Bute v. Andrade Poll

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Originally Posted by DC Amateur Boxing

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Originally Posted by Conrad

I'm just playing Devil's Advoccate here but Bute probably would've won anyway whether he was counted correctly or not...

There was literally 2 seconds left when Bute went down. Even if the ref had counted him to 10 correctly, then allowed him to continue fighting the final bell would have gone before Andrade got to him again.

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Couldn't be saved by the bell in the last round of this fight (per rules). If he was unable to continue after a real 10 count, fight would have been stopped. By my 10 count, he was wobbling and not even able to face the referee at that time. Now, most refs wouldn't have stopped it unless he was not able to stand up. . .but this ref was so blatant with his cheating - it's a shame.

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Author calls Wright's actions a perception problem:
“Fighting Words” – Oy, Canada: Bute-Andrade Controversy - Boxing News

3 things wrong with that fight and all stem from the ref:

1. The extraordinary amount of clinching going on and the lack of the ref warning about it. He warned Bute 2 times in the 11th and stated he would take a point but didn't.
2. The slow count after the knockdown. It bought Bute time and ate up precious seconds.
3. The ref's zeal at getting Andrade back into a neutral corner. I've seen in many fights after a knockdown where a fighter walks around to that degree. What Andrade did was not extraordinary and given the circumstances it wasn't a big deal.

That being said, I thought Bute put on a spectacular performance when he actually boxed, showing power and speed and I would like to see him a second time (without all the clinching). He had nowhere near the poise of Mikkel Kessler who fought pretty much the same fight except Kessler didn't tire out.

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

A few points:

- Interesting fact: Marlon B. Wright, the referee for the fight, is a personal friend of Howard Grant's (Montreal native), Andrade's trainer.

- The fight result is very controversial in Montreal. On Montreal Talk Radio, a majority of listeners say Andrade was robbed. A caller said it was the most egregious boxing outcome he ever saw.

- A boxer must go to the neutral corner when his opponent is on the ground as result of a punch. He told Andrade to go to the neutral corner three times.

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Controversy or not:

- the referree respected the neutral corner rule
- Bute would have gotten up in any event
- Bute completly dominated the fight
- The only reason Bute went down was because he wanted the give the crowd a show in the 12th, but he did get back up
- Bute would probably win against Andrade again
- Calling the Montreal boxing scene corrupt is laughable (again, Marlon B. Wright is a personal friend of Howard Grant's and he could actually have been more severe towards Andrade (elbows etc.)

[quote=montsegur1234;623190]

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

Controversy or not:

- The only reason Bute went down was because he wanted the give the crowd a show in the 12th, but he did get back up

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You have to love conjecture presented as fact--

montsegur1234, you're truly an idiot. Bute went down because he got KTFO.

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[quote=hfahrenheit;623196]

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

Controversy or not:

- The only reason Bute went down was because he wanted the give the crowd a show in the 12th, but he did get back up

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You have to love conjecture presented as fact--

montsegur1234, you're truly an idiot. Bute went down because he got KTFO.

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No he is right Bute did exchange punches in the 12th round to give the crowd a show, he almost payed for it. It was a good learning experience for him that you never have the fight in the bag until all 12 rounds have been completed.

[quote=ICB;623204]

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

You have to love conjecture presented as fact--

montsegur1234, you're truly an idiot. Bute went down because he got KTFO.

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No he is right Bute did exchange punches in the 12th round to give the crowd a show, he almost payed for it. It was a good learning experience for him that you never have the fight in the bag until all 12 rounds have been completed.

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No, you're saying what he should have: "he exchanged punches in the 12th to give the crowd a show."

He said "he went down just to give the crowd a show..." -he's attempting to diminish the knock down.

And, I disagree with you both with your usage of the word ALMOST... he traded punches and got put on the canvas. That's paying for it; there's no almost about it.

[quote=hfahrenheit;623208]

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

No he is right Bute did exchange punches in the 12th round to give the crowd a show, he almost payed for it. It was a good learning experience for him that you never have the fight in the bag until all 12 rounds have been completed.

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No, you're saying what he should have: "he exchanged punches in the 12th to give the crowd a show."

He said "he went down just to give the crowd a show..." -he's attempting to diminish the knock down.

And, I disagree with you both with your usage of the word ALMOST... he traded punches and got put on the canvas. That's paying for it; there's no almost about it.

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Ahh my bad i did misread that i agree with you on that is indeed ridiculous, but i disagree with you that Bute deserved to lose. The timer in the round was up so regardless of the ref. Ridiculously telling off Andrade about not being in the neutral corner is irrelvant. Because Andrade wouldn't have got another chance to finish Bute.

The only thing that should be controversial with hindsight, is whether or not the ref should of let Bute finish the fight. Bute did get up at the count 8, he looked at his corner twice so he was still aware, and he responded to the ref.

No rules were actually broken although the ref did clearly use the rules to his advantage, but if Andrade would of been given the fight with no time left in the round. I think that would of been a traversity IMO, it would be Julio Cesar Chavez vs Meldrick Taylor all over again.

[quote=hfahrenheit;623196]

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

Controversy or not:

- The only reason Bute went down was because he wanted the give the crowd a show in the 12th, but he did get back up

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You have to love conjecture presented as fact--

montsegur1234, you're truly an idiot. Bute went down because he got KTFO.

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No need to insult me. I don't think the context of a boxing forum warrants such exegesis of a banal comment.
And if you want to have a discussion on the epistemology of causality, let me know.

[quote=ICB;623211]

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

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Originally Posted by ICB

No, you're saying what he should have: "he exchanged punches in the 12th to give the crowd a show."

He said "he went down just to give the crowd a show..." -he's attempting to diminish the knock down.

And, I disagree with you both with your usage of the word ALMOST... he traded punches and got put on the canvas. That's paying for it; there's no almost about it.

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Ahh my bad i did misread that i agree with you on that is indeed ridiculous, but i disagree with you that Bute deserved to lose. The timer in the round was up so regardless of the ref. Ridiculously telling off Andrade about not being in the neutral corner is irrelvant. Because Andrade wouldn't have got another chance to finish Bute.

The only thing that should be controversial with hindsight, is whether or not the ref should of let Bute finish the fight. Bute did get up at the count 8, he looked at his corner twice so he was still aware, and he responded to the ref.

No rules were actually broken although the ref did clearly use the rules to his advantage, but if Andrade would of been given the fight with no time left in the round. I think that would of been a traversity IMO, it would be Julio Cesar Chavez vs Meldrick Taylor all over again.

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Hey guys,

Of course I meant that Bute could have averted the risk of being knocked out with more disciplined boxing in the 12th. But he was indeed knocked out. However, I understand how my comment could have been interpreted differently. But people must say a lot of outlandish stuff on this forum for you guys to think this lol.

All I am saying is that Bute would have won the fight in any event.
It would have been another story altogether if the knockout had occurred 1 min before.

Part of me actually feels sorry for marlon

Biggest fight of his career and real chance to shine and he totally choked under the pressure of a big moment.

Andrade has every right to feel robbed, had the ref of done his proper job bute would of got the standing 8 with a good 10 seconds left and marlon would of had to stop the contest as he was clearly out.

But lets not forget bute had won 8 of the previous 11 rounds and but for a lapse in concentration late on was the better man on the night.

Me thinks a rematch is in order!!!!!!!!!!

[quote=hfahrenheit;623208]

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

No he is right Bute did exchange punches in the 12th round to give the crowd a show, he almost payed for it. It was a good learning experience for him that you never have the fight in the bag until all 12 rounds have been completed.

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No, you're saying what he should have: "he exchanged punches in the 12th to give the crowd a show."

He said "he went down just to give the crowd a show..." -he's attempting to diminish the knock down.

And, I disagree with you both with your usage of the word ALMOST... he traded punches and got put on the canvas. That's paying for it; there's no almost about it.

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I am not diminishing the knock down. He just shouldn't have put himself in the position of trading punches in the 12th round of a fight in which he completely dominated. I am looking forward to the rematch; notwithstanding the controversy, it was a great fight.

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

Part of me actually feels sorry for marlon

Biggest fight of his career and real chance to shine and he totally choked under the pressure of a big moment.

Andrade has every right to feel robbed, had the ref of done his proper job bute would of got the standing 8 with a good 10 seconds left and marlon would of had to stop the contest as he was clearly out.

But lets not forget bute had won 8 of the previous 11 rounds and but for a lapse in concentration late on was the better man on the night.

Me thinks a rematch is in order!!!!!!!!!!

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This was a lose-lose freak situation for Wright. He has always been a very meticulous referree and it's really a shame.
He applied the neutral corner rule yet there is controversy for overzealous application of the rules.
If he hadn't applied the neutral corner rule, there would have been a controversy as well.
And imagine if he had declared Bute unfit to pursue with 5 seconds left. Bute dominated the fight. He called it right.

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

Part of me actually feels sorry for marlon

Biggest fight of his career and real chance to shine and he totally choked under the pressure of a big moment.

Andrade has every right to feel robbed, had the ref of done his proper job bute would of got the standing 8 with a good 10 seconds left and marlon would of had to stop the contest as he was clearly out.

But lets not forget bute had won 8 of the previous 11 rounds and but for a lapse in concentration late on was the better man on the night.

Me thinks a rematch is in order!!!!!!!!!!

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This was a lose-lose freak situation for Wright. He has always been a very meticulous referree and it's really a shame.
He applied the neutral corner rule yet there is controversy for overzealous application of the rules.
If he hadn't applied the neutral corner rule, there would have been a controversy as well.
And imagine if he had declared Bute unfit to pursue with 5 seconds left. Bute dominated the fight. He called it right.

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Mayorga got stopped when the final bell went and he clearly was in contention to win the fight on points. From the 1st bell to the last it is the refs job to apply the rules all the way through the fight and not make any special dispensations for particular situations.

Andrade was more than far enough away to be considered in his neutral corner and even when he did go right into it wright continued to shout orders at him knowing full well bute was earning the time to drag himself and show the ref his gloves.

Had the situation of been handled correctly bute would of got the standing 8 with a good 6-7seconds left and the ref considering the physical state he was in and that andrade could quite easily of walked up and smashed bute in the head causing severe damage would of had no option but to call the fight off and declare andrade winner via TKO.

How does everyone like my new Andrade avatar? Just fishing for compliments....ahaha.

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

Part of me actually feels sorry for marlon

Biggest fight of his career and real chance to shine and he totally choked under the pressure of a big moment.

Andrade has every right to feel robbed, had the ref of done his proper job bute would of got the standing 8 with a good 10 seconds left and marlon would of had to stop the contest as he was clearly out.

But lets not forget bute had won 8 of the previous 11 rounds and but for a lapse in concentration late on was the better man on the night.

Me thinks a rematch is in order!!!!!!!!!!

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This was a lose-lose freak situation for Wright. He has always been a very meticulous referree and it's really a shame.
He applied the neutral corner rule yet there is controversy for overzealous application of the rules.
If he hadn't applied the neutral corner rule, there would have been a controversy as well.
And imagine if he had declared Bute unfit to pursue with 5 seconds left. Bute dominated the fight. He called it right.

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Mayorga got stopped when the final bell went and he clearly was in contention to win the fight on points. From the 1st bell to the last it is the refs job to apply the rules all the way through the fight and not make any special dispensations for particular situations.

Andrade was more than far enough away to be considered in his neutral corner and even when he did go right into it wright continued to shout orders at him knowing full well bute was earning the time to drag himself and show the ref his gloves.

Had the situation of been handled correctly bute would of got the standing 8 with a good 6-7seconds left and the ref considering the physical state he was in and that andrade could quite easily of walked up and smashed bute in the head causing severe damage would of had no option but to call the fight off and declare andrade winner via TKO.

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A valid point. Yet even if one were to admit your hypothesis, I don't believe that the call would have been so crystal clear. Bottom line, a rematch is in order.
And whether the referee erred or not - I think that valid points can be made for both contentions -, it's a shame that a fight of such quality was tarnished by controversy.

[quote=montsegur1234;623232]

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

You have to love conjecture presented as fact--

montsegur1234, you're truly an idiot. Bute went down because he got KTFO.

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No need to insult me. I don't think the context of a boxing forum warrants such exegesis of a banal comment.
And if you want to have a discussion on the epistemology of causality, let me know.

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Well, montse, I'm glad you found your thesaurus. I wasn't being too critical, you made a lazy statement that in fact insinuated something ridiculous. Ridiculous, not banal. Your statement would have been banal if it had been correctly stated, ergo if you would have said he "traded punches to put on a show" instead of "he went down to put on a show"...

But, that's what you said and you have to own it. Welcome to SaddoBoxing.

but if you misspoke, that's fine, don't worry of it.

Now, if you want to have a discussion about the epistemology of pretension and how it applies to over "wordsmithing" statements, find a different forum.

I Think there were zero seconds left. Bute went down with 2 seconds left, i think.

[quote=hfahrenheit;623324]

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

No need to insult me. I don't think the context of a boxing forum warrants such exegesis of a banal comment.
And if you want to have a discussion on the epistemology of causality, let me know.

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Well, montse, I'm glad you found your thesaurus. I wasn't being too critical, you made a lazy statement that in fact insinuated something ridiculous. Ridiculous, not banal. Your statement would have been banal if it had been correctly stated, ergo if you would have said he "traded punches to put on a show" instead of "he went down to put on a show"...

But, that's what you said and you have to own it. Welcome to SaddoBoxing.

but if you misspoke, that's fine, don't worry of it.

Now, if you want to have a discussion about the epistemology of pretension and how it applies to over "wordsmithing" statements, find a different forum.

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Wordsmithing notably seeks to enhance clarity of content. And I thought "epistemology of causality" to be quite clear. Nothing pretentious about using the obvious and clearest term to make a point. You clearly understood what I meant this time around. Same thing with "exegesis"; it was the best word to make another point. And again, you knew exactly what I meant.

As for banal, the content in question was indeed quite banal. It was so banal that I chose to take a shortcut in causality. I wrote:

"The only reason Bute went down was because he wanted the (sic) give the crowd a show in the 12th, but he did get back up"

I chose not to underline that the last causalistic element in the equation was Andrade punching Bute in such a manner that it led Bute to fall to the ground. In other words, I wanted to avoid a tautology for rhetorical purposes. However, this excess manifestly led to a misinterpretation of my point.

Good one on epistemology of pretension lol and I agree, let's get back to discussing boxing. It's all good, I'll try to be sharp as best I can be.

The recent verbal masturbation in this thread is nauseating.

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Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer

I Think there were zero seconds left. Bute went down with 2 seconds left, i think.

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It seems like it was between 2 or 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by CFH

The recent verbal masturbation in this thread is nauseating.

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Hey dude, I wasn't being serious at all. Sorry for the annoyance.

[quote=montsegur1234;623358]

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Originally Posted by hfahrenheit

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Originally Posted by montsegur1234

Well, montse, I'm glad you found your thesaurus. I wasn't being too critical, you made a lazy statement that in fact insinuated something ridiculous. Ridiculous, not banal. Your statement would have been banal if it had been correctly stated, ergo if you would have said he "traded punches to put on a show" instead of "he went down to put on a show"...

But, that's what you said and you have to own it. Welcome to SaddoBoxing.

but if you misspoke, that's fine, don't worry of it.

Now, if you want to have a discussion about the epistemology of pretension and how it applies to over "wordsmithing" statements, find a different forum.

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...However, this excess manifestly led to a misinterpretation of my point...

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My bad; guess I missed the "blatant" sarcasm...

Analysis of the fight, could be of interest:

“Fighting Words” – Oy, Canada: Bute-Andrade Controversy

Blame Canada! Wright was Wrong, Andrade's corner should of lit him up some more. Bute was out cold.

Andrade didn't want to remain in the neutral corner because his only shot at punching Bute again was to start fighting from the middle of the ring.
Bute was in no danger as there were only two seconds left in the round and Andrade didn't have time to reach him from the neutral corner. Not only did the referee actually get it right but Bute would have won under any scenario.