Jones Jr. at Middleweight, re: ducking

In his prime, I never thought Jones to be a ducker. The most oft-repeated name was Michalczewski, but he didn't seem that exciting and I recall him being unwilling to travel to the US. Personally, I never clamored for a repeat of the Hopkins and Tooney snoozefests.

If you add Hill, the Bodysnatcher, and Ruiz (considering he's a heavyweight) you have some high-level comp there but obviously not near the level such greats like Ali and Leonard had. Jones could've used some more names on his rez.

In retrospect, there seems to be an awful lot of fights in the Middleweight division that never occurred. Was the timing just a tad off, where they ducking Jones, or did Jones duck them? Here's the list:

1. Nigel Benn
2. Chris Eubanks
3. Julian Jackson
4. Gerald Mcclennan

What's the verdict?

I don't really think you can fault anyone for those fights not happening. First off Julian Jackson was basically finished before Jones really came to prominence beating Toney, he lost twice to Mclellan by TKO around then I believe, and didn't fight anyone great after that. Mclellan and Jones were friends, maybe they would've fought each other eventually, maybe not... But either way needless to say that wasn't possible after the G-man fought Benn. As to why he didn't fight Benn or Eubank, I don't think either party wanted to travel, maybe Jones didn't for spite, being so horribly robbed in the Olympics. Benn basically came apart as a fighter after he fought MClellan anyways. Also who knows how much either really wanted to land a fight with Roy Jones. I really doubt either Benn or Eubank would've wanted a fight against him, imo Roy would have easily beaten both.

thanks p4pking, that's interesting. regarding travelling, since i've heard this issue come up a lot, especially regarding british fighters... isn't it customary, for better or for worse, to fight in the US b/c of the money? I don't hear Latin American fighters demanding a hometown advantage, but maybe thats b/c of their economies.

add to that, doesn't one usually come to the champions--or more specifically, the perceived superior or more popular fighter's--country if there's a conflict?

I find it hard to blame Jones for not going overseas. after all, he was the attraction and, i know this will sound a little jingoistic (but its reality), he was American.

None of the Europeans would come over and Fight Roy... One time I believe it was before his fight with Bryant or another supermiddleweight when he was p4p #1 that Roy asked HBO to try and find a fight for him where it was 60-40% in his favor for most cases, and not a single guy from the UK would fight him in the States. Roy never duked anyone... its just these guys weren't willing to come over to get humiliated (like Ricky Hatton) for anything less than a 50/50 split. Benn would never fight Roy, and wouldn't have stood a chance, Eubanks would have foughten Roy for a 50/50 split ,but he didn't deserve it, Collins wouldn't truly consider fighitng Roy, And Calzaghe wasn't willing to fight Roy at 175, in the states, for 60/40 spli in Roy's favor. People will tell you that Roy priced himself out, but he hardly made unreasonable offers, and never offers that were considered totally absurd, the only person who really stood a chance against him either htan Hopkins and Calzaghe was McCellan anyways, and he was done after he fought Benn.

Even with Calzaghe and Hopkins people forget That Roy hit as hard as any middleweight, I say that he could land punches that could match Julian Jackson, he was faster than Leonard(or anyone p4p), He could pot shot like Mayweather, but put combinations together like Sugar Ray Robinson, He was very hard to hit, and he was always in great shape. I could see Calzaghe's persistence, and huge punch numbers to give Roy a little trouble, but his, Roy's, speed and power would overcome the Welshman. Hopkins definitely got better from that first encounter, but Roy was quite a bit better than him at that point and Roy also improved tenfold from his first title fight, and he had a broken hand that fight.

Roy could have fought Michealcezki but just because he did not does not mean that he ducked them. They could have tried fighting him and no one accuses them of avoiding RJJ.

Eubanks had an opportunity to fight RJJ but he was making easy money with weaker opponents and he really lost his "killer" instinct after Watson.

my knowledge on this is small but i'm sure that roy wasn't the one ducking, those fighters or some of them refused to fight him, jones would of beat them all

I dont think that Jones Jr. is ducking , we have to see that he is really focus in fight with the winner of B.H vs Calzaghe , with the best in 170 pnd. and make 1 or 2 big fight with Big Purse , we know that he is going down now , so he going get the best opportunity that present it on him.......thats what i guess........:cool:

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Originally Posted by ds91

my knowledge on this is small but i'm sure that roy wasn't the one ducking, those fighters or some of them refused to fight him, jones would of beat them all

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McClellan beat Roy twice in the ams and many were convinced that he was going to stop roy.
When roy got hit by Tarver he was stopped bad, theres a lot to suggest McClellan could have done the same

^Yeah but you're talking about a Roy Jones 15 years or so into his career when he got stopped. The Roy of the mid to late 90s was much harder to tag.

I dont give any of those guys mentioned much of a chance. As impressive as McClellan was, I think Roy's speed and new size would have given him fits (lets remember, they were both kids when G-Man beat him).

Even Eubank said in an interview he didn't think he could beat Jones.

Timing beats speed and McClellan had timing in spades.

McClellan had a good enough chin to hang with Jackson twice.
Roy couldn't stop him, sooner or later McClellan would have tagged him.

McClellan had monster power at Middle. I think he would have got the job done

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Timing beats speed and McClellan had timing in spades.

McClellan had a good enough chin to hang with Jackson twice.
Roy couldn't stop him, sooner or later McClellan would have tagged him.

McClellan had monster power at Middle. I think he would have got the job done

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Jones also had amazing power at Middleweight, he did stop Thomas Tate in 2 rounds, the same Tate who went 12 rounds with Julian Jackson. I think people forget how quick and strong Jones was when he was focused. A lot of the time he used to toy with his opponent's. But if someone forced him to fight he destroyed them. McClellan may of had power and a good chin, but he was also a bit reckless and he didn't have a good defense at all he was easy to catch. McClellan wouldn't be able to just swarm Jones throwing punches from all angles being reckless otherwise he would be KO'd simple as that. Im not saying its out of the question than McClellan could KO Jones. But IMO the only thing McClellan has over Jones in attributes is power and a better chin. Other than that Jones beats McClellan pretty much in all the other attributes.

McClellan was also a better textbook boxer than Roy Jones

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

McClellan was also a better textbook boxer than Roy Jones

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Yes but that wouldn't really matter in this case, because McClellan is very aggressive fighter always coming forward. He doesn't really use his boxing skills. His goes on a seek and destroy mission, and Jones would counter McClellan badly.

RJJ would have beaten McClellan if they met. Gerald's only chance was the punch and the prime RJJ could not be caught, he destroyed Marque Sosa who was a big puncher similar to McClellan. Also remember Benn beat him due to him because he did not use his boxing skills and did not have a plan B, if his punches did not have an effect then he was lost.

Benn was interviewed plenty of times after the Mcclellan fight saying he wanted to fight Roy Jones. HE also said his game plan was just to brawl because he knew he had no chance in a pure boxing match. I have no idea why it never came off though.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Timing beats speed and McClellan had timing in spades.

McClellan had a good enough chin to hang with Jackson twice.
Roy couldn't stop him, sooner or later McClellan would have tagged him.

McClellan had monster power at Middle. I think he would have got the job done

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Timing beats speed if the speed doesn't have timing. Toney had both speed and timing, and he only hit Jones a few times with clean shots, same with Hopkins, both Hopkins and Toney were faster than McCellan, both were as good or better than McClellan and both couldn't time Roy, they couldn't land enough flush shots to stop Roy. You talked about the amateurs, but the amateurs are nothing like the pros, and Roy was nothing like he was as a pro. It wasn't McClellan who went to the Olympics in their weightclass, Roy was a lot easier to tag in the amateurs and he was more of a flurry type fighter than a strategic boxer. As for McClellan chin, how long did his fights with Julian Jackson last (combined 6 rounds?) And how many clean shots did Julian land? Roy dropped guys with better chins than McClellan, Merqui Sosa, Malinga, Reggie Johnson, were all guys who had been known for their iron jaws, but Roy hurt and stopped two of them, and he could have stopped Reggie as well if he really wanted to.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

None of the Europeans would come over and Fight Roy... One time I believe it was before his fight with Bryant or another supermiddleweight when he was p4p #1 that Roy asked HBO to try and find a fight for him where it was 60-40% in his favor for most cases, and not a single guy from the UK would fight him in the States. Roy never duked anyone... its just these guys weren't willing to come over to get humiliated (like Ricky Hatton) for anything less than a 50/50 split. Benn would never fight Roy, and wouldn't have stood a chance, Eubanks would have foughten Roy for a 50/50 split ,but he didn't deserve it, Collins wouldn't truly consider fighitng Roy, And Calzaghe wasn't willing to fight Roy at 175, in the states, for 60/40 spli in Roy's favor. People will tell you that Roy priced himself out, but he hardly made unreasonable offers, and never offers that were considered totally absurd, the only person who really stood a chance against him either htan Hopkins and Calzaghe was McCellan anyways, and he was done after he fought Benn.

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Have you got any evidence to back this stuff up?

Or is it just something you're spouting that has been concocted by fans to excuse Roy for not making these fights?

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Timing beats speed and McClellan had timing in spades.

McClellan had a good enough chin to hang with Jackson twice.
Roy couldn't stop him, sooner or later McClellan would have tagged him.

McClellan had monster power at Middle. I think he would have got the job done

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Timing beats speed if the speed doesn't have timing. Toney had both speed and timing, and he only hit Jones a few times with clean shots, same with Hopkins, both Hopkins and Toney were faster than McCellan, both were as good or better than McClellan and both couldn't time Roy, they couldn't land enough flush shots to stop Roy. You talked about the amateurs, but the amateurs are nothing like the pros, and Roy was nothing like he was as a pro. It wasn't McClellan who went to the Olympics in their weightclass, Roy was a lot easier to tag in the amateurs and he was more of a flurry type fighter than a strategic boxer. As for McClellan chin, how long did his fights with Julian Jackson last (combined 6 rounds?) And how many clean shots did Julian land? Roy dropped guys with better chins than McClellan, Merqui Sosa, Malinga, Reggie Johnson, were all guys who had been known for their iron jaws, but Roy hurt and stopped two of them, and he could have stopped Reggie as well if he really wanted to.

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The difference between Toney and hopkins and Gerald was that with Gerald it legitimately only took one.

He alreday had a psychological advantage over Roy and he was continuously improving as a fighter.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Timing beats speed and McClellan had timing in spades.

McClellan had a good enough chin to hang with Jackson twice.
Roy couldn't stop him, sooner or later McClellan would have tagged him.

McClellan had monster power at Middle. I think he would have got the job done

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Timing beats speed if the speed doesn't have timing. Toney had both speed and timing, and he only hit Jones a few times with clean shots, same with Hopkins, both Hopkins and Toney were faster than McCellan, both were as good or better than McClellan and both couldn't time Roy, they couldn't land enough flush shots to stop Roy. You talked about the amateurs, but the amateurs are nothing like the pros, and Roy was nothing like he was as a pro. It wasn't McClellan who went to the Olympics in their weightclass, Roy was a lot easier to tag in the amateurs and he was more of a flurry type fighter than a strategic boxer. As for McClellan chin, how long did his fights with Julian Jackson last (combined 6 rounds?) And how many clean shots did Julian land? Roy dropped guys with better chins than McClellan, Merqui Sosa, Malinga, Reggie Johnson, were all guys who had been known for their iron jaws, but Roy hurt and stopped two of them, and he could have stopped Reggie as well if he really wanted to.

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The difference between Toney and hopkins and Gerald was that with Gerald it legitimately only took one.

He alreday had a psychological advantage over Roy and he was continuously improving as a fighter.

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But you forget Hopkins was also a big puncher back in the day, in fact he has one of the quickest KO's in Middleweight history. You could say with Hopkins that it only took 1 as well back when he was a very aggressive fighter.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Timing beats speed if the speed doesn't have timing. Toney had both speed and timing, and he only hit Jones a few times with clean shots, same with Hopkins, both Hopkins and Toney were faster than McCellan, both were as good or better than McClellan and both couldn't time Roy, they couldn't land enough flush shots to stop Roy. You talked about the amateurs, but the amateurs are nothing like the pros, and Roy was nothing like he was as a pro. It wasn't McClellan who went to the Olympics in their weightclass, Roy was a lot easier to tag in the amateurs and he was more of a flurry type fighter than a strategic boxer. As for McClellan chin, how long did his fights with Julian Jackson last (combined 6 rounds?) And how many clean shots did Julian land? Roy dropped guys with better chins than McClellan, Merqui Sosa, Malinga, Reggie Johnson, were all guys who had been known for their iron jaws, but Roy hurt and stopped two of them, and he could have stopped Reggie as well if he really wanted to.

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The difference between Toney and hopkins and Gerald was that with Gerald it legitimately only took one.

He alreday had a psychological advantage over Roy and he was continuously improving as a fighter.

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But you forget Hopkins was also a big puncher back in the day, in fact he has one of the quickest KO's in Middleweight history. You could say with Hopkins that it only took 1 as well back when he was a very aggressive fighter.

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Hopkins had the reputation of a ferocious frightening deadly puncher that rivaled McClellan, did he?

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Timing beats speed if the speed doesn't have timing. Toney had both speed and timing, and he only hit Jones a few times with clean shots, same with Hopkins, both Hopkins and Toney were faster than McCellan, both were as good or better than McClellan and both couldn't time Roy, they couldn't land enough flush shots to stop Roy. You talked about the amateurs, but the amateurs are nothing like the pros, and Roy was nothing like he was as a pro. It wasn't McClellan who went to the Olympics in their weightclass, Roy was a lot easier to tag in the amateurs and he was more of a flurry type fighter than a strategic boxer. As for McClellan chin, how long did his fights with Julian Jackson last (combined 6 rounds?) And how many clean shots did Julian land? Roy dropped guys with better chins than McClellan, Merqui Sosa, Malinga, Reggie Johnson, were all guys who had been known for their iron jaws, but Roy hurt and stopped two of them, and he could have stopped Reggie as well if he really wanted to.

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The difference between Toney and hopkins and Gerald was that with Gerald it legitimately only took one.

He alreday had a psychological advantage over Roy and he was continuously improving as a fighter.

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But you forget Hopkins was also a big puncher back in the day, in fact he has one of the quickest KO's in Middleweight history. You could say with Hopkins that it only took 1 as well back when he was a very aggressive fighter.

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Hopkins at his aggresive best was an accumulative puncher. He hit hard, but a paralell with McClellan is incorrect

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

The difference between Toney and hopkins and Gerald was that with Gerald it legitimately only took one.

He alreday had a psychological advantage over Roy and he was continuously improving as a fighter.

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But you forget Hopkins was also a big puncher back in the day, in fact he has one of the quickest KO's in Middleweight history. You could say with Hopkins that it only took 1 as well back when he was a very aggressive fighter.

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Hopkins had the reputation of a ferocious frightening deadly puncher that rivaled McClellan, did he?

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Did i say that ?? i said Hopkins had the kind of punch that could set up knockout. If he hit you flush back in those days he most of the time shook his opponent badly which set up the knockout. I never said he was in the league of McClellan's punching power but Hopkins was still a big puncher.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by ICB

But you forget Hopkins was also a big puncher back in the day, in fact he has one of the quickest KO's in Middleweight history. You could say with Hopkins that it only took 1 as well back when he was a very aggressive fighter.

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Hopkins had the reputation of a ferocious frightening deadly puncher that rivaled McClellan, did he?

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Did i say that ?? i said Hopkins had the kind of punch that could set up knockout. If he hit you flush back in those days he most of the time shook his opponent badly which set up the knockout. I never said he was in the league of McClellan's punching power but Hopkins was still a big puncher.

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OK Icey. I thought maybe you knew something no-one else did. Best for your sake to make that clear.. otherwise you look silly. ;)

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Originally Posted by Manju

In his prime, I never thought Jones to be a ducker. The most oft-repeated name was Michalczewski, but he didn't seem that exciting and I recall him being unwilling to travel to the US. Personally, I never clamored for a repeat of the Hopkins and Tooney snoozefests.

If you add Hill, the Bodysnatcher, and Ruiz (considering he's a heavyweight) you have some high-level comp there but obviously not near the level such greats like Ali and Leonard had. Jones could've used some more names on his rez.

In retrospect, there seems to be an awful lot of fights in the Middleweight division that never occurred. Was the timing just a tad off, where they ducking Jones, or did Jones duck them? Here's the list:

1. Nigel Benn
2. Chris Eubanks
3. Julian Jackson
4. Gerald Mcclennan

What's the verdict?

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We can believe that the 4 mentioned above ducked roy or the other way round, i believe its the later, Collins said he was willing to travel to Roy Jones home to ask to fight him if he believed there was any chance roy would take it.

Truth is the MW division was in a transition at that time...guys on their way out...guys already in negotiations with other top fighters..Jones was also only there about 3 or so years legitimatly...even after he won the title he started fighting SMW and only dropped down for one defense...weight was hard to keep...which is why he did not stay at SMW all that long either....

I don't think anyone ducked anyone be it Roy or guys ducking him...all the big names at the time were tough guys who would fight anyone...just bad timing is all...

I still say this to this day and will more then likely until I die...

Take PBF, Ali, even Ray Robinson's skills at their absolute best and IMO the SMW version of Roy Jones may be the best fighter to ever grace the sport hands down...he was a phenom...He wasn't there long and he was not as good at MW or LHW though he was great all together but the SMW version was something else...