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To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
Bilbo you are delusional. And I doubt you've ever had to make a weight and then do physical activity in your life.
Why would manny insist on these catch weights rather than fighting these guys at their optimum weight. It's a no brainer.
do you think that mannys welterweight and light middleweight titles are as legitamate as others who havent made any changes to the weight requirements?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell I would answer no emphatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.
Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!
Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.
Cotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Great question and the answer is manny shouldn't even have those titles. What next? winning the heavyweight title against a blown up flyweight in 153 pound catchweight fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44do you think that mannys welterweight and light middleweight titles are as legitamate as others who havent made any changes to the weight requirements?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell I would answer no emphatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.
Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!
Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44do you think that mannys welterweight and light middleweight titles are as legitamate as others who havent made any changes to the weight requirements?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell I would answer no emphatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
ok
the discussion we are having is not around who has bent what rules
the title of the thread is - Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st
so the question could be - Are the demands pacquiao making on his opponents affecting they're performances on fight night?
another way of asking the question could be - By all means make a catchweight, but is it fair when a fighter with a bigger name in boxing is getting a bigger advantage from the catchweight?
First up the Oscar fight. This wasn't Manny being the bad guy, it was Oscar! Oscar was the big star wanting to drag up the exciting Manny three weight divisions from superfeatherweight to beat him up at welterweight. Oscar had seen Sugar Shane comfortably move back down from 154 to 147 and figured it would be a nice easy way to earn shit loads of cash. And virtually everybody agreed with him. Manny was a huge underdog and any prefight complaints were aimed at Oscar for taking on such a little guy. Ok Oscar looked fucking awful on the night, but he had nobody else to blame. He himself was guilty of dragging down a much bigger man in B Hop from 160 to 156 to fight for his world title. And he got knocked out in this case also.
Second Cotto. Cotto represented the first time Manny was fighting a genuine welterweight, again a much bigger man and a real test for Manny. They agreed to a catchweight of 145 lbs, incidently the same limit that Marquez got Floyd to agree to, although he broke that contract by weighing 147 anyway. Cotto did not have to lose much extra weight at all. In fact he voluntarily had come in at 146 dead for his last fight against Clottey. So Cotto lost a single pound to fight Manny, that's it, one single pound. After this fight Manny felt established at 147 and thus fought Josh Clottey at the full 147 limit. This is the same Josh Clottey who brutalised Diego Coralles remember. Coralles only moved up from lightweight. Manny from flyweight!!!!!!!
Finally Margarito. This isn't even an argument imo. Margarito was a career welterweight who weighed in at under 146 lbs for his fight against Sugar Shane. Here he weighed in over 4lbs heavier. Where was the hardship there? It wouldn't be suprising if Margarito is to come back down to 147 at some point if the fight he wants is there. Being weight drained had nothing to do with it. As I said many times, Manny just wanted a fairer fight, and didn't want Margarito to be able to weigh in excess of 170lbs on fight night. As it was, he weighed 'only' 165.
I don't personally care less about belts. Most of the belts are completely devalued and have a nobody as the title holder.
But do I think having Manny Pacquaio as a world champ at 154 is more credible than the Contender club fighter K9 Bundrage, who currently holds the IBF strap, or Jan Zevek that well known welterweight champ, then absolutely I do.
The other fighters may not have won their belts at a catchweight, but they oftentimes just picked them up out of a garbage bin or had to fight another journeyman to 'win' it. At least Manny is fighting legit, established, world class championship caliber fighters.
I'd always rather a guy like Manny is given a belt over the likes of Zavek, Bundrage, Drews, N'Dou, Valuev. Rees etc. Those guys being world champs is far more a knock to the sport than the most exciting and explosive fighter of our era having a strap despite his opponent conceding the right to weigh a 1lb more.
Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerCotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
I liked the quote used by YB the other day. You know you've made it when you got haters.
Almost no one said anything about the other catchweights that were fought, besides 1 or 2 at the most.
Oscar-Hopkins at 156? Hardly a moan
Chavez-Whitaker at 145? Hardly a moan.
Leonard-Lalonde at 168? Hardly a moan.
Hopkins-wright and Pavlik at 170? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Pavlik at 166? Hardly a moan.
Taylor-Norris at 150? Hardly a moan.
Williams-Marinez at 158? hardly a moan.
But with Pacquiao it's a problem and considered to be breaking the rules of boxing.
ANd if the guys think it's unfair to come down in weight. Then don't sign the contract. No one forced them to. And if they did complain, then take responsibility for accepting the terms.
BTW no one forced Oscar to fight Manny, it was Oscar that wanted to fight a guy that just jumped 3 divisions within a year and was only taking 32% of the fight purse and ppv money. Oscar was never forced to do anything in his boxing career. He was always the A side of the draw and had the upper hand in negotiations. And that includes his fight with Manny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerCotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear a excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
Cuz manny put the deal on the table. Instead of challenge Oscar at 154 like mayweather did he said 'no it's gotta be 147.' Instead of challenge cotto at 147 like all of cotto's previous opponants have he said no it's gotta be 145 (even though he fought oscar and clottey at 147) Instead of fight Margarito at 154 which is the light middleweight limit that that title should be fought at. 154 the weight that margarito went up to fight daniel santos at.
Pacquiao and his demands. His opponants are daft for bowing to them.... But all they're thinking is pay day.
In those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
I think in all of those fights the favourite won. Having watched many of them I don't see that weight drain was a factor in any of the fights I saw. You presumably disagree?Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerIn those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Manny was a superfeatherweight when they started negotioting this. Oscar was a junior middleweight. It's amazin how you are going back to retrospectively make it look like Manny was picking on poor Oscar.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerQuote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerCotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear a excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
Cuz manny put the deal on the table. Instead of challenge Oscar at 154 like mayweather did he said 'no it's gotta be 147.' Instead of challenge cotto at 147 like all of cotto's previous opponants have he said no it's gotta be 145 (even though he fought oscar and clottey at 147) Instead of fight Margarito at 154 which is the light middleweight limit that that title should be fought at. 154 the weight that margarito went up to fight daniel santos at.
Pacquiao and his demands. His opponants are daft for bowing to them.... But all they're thinking is pay day.
In a way it's a huge backhanded compliment as to how good you think Manny must be.
It's hard to believe manny "forced" oscar to go to 147 while oscar held all the cards back then. As for cotto, do you honestly believe cotto drained himself to make 145 when just several months prior to that he went up against clottey at 146? The cotto/clottey fight was at 147 and he didn't even reach that limit. What makes you think he drained himself to go at 145? As for margarito, aside from his previous fight with Garcia, he's been fighting at the ww limit and he's been pretty much comfortable at that weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerQuote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerCotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear a excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
Cuz manny put the deal on the table. Instead of challenge Oscar at 154 like mayweather did he said 'no it's gotta be 147.' Instead of challenge cotto at 147 like all of cotto's previous opponants have he said no it's gotta be 145 (even though he fought oscar and clottey at 147) Instead of fight Margarito at 154 which is the light middleweight limit that that title should be fought at. 154 the weight that margarito went up to fight daniel santos at.
Pacquiao and his demands. His opponants are daft for bowing to them.... But all they're thinking is pay day.
I think it all boils down to whether manny deserved the belts he got from cotto and margo. But in terms of the catchweight being an issue in the actual fight, who's to say it's why they lost? Didn't you just say they underestimated manny and overestimated their own potential? Hardly manny's fault. I see it as an equalizer to the weight advantage they had come fight night.
When Williams made Martinez fight at 158, I personally brought up in threads, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall you ever getting on Williams' case about it. Williams was the favorite going into that fight too if only by a hair. He made Martinez come down in weight because they thought Martinez was more effective at 160. The point was to fight him at a weight where he wasn't as effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerIn those fights listed how many of the guys coming DOWN to the weight lost?Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Did you give Mayweather grief for signing to fight Marquez at 145 (at a catchweight) and then showing up weighing 147?
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26It's hard to believe manny "forced" oscar to go to 147 while oscar held all the cards back then. As for cotto, do you honestly believe cotto drained himself to make 145 when just several months prior to that he went up against clottey at 146? The cotto/clottey fight was at 147 and he didn't even reach that limit. What makes you think he drained himself to go at 145? As for margarito, aside from his previous fight with Garcia, he's been fighting at the ww limit and he's been pretty much comfortable at that weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerQuote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26Why would you blame it on manny when it was cotto, margarito and oscar who had their assessments/estimates on their effectiveness wrong on the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerCotto, margarito and oscar, underestimated Pacquiao and overestimated how effective and capable they'd be getting down to that weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcanum26To even the playing field? If his opponents (cotto/margarito?) thought they had a good chance of winning against manny at their respective catchweight fights then sign the contract, why would you blame it all on manny? It affects his opponents but you can't quantify it in absolute terms the way you can't say how much an advantage they would have against manny come fight night after they rehydrate themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
If pacquiao doesn't think it's an even playing feild to go up the weight catagories, you know what? DON'T GO UP TO THE FUCKING WEIGHT CLASS.
If you don't think it's fair for you to go up to 147 or 154. Don't fight a 147 or 154 guy! SIMPLE!
Also why are you so intent on blaming it all on manny when you didn't hear a excuses from cotto/margarito about the catchweight matter after their losses? I know you'll say it's because of a big payday but I'm absolutely sure they thought they had a chance to win and were grateful for that chance. It's just that as you said they underestimated manny and overestimated their effectiveness. And that fault does not lie on manny.
Cuz manny put the deal on the table. Instead of challenge Oscar at 154 like mayweather did he said 'no it's gotta be 147.' Instead of challenge cotto at 147 like all of cotto's previous opponants have he said no it's gotta be 145 (even though he fought oscar and clottey at 147) Instead of fight Margarito at 154 which is the light middleweight limit that that title should be fought at. 154 the weight that margarito went up to fight daniel santos at.
Pacquiao and his demands. His opponants are daft for bowing to them.... But all they're thinking is pay day.
I think it all boils down to whether manny deserved the belts he got from cotto and margo. But in terms of the catchweight being an issue in the actual fight, who's to say it's why they lost? Didn't you just say they underestimated manny and overestimated their own potential? Hardly manny's fault. I see it as an equalizer to the weight advantage they had come fight night.