrera and Morales beating JMM in their primes and I do not believe you can use the existing fight between JMM and Barrera as Barrera was way past his best but still gave a good account of himself and who knows what would have happened had Jay Nady not been in charge that night.
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ;)) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?
I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.
For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as ;D
Fenster I agree with everything you are saying except for the JMM is better than Pac! Both fights were too close to call for me and could have gone either way but that to me is just because stylistically JMM is a nightmare for Pac. But if you were to have a little league with say a prime Morales, prime Barrera, prime JMM and prime Pac I would predict it to be like this:
1)Manny Pacquiao W-2 L-0 D-1 Pts-7
2)Marco Barrera W-2 L-1 D-0 Pts-6
3)Erik Morales W-1 L-2 D-0 Pts-3
4)JM Marquez W-0 L-2 D-1 Pts-1
My league is set up in a football type style with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw and this is honestly how I would see it panning out. I see both Barrera and Morales beating JMM in their primes and I do not believe you can use the existing fight between JMM and Barrera as Barrera was way past his best but still gave a good account of himself and who knows what would have happened had Jay Nady not been in charge that night.
I'll say this much. In Morales, Barrera, Pacquaio and Marquez we have seen superstar fighters to rival Leonard, Hearns, Hagler and Duran.
The way they have all started at the lower weights and consistently moved up to dominate whatever divisions they were in over the past decade or more has been sensational.
From bantam to lightweight these guys have dominated and should go down in history as the great little guys quartet in boxing history.
Boxing will be much the emptier when all four of these legends finally call it a day.
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ;)) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?
I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.
For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as ;D
Fenster I agree with everything you are saying except for the JMM is better than Pac! Both fights were too close to call for me and could have gone either way but that to me is just because stylistically JMM is a nightmare for Pac. But if you were to have a little league with say a prime Morales, prime Barrera, prime JMM and prime Pac I would predict it to be like this:
1)Manny Pacquiao W-2 L-0 D-1 Pts-7
2)Marco Barrera W-2 L-1 D-0 Pts-6
3)Erik Morales W-1 L-2 D-0 Pts-3
4)JM Marquez W-0 L-2 D-1 Pts-1
My league is set up in a football type style with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw and this is honestly how I would see it panning out. I see both Barrera and Morales beating JMM in their primes and I do not believe you can use the existing fight between JMM and Barrera as Barrera was way past his best but still gave a good account of himself and who knows what would have happened had Jay Nady not been in charge that night.
I'll say this much. In Morales, Barrera, Pacquaio and Marquez we have seen superstar fighters to rival Leonard, Hearns, Hagler and Duran.
The way they have all started at the lower weights and consistently moved up to dominate whatever divisions they were in over the past decade or more has been sensational.
From bantam to lightweight these guys have dominated and should go down in history as the great little guys quartet in boxing history.
Boxing will be much the emptier when all four of these legends finally call it a day.
Amen to that
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Fenster I agree with everything you are saying except for the JMM is better than Pac! Both fights were too close to call for me and could have gone either way but that to me is just because stylistically JMM is a nightmare for Pac. But if you were to have a little league with say a prime Morales, prime Barrera, prime JMM and prime Pac I would predict it to be like this:
1)Manny Pacquiao W-2 L-0 D-1 Pts-7
2)Marco Barrera W-2 L-1 D-0 Pts-6
3)Erik Morales W-1 L-2 D-0 Pts-3
4)JM Marquez W-0 L-2 D-1 Pts-1
My league is set up in a football type style with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw and this is honestly how I would see it panning out. I see both Barrera and Morales beating JMM in their primes and I do not believe you can use the existing fight between JMM and Barrera as Barrera was way past his best but still gave a good account of himself and who knows what would have happened had Jay Nady not been in charge that night.
I don't have a problem with Pac getting the decision over Marquez, they were close fights, I just feel Marquez won both. That makes Marquez better than Pac without meaning better overall career wise. I think Barrera overall is a better fighter than Pac yet fully respect Pac beat him twice (i'm stopping with this stuff before I confuse myself :-\).
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ;)) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?
I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.
For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as ;D
Ah come on man you're making me bang my head against a wall now!
I AGREE with you, Marquez is the CHAMPION according the title lineage and the RING magazine. I've AGREED all along.
BUT on a straight ranking system of who has done the most and who has beaten who, Manny is number 1 becuase he is the best p4p fighter on the planet. He beat Marquez last time. Campbell is higher becuase he beat Juan Diaz who held 3 world titel belts and was clearly the worlds best lightweight.
I'm not claiming that my rankings should be the Ring magazines rankings they should not, I'm just claiming that they are the most accurate.
Is it really that hard to understand? All I'm saying is that Manny Pacquaio is the best fighter in the lightweight division courtesy of being considered the best fighter in the world, and Campbell is second courtesy of beating who EVERYBODY considered to be the best lightweight in the world in Juan Diaz.
Marquez beat Casamayor who had been stripped of his belt for inactivity and who got schooled completely and utterly by Santa Cruz and who almost lost to the mediocre Katsidis. He was a shell of his former self.
So again, my rankings are not meant to be official, they are not meant to replace the Ring magazines hallowed ratings they just reflect in my little opinion the most accurate state of affairs in the lightweight division.
PLease stop going on about the champ beating the champ because I've agreed with you regarding this since my fisrt post in this thread.
Officialy Marquez is THE MAN for beating the man. I'm just saying, and have said all along, that this isn't the most accurate ranking and that Pacquaio and Campbell should rate higher, if only in my purely fictictious and hypothetical ranking system.
Thankyou :p
;D
My first post was -
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?
Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact. ;)
I understand what you're saying. Instead of qualifying the worth of Campbell and Diaz by their "three world title belts" just say you believe they were showing the far more impressive form compared with Casa.
The belts are the problem. And if you trace back, i'm pretty sure you'll find the lineal champ had been stripped of all at some point, hence why three ended up with Juan Diaz, even though he never faced the lineal champ and one ended up with David Diaz.
Casa was stripped by the WBC for choosing to pursue a far more lucrative fight with Acileno Frietas over David Diaz. That is nonsense. Makes Diaz as WBC champion nonsense, so inturn makes Pac as WBC champion nonsense - even though Pac is worthy of being a top lightweight and is clearly P4P no.2 (according to Fenster's rankings) ;)
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Exactly Fenster!
I understand where Bilbo is coming from but thats what P4P rankings are for. Divisional ratings are different because there is a champion at the top & I can't see how anyone can rate somebody above the champ!
As I've said through out this thread the champion is not always the best fighter in the division but they deserve the respect as champion. P4P is for ranking on order of form & accomplishments. You can't become champ without beating the champ.
As Fenster & I have stated before all those paper titles that Nate holds were either stripped or given up dating back to Castillo!
Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?
Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact. ;)
Juan Diaz was considered the man when Nate Campbell beat him and he was considered the best Lightweight at that time and was also top 10 P4P.
Casa was the man from when he beat Corrales ;)
what the?? hahaha
