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ESPN - Stuck on the Hall of Fame fence - Boxing
I'm sure somebody's gonna mention Barry McGuigan
With Casamayor you could make the case that he could be undefeated (of course you could say he lost to Santa Cruz too)
The Hatton one I'm sure will be a friendly debate.
Meh, I can't bring myself to say something positive about Tarver. I guess that's not very objective.
I was surprised he mentioned Penalosa but he's had a very underrated career, a very good fighter.
There are other ones obviously. There's always been the debate about Gatti, strictly as a fighter I would say no. I wouldn't be surprised if he got in though.
Gatti should be a future HOFer. Win or lose he was really entertaining to watch. He gave big contributions to the boxing world too.
As for Penalosa. For those people who really know him, and followed his career for over decade should know that ALL of his losses were controvesies. He should be also in hall of fame 7 to 8 years from now.
Casamayor and Penalosa yes. The others fukk no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
all the ones listed ny you, no fucking way IMO
How the hell can someone even suggest tarver should be a HOFer??
He beat a 35 year old RJJ and a 36 year old glen johnson, had he of beaten them to at the turn of the decade sure this could be an interesting debate...but he didnt and it isnt.
I dont usually like to comment on potential world class boxers that have fought any lower than 126 as i dont pay attention those divisions..
Calderon looks to be a great little warrior from the few occasions ive seen of him, penalosa always reminded me of that guy who could of come to the party and made a hell of an impression but never quite managed it.
Hatton is 44-1 and his only defeat was by the single greatest p4p athlete of our generation.
If you suggest he shouldnt be a hall of famer you may as well suggest neither should manny pacquiao or marco antonio barrera!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Pacquiao and Barrera have far higher quality wins than Hatton though, it's not just about who they lost to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Pacquiao and Barrera have far higher quality wins than Hatton though, it's not just about who they lost to.
If the hall of fame was about out and out quality im sure you could find a perfectly good argument to suggest someone like ricardo mayorga should be in there.
But its a combination of many different factors. 44-1 is more than enough to argue for hall of fame status, add to that the fact he is still unbeaten and untested at 140, won a world title in a division he wasnt comfortable in and has wins over greats like kostya tszyu and JLC.
I'm a big hatton fan but I admit, those two deserve fully to be ranked above Hatton no question. Though Hatton should be definitely in there IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Pacquiao and Barrera have far higher quality wins than Hatton though, it's not just about who they lost to.
I'm trying but not succeeding.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Pacquiao and Barrera have far higher quality wins than Hatton though, it's not just about who they lost to.
If the hall of fame was about out and out quality im sure you could find a perfectly good argument to suggest someone like ricardo mayorga should be in there.
But its a combination of many different factors. 44-1 is more than enough to argue for hall of fame status, add to that the fact he is still unbeaten and untested at 140, won a world title in a division he wasnt comfortable in and has wins over greats like kostya tszyu and JLC.
I wouldn't put any of those guys in that article in the Hall of Fame yet. When it comes to HOFs in any sport, I think that the tougher the standards are, the better the HOF is and the more an induction means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Exactly
when did the HOF become a recognition that any half decent world champion could have an argument to be in??
When cretins like Jose Suliaman, Don King & Bob Arum are inducted then the credibilty of the HOF suffers . Who is next Bob Lee & Panama Lewis ?????
Suliman I can probably agree with you on, though I don't know enough about his career... But Dong King and Bob Arum absolutely belong in the Hof based on it's standards. I would be all for it if they didn't induct people who weren't either fighters or trainers, who didn't personally compete. However since that's not the case, King and Arum have probably done more for the sport of boxing than any fighter by a long way. Of course they have screwed their share of people over, that comes with the territory... But Don King's first promotion was the rumble in the jungle, and since then has put together so many huge events and been probably the most recognizable face in the sport. Bob Arum even today is doing great things for the sport in many ways, he's putting his best talent in the fights people really want to see currently. I don't see how you can exclude guys like that based on their impact on the sport. Which is the same reason I'm pretty sure Gatti will get in, although so many technically superior fighters will not.Quote:
Originally Posted by C.J.Rock
44-1 in itself means absolutely nothing. Tons of guys have gone almost undefeated past 50 fights and built up horribly padded records. The fact that he is "untested" at 140 is because the best fighters there long ago moved up to Welter. He basically failed to be succesful in doing so. I honestly have never heard more made of one jump in weight class than over Hatton, although obviously I wasn't there at the time in most cases. I don't think it gives him a complete out for the Collazo fight, as imo he clearly was a better WW against Mayweather who probably wouldn't have had so much trouble. I'm not really saying Hatton shouldn't go in the hall here, and tbo I didn't even read the article, but I'm just kind of playing devils advocate. What exactly makes Hatton a more worthy candidate than Tarver to the Hall? I just can't personally see it. Tarver beat Roy Jones Jr, who was past his best however had never been beaten and coming off winning the HW title(of course this worked against him but I'm just putting the win at the time in perspective), and still had enough to beat Tarver at his absolute best in a tough fight the first go. Then he split a couple tough fights with Glen Johnson who has more than proved his worth since, I thought Tarver actually won both of them. Lost to Hopkins, beat Clinton Woods. Before his big night he just had a bunch of aging names he'd beaten, Griffin, Harding, Johnson... Actually very similar to Hatton's career on paper or in form if you ask me. Makes me wonder how much that really has to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Pacquiao and Barrera have far higher quality wins than Hatton though, it's not just about who they lost to.
If the hall of fame was about out and out quality im sure you could find a perfectly good argument to suggest someone like ricardo mayorga should be in there.
But its a combination of many different factors. 44-1 is more than enough to argue for hall of fame status, add to that the fact he is still unbeaten and untested at 140, won a world title in a division he wasnt comfortable in and has wins over greats like kostya tszyu and JLC.
There's little doubt in my mind that Casamayor is a hall of famer, one of the most successful Cubans of all time, I really don't think there is an argument against there. They are generous as to who they let in, so Casamayor I really don't see how you don't let him in. I think he's one of the greats of the generation.
Seem's as though it has become so watered down over the years as far as guidelines and what exactley merits and defines a Hall of famer...Titles obtained/won & defended...Quality of Opposition faced and defeated as well as skill set...Over all contribution to the sport and effects on it's past,present & future ??? I have Never looked into the official guidelines given by the H.O.F??
If Barrys in then the rest can just walk right in and make themselves feel at home. :)
:lol:...True,and they will.I wish I was so concise ...;DQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
As for the article:
Casa - yes
Hatton - On the fence still
Gerry - On the fence still
Tarver - no
Ivan - On the fence still
I agree with Raskin on most thing here. Especially what he says about Gerry & Ivan.
Something to think about here about the Hall of Fame.
Here are some names of fighters who SHOULD be hall of fame but have not yet been inducted. Now IMO these fighters are head & shoulders above Gerry and they happen to be Asian.
I'll start of with some of Gerrys country men who are NOT in the Hall.
Ceferino Garcia & Luisito Espinoza.
Then you've got the rest of Asians who are still waiting in line themselves;
Jung Koo Chang, Chong Pal Park, Chartchai Chionoi, Ki Soo Kim, Myung Woo Yuh, Yoko Gushiken, Sot Chitalada, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Masao Ohba, Yoshio Shirai, Pone Kingpetch, Jiro Watanabe....
I can go on and on, my point here is that for Gerry to be in the Hall is possible but just look at that list I just put together of great Asian fighters who are NOT in yet.
I mean Masamori Tokuyama beat Gerry twice (I know one of the fights was close) but I would give Masamori more of a chance at Hall then Gerry now.
No Ponglashit? :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
;D
Tokuyama was a very good fighter. Very underrated. Espinoza was good to. But that chin was always his downfall. I remember Israel Contreras blitzed him in his own backyard. I don't think Espinoza is HOF material.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
I can just about Neg. Rep. you right about now... :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by SE7EN
;D No, sorry no PongsaShit.
Israel wasted no time in that fight, he measured Luisito really nice and the jab set up the whole thing for Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseTokuyama was a very good fighter. Very underrated. Espinoza was good to. But that chin was always his downfall. I remember Israel Contreras blitzed him in his own backyard. I don't think Espinoza is HOF material.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Well Luisito "might" not be HOF material but my point is that for me Gerrys got a lot of work to do if he want's to be HOF. Which is why I listed all these fighters....
But with that being said, you also gotta see his credentials, WBA Bantam champ 2 defenses, WBC Feather champ 7 defenses and facing opponents such as "Cobrita" Gonzalez, "Mantecas" Medina, Carlos Rios (who at that time was rated #8 in the world), & Kennedy McKinney.
While Gerrys credentials are: WBC Super Fly. champ 2 defenses, WBO Batam champ 1 defense. Opponents; Kawashima, Sor Vorapin, Jhonny.
Mick I've posted several times on this, I'll just drop a linkQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ame-bound.html
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...about-him.html
The HOF is not just for boxing achievements, but ones effect on the boxing worl, its fans and his representation of the sport.
Ricardo Mayorga SHOULD be in there! He's a living legend in my book. I love that guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
Pacquiao and Barrera have far higher quality wins than Hatton though, it's not just about who they lost to.
If the hall of fame was about out and out quality im sure you could find a perfectly good argument to suggest someone like ricardo mayorga should be in there.
But its a combination of many different factors. 44-1 is more than enough to argue for hall of fame status, add to that the fact he is still unbeaten and untested at 140, won a world title in a division he wasnt comfortable in and has wins over greats like kostya tszyu and JLC.
I think Hatton's record except for Tszyu, Castillo, is only decent. Not trying to be an ass here but im not sure if i would have him in the HOF just because of his two wins over past there prime fighters. And to even suggest that Hatton should be ranked higher than Barrera or Pacquiao is pure madness. But like others have said if Bazza can get in there why not Hatton ??
How could you NOT see the absolute similarity between Tarver and Hatton's breakthrough wins?Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
As for the hall, both guys are about the sam IMO at th moment though there's time for both guys to make a statement still in their careers.
HOF is very difficult to decide, as the guys Mick mentioned which I've read about elsewhere where the Asian fighters have been largely ignored, and then guys with so-so records getting in setting a precedent for something like 50% of world beltholders ever getting in.
I don't believe HOF is on relative achievement alone, otherwise Bazzo would never be there, but there is a spot IMO for guys like Bazzo and Gatti due to their rather unique contributions (Gatti's wars and Barry's popularity transcending the religious barrier in N.I.)
Tarver beat some other contenders at 175 besides the wins over Johnson and Jones (whom he also lost to). Tarver probably beat more top 10 contenders than Hatton did.Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
I probably wouldn't put Tarver in though.
I would rather see these guys get inducted into Canastota. They're all eligble as of now and are more deserving than the debates of recent/active fighters I often hear like Tarver, Gatti, etc..
Brian Mitchell
Esteban Dejesus
Marlon Starling
Donald Curry
Julian Jackson
Eddie Booker
Lloyd Marshall
Eddie Booker destroyed a prime/near-prime Archie Moore. He dropped him 5 times and Moore said it was the worst beating he took, and Booker was the best guy he faced along with Charley Burley. Booker beat two HOFers and a bunch of other contenders and quality fighters.
Lloyd Marshall beat like half a dozen Hall of Famers, including a beatdown of a bonafide ATG in Ezzard Charles whom he put down 8 times. He beat Burley. He beat Jake LaMotta.
Why aren't these guys in Canastota?
Gatti should not be in the HOF. Sure he was entertaining, but that was because 9 times out of 10 he was getting his face pounded in. The guy isn't 40 years old and has a face like Milton Burle.
When does that stop though? I mean it is fair to draw the line, say we made a mistake and start raising the standards again?Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Been meaning to say..great point Lol!without generalizing,Asian fighters up until recently have been under the radar.If Yuh & Chang with eye popping # of defenses 17 & 15 respectively,among others are not worthy of the HOF,maybe they should overhaul there requirements for induction,or just turn it into a Big box store like Sam's club :-X.I do think the isolation in there homelands have attributed to being overlooked,Yuh only loss was when he went to Japan vs.Ioka which he would soon defeat in rematch.Changs competition was quality,Chitalada,(2nd fight was a toss up)Ohashi,Zapata,Torres Gonzalez...the man was literally ONE punch away from claiming 2nd division strap at Flyweight vs.Kittakasem and ran into an eyes closed swing for the fences type of bomb in the 12th round.Maybe some day they will get the call??Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
So can anyone actually provide a logical arguement as to why Hatton should belong in the hall, but Tarver definetly doesn't? I just don't see that much seperating their careers aside from popularity.. Beaten about the same calibre of fighters, I don't see a big gap in ability, if anything Tarver has had more longevity to his career.. Just puzzles me.
Thanks Spicoli,Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsBeen meaning to say..great point Lol!without generalizing,Asian fighters up until recently have been under the radar.If Yuh & Chang with eye popping # of defenses 17 & 15 respectively,among others are not worthy of the HOF,maybe they should overhaul there requirements for induction,or just turn it into a Big box store like Sam's club :-X.I do think the isolation in there homelands have attributed to being overlooked,Yuh only loss was when he went to Japan vs.Ioka which he would soon defeat in rematch.Changs competition was quality,Chitalada,(2nd fight was a toss up)Ohashi,Zapata,Torres Gonzalez...the man was literally ONE punch away from claiming 2nd division strap at Flyweight vs.Kittakasem and ran into an eyes closed swing for the fences type of bomb in the 12th round.Maybe some day they will get the call??Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
I am not trying to discredit Penalosa in any way I just wanted to show how much work he's gonna need if he want's to be HoF.
I'm with you all the way if those fighters aren't HoF yet with their credentials then honestly I can't see Penalosa as HoF anytime soon after he retires. I mean how long have some of these fighters been retired/out of the game for?
Let's hope that the HoF picks it up and get's itself back together for the better.
to even have casayamor in this conversation is ridicoulous gurantee hof
hatton making it he's a fan favorite
calderon another win against cazares what can he do after
penosola with no fights ahead i think its too late to leave a mark ,but great fighter
tarver a hof then stacy dash is givin me some head
He can fight "Archie" Solis who along with Cazares have been considered the 2 best Flys.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyBacon
dominated his division for almost 5 years nowQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
only been beaten once..which was by the very best
is a thrill a minute entertainer that attracts 50,000+ for fights
is a 2 weight world champion
Doesnt star in shit sequels
need i go on...