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" Juan Diaz....:confused: Wins over Freitas and Julio Diaz don't make you P4P. Cotto had to beat Judah,Mosley,and 3 unbeaten future world champs(Torres,Paulie and QUintana) to get into P4P lists. Diaz is nowhere near that."
Posted this yesterday in the P4P thread. Some of us were rather premature in making Diaz a P4P.;) Listen to El Gamo next time. I asked why and no-one gave a response. I feel fully indicated now.:)
He is off my list now. I guess he's been doing a lot more school work than boxing practice.
There was one moment in that fight that reminded me of Victor Borgus against Darch. JD was taking too much head punishment in mid and late rounds.
I agree 100%. I never liked Juan Diaz. I can't believe people had him on there p4p list
Dam right my man. Listen,Diaz is exciting,has huge potential but for people to say he was P4P after 2 decent wins was absurd in the least. Reminds me of when people had Vic Darchinyan on their P4P lists and when asked for a reason:oh he's unbeaten and exciting.:confused::nono: :-XQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I think the promotional disputes,constantly pulling out of fights and studying all got to Diaz. He can still be successful but he needs to set his priorities straight,you can't be a world class boxer and a top student both at the same time.Good fighter?Yes. P4p?absolutely not.
Well hind sight is 20/20 and I'm sure alot of people will get on this thread and say I knew it or I told you so but I stand by my decision of puting him on the list. I think I had him 10th IIRC.
He didn't only have 2 good fights it's just that he was not well known before that. He had I think like 7 or 8 title defenses and three World Titles. He had more reason to be there than guys like Pavlik for example which was on many people's list. Yes Pavlik has had good wins but he has yet to defend his title once. Give the man some time.
Baby Bull don't have the power to catch many people's attention but he is still a good fighter.
To be honest I am shocked that he lost. Have not seen the fight yet but from what I read, it seems that the cut on his eye might've affected him. Am I right on this????
Hind sight is used by many but I think I used it appropriately here. Diaz was on lists when Calderon wasn't?That was a common occurence.I've known of Diaz,nothing to do with that,facts are facts:his 2 biggest wins are Julio Diaz and Freitas. That's not P4P top 10.He was top 15-20,no way top 10.
And with regards to Kelly,KTFO Panter and Zertuche were equal to Freitas and Julio Diaz wins,2 wins over JT elevated him beyond that.
Also looks like he packs big lunches ..........Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft
I wasn't shocked by this. I said that Juan Diaz would get exposed soon and that Nate had a chance to do it. I was suprised by the SD. It should have been UD. We have seen lots of stupid judges this weekend. At the least the Campbell still got the W.
I had Juan Diaz in my P4P list and i don't see there was anything wrong with it, Acelino Freitas, Julio Diaz, were very good wins and IMO Diaz rightfully deserved to be in the top 10 P4P. Obviously he is out of my P4P list now but im not writing him off i think he will beat Campbell in a rematch and get back to dominating Lightweight division, not to make excuses but i think the head butt early on that caused the cut was a big disadvantage for Diaz, he had never dealt with anything like that before but he passed with flying colors and was able to last the distance. I think it was a good learning experience for Diaz and he will comeback stronger than ever from this loss you mark my words.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Ice, it wasn't a headbutt that caused the cut, it was a punch ;)
Juan Diaz i want to say that he is a real good boxer but need more to be in that clasification.........:cool:
Cristian Mijares has some good wins.Carlos Quintana has some good wins.They aren't P4P.Like I said before,no-one really put forward a solid case for Juan Diaz to be P4P,it was simply a case of,he's unbeaten,has 2-3 decent wins,why not put him in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And I agree,I think he'll come back but it goes to show putting him in the P4P lists was rather premature. Nate would have beaten him,cut or no cut.Julio couldnt out will and break down Campbell, and that's a HUGE part of his game.And I really don't understand the "he passed with flying colours " part:he lost.He did well to survive.
I'll admit i went on Juan Diaz bandwagon i was very impressed with his two wins over Freitas, Julio Diaz. Maybe i did put him up there a bit premature but im not going to lie and say i didn't think he deserved to be there just because he lost. And my opinion of him hasn't changed at all, and what i meant by passed with flying colors, is that Diaz dealt with that adversity of being badly cut and his eye being virtually closed. But yet he kept coming forward and never gave up, Campbell was just superb rolling with Diaz's punches and throwing almost 1200 + punches. I think it was more to do with how great Campbell fought rather than Diaz *being exposed*. I think Diaz's biggest weakness is that he has no power and that cost him tonight. But like i said he will be back stronger than ever and IMO he will beat Campbell in a rematch.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
I'm not so sure about that, Ice. You are usually on point, but you are way off on this one. El Gamo hit it on the head exactly. He beat an old Popo and Julio Diaz isn't that good. He wasn't anywhere near p4p, and honestly, he never will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
I'll add this, JD is not going to develop power if he hasn't already. Ice, you box, so you should know this. If you don't have much defense and you are going to rely on workrate, you better have something on your punches if you are going to beat TOP opposition. People compare Diaz to Hatton, but Hatton has MUCH better one-punch power. Like Hatton, he's steady and relentless. JD isn't explosive. Even when he landed cleanly on Campbell it didn't bother him.
I don't think he beats Campbell in a rematch. He got taken to school and unless Nate get old overnight, the result will be the same.
Oh I totally Sean i'll admit i did jump on Juan Diaz bandwagon and looking back with hindsight i probably did put him too high. But like i said to El Gamo im not going to lie and say i didn't put him up there when i did.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
I never said he would develop power bro in fact i don't have a lot of power either, but i have speed so i rely on timing and speed plus im also taller than most of the guys in my gym so i also use leverage. Diaz actually reminds me of Jesus Chavez they both are similar in height they both have swarming style and they both rely on workrate, plus they both aren't big punchers. The thing i noticed about Diaz is that he doesn't get his body into a shot he mostly throws arm punches and just relies on beating his opponent down with barrage of punishment. I don't think Diaz has been exposed like i said there has always been the big weakness with Diaz that he doesn't have power and being Diaz fan i was always worried about that. Can Campbell repeat a performance like that again though Sean ?? remember the old saying that every fighter always has one good fight left in him, and Campbell certainly proved that point by fighting a tremondous fight. But with his age can he repeat another performance like that ?? i sure hope so because Campbell is excellent to watch.
Ok now we all know what julius rain knew.....he sucks :p
:cool: see you guys, daxx v.d. and me had mention this just a few days ago. The guy sucks ;D
ok maybe he doesn't suck that bad, people just overrated him too soon.;)
P4P :lolhaha:
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Originally Posted by Julius Rain
Juan Diaz doesn't "suck". He was over rated by some but as I said before,he's still young,still can build a great legacy and still would give Manny a tough fight ;)
Rep on me Ice,for being honest and admitting to it and Rozzy Sean for good points although I disagree,I think Juan can still do good things,I jsut don't think he's some kind of monster.
Right. If you don't have great power, you need to have speed, times, reach, skill - you need to be a boxer. You fight with the tools you have. A swarmer with limited power can be very good - Jesus Chavez was very good, but not great. Not p4p. I agree that's a pretty good analogy, Chavez and Diaz. I never thought of Chavez as being a p4p guy, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
That's the real question, Ice....can Nate repeat that performance. He's an old fighter with a lot of miles on him, and it could be last night burned off the last of gas in his tank. If that was Campbell's last good fight, which it might be, JD will have a good chance in the rematch. He may make some improvements, but I don't ever see him as being a p4p. HBO hyped him up a ton, and he's been very well managed. Don't get me wrong, I like Diaz, too, but I don't every see him being a dominating force.
I think it was also due to the fact that Juan Diaz held 3 alphabet belts (and - Ring belt or not - was generally considered the MAN) in one of the most prestigious divisions in boxing. That on paper should be enough to qualify you for p4p consideration, especially given he was undefeated to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Personally I never had him in the top 10 (probably top 20 though), and I agree today's hindsight proves he never belonged there, but to laugh at the very notion of him being p4p seems a bit over the top.
Certainly,he was a top 20 contender,but in the top 10 fighters in the world,based on his record(which is good but not P4P just yet),absolutely not imo and I feel fully vindicated now. I certainly wasn't laughing at the notion but I thought people were getting carried away by the hype,that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_K
Yea. This just proves that belts doesn't mean sh1t that much these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_K
If Baby Bull had a lil more Pop in his punches he will be almost unstoppable because as of now if you can WITHSTAND his barrage and have POWER looks like the kid doesnt have a plan B:-\ I can just imagine if he is up against a fighter who can stick and move with the same handpseed and stamina as him but with more POWER how can he cope?
I'll eat some crow. I thought he was untouchable at 135. I got owned big time !:banllama:
I think he just had an average night and Nate had a good night. Nate is bigger and stronger and more experienced. He really used his head alot, and not totally butting, but more pushing Juan's head where he could hit it. The cut was caused by a punch, but the punch landed because of the butt. Nate was using his head literally to set up punches.
I think his head caused alot of the eye problems, but the body work took Diaz's stamina. Overall the veteran tougher guy won, but it doesn't make Diaz a lesser fighter. He really fought the wrong strategy against Nate and he took a beating for it. He was right in is post fight interview to say that he didn't use his jab, he leaned too much on Nate and Nate was stronger and more crafty on the inside. Campbell fought very rough, used his head alot, but not enough to be penalized. Overall it was a very good fight and props to Campbell for the big win, and props to Diaz for finishing the fight strong cause he looked like he was gonna quit in the 11th.
You've somewhat redeemed yourself here in this post for the other 2....Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
"somewhat.,....."
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Seriously Gamo that is just a moronic statement. How can forcing one of the worlds greatest lightweights of the last decade to quit on his stool and then forcing another reigning world champ to quit on his stool also be only equal to Pavlik beating two fighters who have never held titles and in the case of Zertuche a fighter who wasn't even in the top 10? :confused:
Diaz was borderline p4p top 10 before the Campbell fight.
He got beat up badly by Campbell but he showed heart in going the distance.
You yourself have Calderon and Pavlik in your own p4p lists yet Pavlik could with a different referee to Steve Smoger in his first fight with Taylor have been just another hyped challenger, and there are some people who argued that Cazares beat Ivan Calderon.
I certainly think Diaz was top 10,11,12,13 any spot would have been ok with me as you could make cases for several fighters.
Campbell fought an inspired fight.
Diaz deserved to be on the p4p lists. He was the most consistant winning lightweight while people like Corrales and Castillo and Casamayor were all beating and losing to each other he kept winning while under the radar. He deserved it i would not rank him above casamayor but he deserved to be there. Now that he's lost of course take him off but why werent people saying this prior to the fight ???
i guess he would refrain calling out other fighters and focus on one fight at at time huh? ill quote him coz i think its pretty funny... no offense diaz fans
"manny has just beaten a legendary mexican champion, i think its time for him to step up with a young mexican warrior"
i guess he's stilll drooling for that fight he forgot to focus on this one.. props to nate campbell for talking sh8 and backing it up big time.
I thought Campbell would win by KO. But a dominate victory for Diaz would have given him a good case along with Pavlik, Calderon, & Mijares at knocking on the door to P4P. Before this defeat I regarded Diaz as a top 12 - 15 type guy.
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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft
I think this is unfair. I don't give a sh*t what The Ring sais. Baby Bull was the man at 135. Casa is done and he clearly loss his last fight bad. And I still think Diaz would beat Casa.
Cambell pulled an Ace off his sleave and fought the perfect fight to win. Diaz is still young and this loss might do one of two things. Either he decides to he wants to be a lawyer and leaves boxing or he becomes rededicated to the sport and comes back better than he was.
If I was a fair man I would say go be a lawyer and make some money while being nice and confertable in some leather chair at a big office. But I'm a boxing fan so I'm hoping for the latter option.
agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Hate to burst your bubble but Diaz deserved p4p status and im owas right behind Casamayor in the lightweights if not in some way ahead. You have to remember he held every other belt then the one Casamayor holds and he beat the champions Julio Diaz and acelino freitas and he deserved it. He was almost as close to a unified champ that the lightweight division has had since Mayweather and he deserves credit. Just because you don't hold Julio Diaz or Freitas in the same standards as Mosley doesn't mean he didnt deserve his p4p status.
You can't compare it to Cotto because Diaz beat the champions WHEN they were champs. And you're trying to give Cotto credit for what his opponents did after he beat them(Malignaggi and Quintana) and what they did 7 years before him(Mosley) You can't question Diaz because he beat the champs when they were champs and in the priome of their career while it can be argued that Cotto's opponents prime came after he faced them(Malignaggi and Quintana) or had already passed(Mosley)
So its incomparable. And I'm not saying it to bash you, I'm just saying slow your role :)
Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all.
You know how people take Floyd's career or Roy Jones career and disect it saying that the fighters he fought weren't as good as they would become when they fought them? Nobody really thinks much of Torres and felt like Holt got the short end of the stick. Torres is exciting but thats about it and a lot of people don't even feel like he deserves that title and that it was handed to him. Quintana is getting exposure because he beat Paul Williams whom many considered to be the next best welterweight next to mayweather. Quintana I'll give you as far as Mosley, I think Cotto mainly got there off of the name Shane Mosley for what he had done in the past as far a resume's go, but when you look at it Shane was in his late 30s and past his prime. Cotto has yet to beat a champion in their prime or at their best, unless you want to give him Quintana. But people like to say "oh people picked this guy to beat him so yeah" well people picked Hatton to beat Mayweather and Mayweather gets dissed because of it still so its a skewed logic that fans use to protect fighters they like, and then reverse it to ridicule fighters they don't like. Not that I'm accusing you of that I'm just stating ;)
But back to the point, imo Juan Diaz deserved p4p he had 3 of the belts and was dominating Lightweight with the most consistancy i've seen in years. To throw all that away in light of a loss is kind of premature. Diaz was the -4- best at lightweight behind casamayor(who may or may not have it anymore and based off his last performance you'd have to place Diaz ahead of him)
So give credit where credit is due :)
belts don't mean shyt, the juan p4p myth is a good example. thank you campbell for exposing the truth. if thats so then is campbell top p4p all of sudden? HELL NO!
You read my post right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rain
Diaz wasnt p4p for the belts alone. He was the most consistant impressive and winning lightweight for a time, and the belts were just icing on the cake. HE earned his p4p by dominating the champs in his division and being the most consistant. I only ranked casamayor above him in p4p but after casa's last performance i'd still have cas over him but not by much in terms of accomplishment.
Point is Diaz was dominating the lightweight division and like it or not next to casa was the best in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Honestly I didn't bother to read your whole post. Well yea juan dominate guys he beat. But he only dominated against jolio and freitas in the later rounds. It was a pretty close battle til the later rounds when juan had taken his oppenents spirit. He wasn't dominant for the whole fight, he was just the men standing by the end. So now that campbell has dominated him, where does campbell stand? he has the belt and he dominated juan.
Campbell is good but i wouldnt place him p4p until he goes on the kind of streak diaz did you also remember diaz is only like 24 years old and thats a lot to accomplish even at his age we havent even probably seen this kids prime yet! So why people are counting him out so early after all he's done so far is astonishing to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rain
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Good posting Majesty. It's just absurd to try and retrospectively downgrade Juan Diaz based on his loss at the weekend.
Before the fight I would have had him at either 10, 11 or 12 competing with the likes of Ivan Calderon, Kelly Pavlik, Kessler and Hatton for thos fringe p4p slots.
He was seen as THE man in the lightweight division with an ultra exciting style and had KO'd two of the top men in the division, in fact forcing them to quit.
He's only 24 and was already making his 10th world title defense! He was the reigning WBC, IBF AND WBO world champ which meant he held the most belts of any current fighter.
So my question to Gamo is apart from your superb intuition what led you to deduce he didn't deserve p4p status?
9 straight title defenses, holding three of the 4 title belts and still only 24 IS p4p status.
What makes ma laugh though as if that you will place unproven stars like Christian Mijares who has one single win over a name opponent above him and yet be convinced you were right in your assessment. :rolleyes:
Before the Cambell fight Diaz was either 10 or 11 p4p imo, the case between him and Calderon could go either way.
But he WAS above Mijares, Kessler, possibly Hatton and maybe Pavlik and Marquez as well.
He lost and now drops a few places but he had most definitely earned his status previously.
I don't think Campbell ended his career.
You have got to be kidding..... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbo
Diaz P4P better then Mijares and Marquez.
I can see him above Kess, Hatton.
I even have a tough time typing that he's P4P better then Pavlik.
hitmandonny :rofmaoal:Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny