I'm not "more negative" about Tyson, I'm pragmatic about him. But hey you must feel horrible because he demolished Bruno twiceQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
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I'm not "more negative" about Tyson, I'm pragmatic about him. But hey you must feel horrible because he demolished Bruno twiceQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
every fighter has his bogey man, nowt you can do about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI'm not "more negative" about Tyson, I'm pragmatic about him. But hey you must feel horrible because he demolished Bruno twiceQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
and youre about as pragmatic as a conker
ummmm what?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44every fighter has his bogey man, nowt you can do about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI'm not "more negative" about Tyson, I'm pragmatic about him. But hey you must feel horrible because he demolished Bruno twiceQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
and youre about as pragmatic as a conker
I think a lot of Tyson's opponents are criminally underrated, best example is Tony TNT Tucker who was an absolute beast. Huge power and amazing boxing skills. Tyson was the only guy to beat him until he was 35 or so, when he lost to a young Lennox Lewis.
Who the fuck did Gene Tunney beat besides Dempsey himself? Greb, a middleweight? Who also beat him? Sheeesh, these old timers get a free pass on everything.
conkerQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabongummmm what?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44every fighter has his bogey man, nowt you can do about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI'm not "more negative" about Tyson, I'm pragmatic about him. But hey you must feel horrible because he demolished Bruno twiceQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
and youre about as pragmatic as a conker
And that is?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
conkers arent very pragmaticQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongAnd that is?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
ApparentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44conkers arent very pragmaticQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongAnd that is?Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
No only just getting warmed up. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
I've got plenty of gasoline left to throw on the fire if need be! ;D
We haven't even discussed prime Tyson vs prime Larry Holmes yet!!
Greb, Dempsey, Carpintier, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons, Battling Levinsky....Tunney fought some good competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Not as a heavyweight champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGreb, Dempsey, Carpintier, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons, Battling Levinsky....Tunney fought some good competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
That's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterNot as a heavyweight champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGreb, Dempsey, Carpintier, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons, Battling Levinsky....Tunney fought some good competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He was good for his time, but that was the stone age of boxing. It's like comparing an AR-15 to a musket.
Can you imagine transplanting a guy like Tony Tucker back then to fight all those undersized, scared white boys?
He probably would not be allowed to fight them because of his colour and then size. Although I would not mind seeing a raw Dempsey try that fought Willard or even Firpo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
If he wouldn't get in there with Harry Wills I doubt he'd feel good about taking on one of the more modern black giants.
I figure if a guy like Frank Bruno was around back then (and the size he was), a lot of those white boxers would have looked for another line of work!
Frank Bruno got as big as he did due to advances in training and most importantly Healthcare. Back in Tunney's day women still drank & smoked and did God knows what else while with child....so yeah IF IF IF all you like but I don't see anyone with a time machine around hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Tunney was a Lightheavyweight....the fuck dude?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterNot as a heavyweight champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGreb, Dempsey, Carpintier, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons, Battling Levinsky....Tunney fought some good competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Nonsense. Currently, there's not a single black american Heavyweight of note in the world-sport of Boxing even though there's about maybe 20 million black american men.
These non-black fighters of the teens and 20s came from poverty and rough backgrounds. It ain't a fighter's color that makes for a fighter...
That and back then you couldn't get paid shit for playing basketball or football it was boxing and baseball in the 1920's & 30's and that was itQuote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
The irony of a thread called Lets end the Mike Tyson debate, yet it has lasted for 18 pages.
....so farQuote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
I just say that Tyson was not the smartest fighter in the world because he could not adapt Lewis and Holyfeild could do it. As for Bean the 90's is the other era beside the 70's and Tyson got his ass kick by the top of that era that is the reason i cant put him high in the top ten. As for him beating Holyfeild what a joke he got his ass kick by a Holyfeild with heart problems, older and more battle worn, and also had hep b. Holyfeild was a 20 to 1 underdog and he kick his ass like he owed him some money or something. Tyson is just what ifs Holyfeild, Lewis and Ali didn't need the what if they did.
Gene was also heavyweight champion, and that is what I am comparing his record too.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongTunney was a Lightheavyweight....the fuck dude?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterNot as a heavyweight champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongGreb, Dempsey, Carpintier, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons, Battling Levinsky....Tunney fought some good competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
That's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Black people are more athletically gifted than white people ON AVERAGE.
If you're going to shit on Mike Tyson for not being able to adjust to Lennox at that point in his career, then go ahead and shit on Muhammad Ali for not being able to adjust to Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick, shit on Ray Robinson for not being able to adjust to Joey Archer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
It would be interesting what the 1920's make of Tyson Fury.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThat's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Black people are more athletically gifted than white people ON AVERAGE.
Just read some post about Tyson KO's not being impressive.
All big time fighters have many hand picked oppenents. Thats not to say they don't take on and overcome their biggest challenges. And thats also not to say Tyson himself conquered any of his biggest challenges. But to say its not impressive to KO 23 or more professional heavy wieght boxers in the first round isnt impressive is crazy. Alot of them top 10 at the time.
I doubt any other fighter has KO'd 20 opponents in the first round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThat's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Black people are more athletically gifted than white people ON AVERAGE.
What? Tell me you still don't believe that sht. That sht was used for marketing purposes way back in the day.
Yeah sure there are still a majority of African American pro athletes in football and basketball, but the NBA and NFL union, who basically run the NBA and NFL, are all founded by Africans Americans.
Trust me there is no difference outside of marketing.
Not certain but so far im with the Chinese on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThat's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Black people are more athletically gifted than white people ON AVERAGE.
What? Tell me you still don't believe that sht. That sht was used for marketing purposes way back in the day.
Yeah sure there are still a majority of African American pro athletes in football and basketball, but the NBA and NFL union, who basically run the NBA and NFL, are all founded by Africans Americans.
Trust me there is no difference outside of marketing.
Race and sports - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bean both Holyfeild and Lewis were able to carry one way longer and after there primes. I am just saying Tyson burnt out and could not carry on or better himself when other greats have been able to . The guys you mention were old as dust by the time they were losing badly not a good comparison.
Tyson was the type of fighter that was going to have a short prime, like Fraiser or Rocky they burn out. At his best he was better than Holyfield and Lewis could ever be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTyson was the type of fighter that was going to have a short prime, like Fraiser or Rocky they burn out. At his best he was better than Holyfield and Lewis could ever be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Tyson never really took a lot of damage tho. What did him I more than anything was prison time.
He looked like shit after he got out. And honestly imo the best he looked after prison was the second Holyfield fight which of course sadly ended early.
And lets be fair to Tyson, Holyfield was head butting the crap out of him. I remember a lot of people on here praising Floyd for sucker punching Ortiz because Ortiz was head butting him. Cant praise one fighter for not putting up with it and then trash another fighter.
And to say Tyson was afraid to lose and just wanted an exuse is bs. Look at Tyson in Holyfield vs Tyson 1 and look at the shape Tyson is in for Holyfield Tyson 2 and tell me Tyson didn't want that fight bad.
Tyson is just a crazy dumbass who screwed himself over.
Not to mention Holyfield was likely on juice.
Truthfully Tyson was deteriorating after Rooney left. His life was falling a part with Givens and King taking advantage. Prison may have extended his career.
I just cannot see a fighter intentionally crank arms among other things and go out of my way to 'be fair to him'. Tyson had much more to worry about than Holyfields head and he could not cope. Instead of removing a guy from his sences in one of the few sports where its encouraged and he was world renound for it...he choked..he was out fought and he went off the deep end in a desperate hope of getting Holyfield out of his game. I was never one to say he went 'insane' like was often repeated...he knew exactly what he was doing, both times.Quote:
Originally Posted by cambay411Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterTyson was the type of fighter that was going to have a short prime, like Fraiser or Rocky they burn out. At his best he was better than Holyfield and Lewis could ever be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Tyson never really took a lot of damage tho. What did him I more than anything was prison time.
He looked like shit after he got out. And honestly imo the best he looked after prison was the second Holyfield fight which of course sadly ended early.
And lets be fair to Tyson, Holyfield was head butting the crap out of him. I remember a lot of people on here praising Floyd for sucker punching Ortiz because Ortiz was head butting him. Cant praise one fighter for not putting up with it and then trash another fighter.
And to say Tyson was afraid to lose and just wanted an exuse is bs. Look at Tyson in Holyfield vs Tyson 1 and look at the shape Tyson is in for Holyfield Tyson 2 and tell me Tyson didn't want that fight bad.
Tyson is just a crazy dumbass who screwed himself over.
Not to mention Holyfield was likely on juice.
Master in Tyson prime he could not prove he was better then Holyfeild or Lewis because he fought a lot of cans to be honest. I know hes your favorite fighter but in prime he lost to fucking Douglas. Yea he may of under trained but its no excuse he lost to a fighter he was a 40 1 favorite to win. As for the second Holyfeild fight Tyson was losing and looked for a way out he was mental weak fighter. Also for the juice thing been over it did Holyfeild test for it before or after the fight if not well shit he broke no rules. Tyson never fought a caliber of a Holyfeild or Lewis in his so called prime not even close to them in skill. Saying that master how can you say he was way better in prime when he beat jack shit really compared to Holyfeild, Lewis, Ali, and Foreman. I just don't understand the reasoning most other fighters who lost there big fights don't get amped as much not even close to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
All big time boxers are fed fighters. Of course some like Holyfield have also taken, fought and conquered the big challenges.
But Tyson had 44 KO's, 23 or more in the first round. You cant just say "well it was against lower caliber fighters". All big time fighters have fought just as many lower caliber fighters and none have over 20 first round KO's.
Tyson was a killer. Albiet a mentally weak killer who was his own worste enemy.
Has for the second Holyfield fight, maybe he did just want a way out. The only one who truly knows is Tyson. But imo, the look in his eyes, combined with the shape he was in, he looked like a Tyson we had yet seen. And it was a shame what he did. That fight wasn't being dominated by Holyfield. He was winning yes but Tyson was also starting to land.
And as far as prison prolonging Tyson's career, it could have if he was smart. But he was not even close to being the same Tyson when he got out. We didn't see anything close to prime Tyson until Holyfield 2. Then after that he went down hill again.
I do not want to compare Mike to anyone at this point because it's been done to death but I will mention this as I have pointed out in the past, Mike was a high energy fighter and to delve even further these types need inspiration and once this inspiration is gone so is their skill level so Rooney on the plus side and Robbing Givens on the minus side and neither of them met in the middle.
I wish Tyson did fight Holyfield back in 1989 when both had quick wins against Williams and Rodriguez.