I don't mean skill wise i just mean opposition wise, achievement wise etc.
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I don't mean skill wise i just mean opposition wise, achievement wise etc.
IMO No! But Pepp. Armstrong, Ali & Duran are up there imo (I know you disagree with Duran)
No i don't disagree with Duran anymore BIG H i made a topic along time ago let me try and find it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Found it here you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBNo i don't disagree with Duran anymore BIG H i made a topic along time ago let me try and find it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...wrong-way.html
I would say Armstrong & Ali def. have an arguement.
Then theres some that can come close 'to having an arguement' but fall short:
Duran, Pernell, Alexis, JCC, SRL, Hearns & Finito but like I said fall short...
Some people say Sam Langford is best P4P fighter ever, because he fought at Lightweight and even fought Heavyweights, but i don't know much about Langford to make a case, i bet BK could though shame he isn't here.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
In my opinion I would have to say no. There are some fighters up there and close like Cutmemick said above but Ray Robinson still keeps his throne.
I do not think I have ever heard a fighter bold enough to even make that claim except Floyd Mayweather JR and as good as he is the guy does not come close.
This is a bit of a toughie for me to answer, because when we are talking pound for pound I personally place far more emphasis on a fighters form, and how good I actually feel they were, rather than what they accomplished. I mean isn't that logical?? As far as a record and achievements within the sport go, noone will ever surpass Ray Robinson. It just isn't possible to have as many fights, and as many wins over good fighters these days. The way fighters are handled has drastically changed. Does that mean that there couldn't possibly be a better fighter than SRR? Not at all imo. I think Roy Jones, Whittaker, Leonard, Hearns, Duran, and possibly Mayweather all WERE better than Robinson ever was. I feel it's unfair to hold SRR's p4p ranking as untouchable(as most seem to) based on the quality wins he had..
Oh i agree with you there from what i've seen Robinson was very beatable. But thats the problem i think when we say *From what we have seen*. Because most of the footage is of Robinson at Middleweight when he was past his peak. Theres hardly any footage of when he was at his prime at Welterweight, so really and truthfully skill wise we don't actually know how good he really was at his best, but i still agree with what your saying but i would still put him in the top 10 of all time skill wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Good point, now that you mention it I don't think I've seen a single full fight of Robinson at welter, just snippets, you know of any availabe online? That really does just add to my point though imo, as I'm sure most everyone who doesn't dare question his being no.1 p4p all time, haven't seen much of him as a welter either. I will say with full confidence that based solely on his campaign as a middleweight, there's no way you could call him the best p4p fighter to ever live.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBOh i agree with you there from what i've seen Robinson was very beatable. But thats the problem i think when we say *From what we have seen*. Because most of the footage is of Robinson at Middleweight when he was past his peak. Theres hardly any footage of when he was at his prime at Welterweight, so really and truthfully skill wise we don't actually know how good he really was at his best, but i still agree with what your saying but i would still put him in the top 10 of all time skill wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Harry Greb, Henry Armstrong, Sam Langford.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
You can make cases.
I dont think Ali , as he couldn't fight inside as good as SRR , who could punch , had speed , movement , fight inside, outside , counter , his only weakness was he cut.
The only fighter who i have seen enough of who i could say had all these attributes was Ricardo Lopez.
but its almost impossible to compare anyone to SRR because of the amount of fights he won , and what he achieved.
only guy i'd be able to say can challenge it, is Armstrong, 3 championships, at 3 weight classes, at the same time has to say something
Don't know if you knew this but did you know Sugar Ray Robinson, beat an old Henry Armstrong over 10 rounds ??Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
Nope there will never be another like or any where near the talent's of Ray Robinson.
When deciding the #1 of all time, you have to factor in EVERYTHING, not just achievements IMO.
Depending on how he closes out his career, I think Floyd Mayweather could have a good case for being the greatest of all time. I know the Floyd haters are going to laugh at this, but if you put aside any personal bias while watching his fight footage its easy to see that you can put this guy up with anyone who ever fought. I mean where are Floyd's weaknesses? He can seemingly adapt to any style. Where Robinson has the edge in punching power, Floyd has a serious edge in superior defense.
In my book Robinson is quicker,stronger,better footwork,and hell throw's twice as many punches so stamina is on Robinson's side.Chin has to go to Robinson down alot more than Floyd but all Ray's knockdown's came from bigger men middleweight's when he was a welterweight,maybe if Floyd openend up a little more maybe we can see what his jaw is all about. I'm sorry if I am coming off like I'm nagging but to put Mayweather in a Ray Robinson's class is just ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
duran and sugar ray leonard definetly have a case . i dont rate SRR as p4p number one of all time i dont think you can when you have to pick out of
the unbeatable roy jones for most of his career
leonard who beat hagler the invincible
hagler himself should be nearish the top
duran who came bacxk so many times
larry holmes who dominated for 7 years
and of course ali
as have been mentioned there are more
unfortunetly for me hatton and cotto who al hate him! haha i think he probably is in robinsons class to be honest. to beat corrales by tko dela hoya, hatton castillo twice etcetc unfortunetly i think he is as good as robinson and probably only second to roy jones in natrul talentQuote:
Originally Posted by The FightfanIn my book Robinson is quicker,stronger,better footwork,and hell throw's twice as many punches so stamina is on Robinson's side.Chin has to go to Robinson down alot more than Floyd but all Ray's knockdown's came from bigger men middleweight's when he was a welterweight,maybe if Floyd openend up a little more maybe we can see what his jaw is all about. I'm sorry if I am coming off like I'm nagging but to put Mayweather in a Ray Robinson's class is just ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
It's almost impossible to compare them. Ray fought practically every month for long time, Floyd hasn't fought more than 3 or 4 times in year since 1998. He was active early in his career, but Robinson stayed active longer. Of course this takes a huge toll on the body, and we can never know how Floyd would turned out if he has to fight as often as the old schoolers.
Also, Mayweather may be boxings best student ever, but he didn't originate most of the things he does. Robinson originated so many different things, did things nobody else had seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fightfan
Speed? I dont think so, Floyd has the speed advantage, albiet not by much. Stamina is on Robinson's side? How do you figure, when have you ever seen PBF gas out? Chin? Probably, but Floyd can take a punch, he's been tagged before. Better footwork? Floyd could move around just as well and fast (if not better and faster) than Ray Robinson. Putting Floyd in SRR's class is rediculous? I don't think so. Floyd's only flaw is his shitty personality. It creates bias, and causes people to downplay his skills and ability.
I gaurentee you, future generations of boxing fans will put Floyd up there. Maybe even as #1, because for the most part they'll be judging him on his in-ring exploits, not all the other bullshit. Its like SRR, when we think of him we don't think of him as the arrogant prick he was. We don't think of the guy who cheated on and beat the shit out of his wife. We don't think of him as the guy who would threaten to pull out of a fight at the last second unless he got more money. No one says "Ahhh fuck SRR he ducked Charley Burley he was scared." We just watch his fight tapes and know that he was the real deal and had the goods. When all of this "Money Mayweather" bullshit is all gone, and people can look at his career and performances objectively, they'll view him as one of if not the greatest IMHO
Only Ali and Gene Tunney for me.
I'm just suprised Christian Mijares hasn't been mentioned :rolleyes:
I think one day maybe there could be but i wouldnt say any time in the near future..
We dont really think much of it but Ray robinsons legacy has had years to cook over and not only his career is long in the past but all his opponents careers are all finished (of course) and word of mouth and everything else stands the test of time and you dont question all the little things like you would with a current active fighter today, or one of the recent past..
Like duran i would say is just about at that stage where his legacy has passed the test of time and all people have for him is love, admiration and respect.. But im sure he was criticised like alot of active fighters are today..
But imo i can imagine big time p4p legends that are considered by fans in 50 years will include the likes of Jones, Hopkins Floyd.. Its like theyre never really appreciated until they are gone.. we will see how far sloyd goes before he actually hangs up the gloves.. he could well be considered in the same light given many years to mull it over...Course srr was a beast of a hitter too which floyd lacks..Lol damn that man was a ledge..
It has nothing to do with hating and everything to do with him refusing to test how good he actually is. He was fantastic in the lower weight classes, but has shunned the most deserving competition in his higher ones. That is not hate, but well established opinion by many. Floyd gets a lot of flack for a reason and not just because.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
I heard he is now going to give up his WBC belt. With somewhat of a mini unification fight coming up, could it be because he does not want to get pressured into a full unification fight with the winner? Who knows, but the timing really sucks.
Roy Jones Jnr is the best p4p fighter I have ever seen and if he retired after the Ruiz fight we would all say that he was number 1. Well most of us :)
its all about how you evaluate these things.
there are 2 schools of thought ability and acheivements.
For some reason we seem to be moulded into believing the greatest fighters werent neccesarily the ones who saw and conquered everything in the sport but those who gave us the more lasting memorys.
Ali is not only considered the greatest boxer of all time but proffessional sportsman. There are many that argue this case, some will claim marciano/lewis on terms of acheivements should be considered far greater heavyweights. Some suggest frazier/foreman on natural all out ability.
The great thing about ali was that whenever he had to shine, whenever he had the chance to look completely awe inspiring he rose to the occasion.
For that reason i have him as the greatest heavyweight of all time and he always will be in my eyes.
As for the greatest P4P - Its a whole different can of worms that various different things have to be considered before you can make judgement.
In terms of natural ability ali/leonard, acomplishments robinson/marciano