Just looked at da rings ratings and they got him @ 6 p4p!
i mean shit i know he beat Cotto but he aint the 6th best fighter in the orld right now, tought as hell, big big heard and awsome work ethick, i am a big fan but 6 is way to high imo.
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Just looked at da rings ratings and they got him @ 6 p4p!
i mean shit i know he beat Cotto but he aint the 6th best fighter in the orld right now, tought as hell, big big heard and awsome work ethick, i am a big fan but 6 is way to high imo.
i agree hes a very good fighter , but he beat Cotto becuase styles make fights , i dont think he is an elite fighter , hes maybe 10 th.
well #6 does seem a little high but he did KO cotto which was in ppls eyes was #2 or #3
Saying he shouldn't be 6th just because he beat the guy who was 2nd/3rd/4th/5th or 6th is a little harsh i feel.
If you beat the world champion, you become the world champion. So i think if you beat the 6th rated p4p fighter (for example) you should take his place.
Whether he has style or great technique is irrelevant. He has the tools to get the job done. End of story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
Spot on mate. If you want to become a champion beat the champion. Simple as that isn't it. The myth p4p rate is the same. If you beat the #1 p4p, you inherit his place. The reason why its hard to debate regarding p4p myth is that some still think its about technique or style. What if a fighter have technique or style but fighting bums or non rated... are they still p4p fighter? Its supposed to be who you beat to make it to the list. By the way i'm not a fun of this myth rating. It's nothing and really tiring to debate on...
Ring ratings are corrupt anyway . I go by the box rec rankings
Agreed he is the man to beat now at 147 why should he not be placed at 6;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ono
Good pointQuote:
Originally Posted by antimoronQuote:
Originally Posted by ono
Spot on mate. If you want to become a champion beat the champion. Simple as that isn't it. The myth p4p rate is the same. If you beat the #1 p4p, you inherit his place. The reason why its hard to debate regarding p4p myth is that some still think its about technique or style. What if a fighter have technique or style but fighting bums or non rated... are they still p4p fighter? Its supposed to be who you beat to make it to the list. By the way i'm not a fun of this myth rating. It's nothing and really tiring to debate on...
And also we must take into account the fact that technique and style doesn't win you fights on their own.
If that was the case, Cotto would still be undefeated. Technically he is far superior to Margarito, but it wasn't enough.
Yes, he deserves it. Regardless of skill, if you can KO somebody rated as high as #2 or #3, you should be ranked around 4th-7th.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
eesh what has the forum come to when i gotta you agreeing with me? ahha joking fella
Ok i dont check the ring ratings much anymore because they are wank, just like their self promoting articles.
but when the hell has cotto ever been 2 or 3? he has always been lower top 10??? yet to see creditable ratings rank him in the top 5, let alone fucking 2 or 3 lol
I would flip flop Margarito and Pavlik. Other than that, I don't see what the problem is with Margarito's ranking.
Miguel Cotto was rated 6th by Ring Magazine before his loss to Antonio Margarito.............
I believe majority of boxing fans had Miguel Cotto as a top 5 P4P fighter im not sure where Antonio Margarito was rated before his fight with Miguel Cotto but it does seem a big leap because im not even sure he would of been top 20 P4P fighter before the Miguel Cotto fight..............
But he did KO the number 6th rated P4P going by Ring Magazine's rankings and he has took his place nothing wrong in it although i have him rated lower than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
i dont see how u can put him in front of williams this soon after his loss, its not like he has improved or anything...
Then you got margarito 1, williams 2, cotto 3 in the WW rankings, yet williams is not in the p4p? he is a better WW that cotto goinmg by their ww rankings but not better p4p? even tho with his size he could prolly go up to middle or smw lol
Fuck the ring the lost the plot.
End of the day magarito is going to struggle agasint anyone who can box and has a chin, and there are a load of fighters out there who can do that.
He beat cotto coz cotto tired and has a dodgy chin fact.
cotto will get fucked up against any fighter who can take his punches and fight right tot he end. Shane tired after 3 rounds so don't throw him in the mix. stopping him doesnt make u some special fighter, tonis chin won him the fight, nothign else. to many fighters out there now could out box and take marg the distance in p4p terms.
thats coming from a guy who is a pretty big fan, but a realistic one of toni's.
and going by most of the logic on here, shouldn't taylor of been #1 when he beat hopkins?
Well, he did just pull off the biggest win of his career, a bigger win than anything Williams has ever done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
This is a separate argument. I see your logic, but I don't see how Cotto being above Williams has anything to do with Margarito not being deserving of #6 PFP.Quote:
Then you got margarito 1, williams 2, cotto 3 in the WW rankings, yet williams is not in the p4p? he is a better WW that cotto goinmg by their ww rankings but not better p4p?
Or maybe Cotto got tired because Margarito was nailing him with quality body shots and uppercuts....Quote:
He beat cotto coz cotto tired and has a dodgy chin fact.
So Cotto loses one fight, now he'll lose to anyone who can take his punches?? Wow, not true at all. Margarito fought a great fight, give him credit.Quote:
cotto will get fucked up against any fighter who can take his punches and fight right tot he end.
No he didn't. He came on strong in the late rounds against Cotto. You're just discounting Mosley because Mosley completely disproves your point about Cotto not being able to beat anyone who can take his punches. Mosley took Cotto's punches and Cotto still beat him.Quote:
Shane tired after 3 rounds so don't throw him in the mix.
I have to neg rep you for that. You have no basis for that comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
The Ring has the most transparent rating system out there: votes from all the leading boxing journalist.
box rec is just a mathematic formula; which is much easier to manipulate through padding records.
Beat the man to take his place? That doesn't work. Technique and style HAVE to be a factor in P4P.Quote:
Originally Posted by onoQuote:
Originally Posted by antimoron
Spot on mate. If you want to become a champion beat the champion. Simple as that isn't it. The myth p4p rate is the same. If you beat the #1 p4p, you inherit his place. The reason why its hard to debate regarding p4p myth is that some still think its about technique or style. What if a fighter have technique or style but fighting bums or non rated... are they still p4p fighter? Its supposed to be who you beat to make it to the list. By the way i'm not a fun of this myth rating. It's nothing and really tiring to debate on...
The strength of each division and the fighters operating in them changes constantly.
What about P4P fighters that become OLD (more chance of losing) but still retain their position?
Pac is currently ranked 1. He is moving up in weight which increases his chance of LOSING without losing his P4P ranking. What if David Diaz had sparked him out. Diaz deserves to be ranked the BEST fighter on earth? ;)
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
That proves judging P4P by "beat the man take his place" is about as flawed as you can get.
The real question is where was Antonio Margarito rated before the Miguel Cotto fight ? because im not even sure if he would of been in the top 20 P4P no offense.
I thought he was funny. Never occurred to me one second he might be meaning it. Still dont.Quote:
Originally Posted by lance UppercutI have to neg rep you for that. You have no basis for that comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
The Ring has the most transparent rating system out there: votes from all the leading boxing journalist.
box rec is just a mathematic formula; which is much easier to manipulate through padding records.
HmmQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterBeat the man to take his place? That doesn't work. Technique and style HAVE to be a factor in P4P.Quote:
Originally Posted by onoQuote:
Originally Posted by antimoron
Spot on mate. If you want to become a champion beat the champion. Simple as that isn't it. The myth p4p rate is the same. If you beat the #1 p4p, you inherit his place. The reason why its hard to debate regarding p4p myth is that some still think its about technique or style. What if a fighter have technique or style but fighting bums or non rated... are they still p4p fighter? Its supposed to be who you beat to make it to the list. By the way i'm not a fun of this myth rating. It's nothing and really tiring to debate on...
The strength of each division and the fighters operating in them changes constantly.
What about P4P fighters that become OLD (more chance of losing) but still retain their position?
Pac is currently ranked 1. He is moving up in weight which increases his chance of LOSING without losing his P4P ranking. What if David Diaz had sparked him out. Diaz deserves to be ranked the BEST fighter on earth? ;)
Surely the p4p rankings are there to show who would be the best fighter in the world if everybody fought at the same weight?
So there is no way that Cotto can be above Margarito...:confused:
I agree that a fighter moving up several weight division and finally losing isn't enough for him to lose his place...if it was apparent that it was purely the weight factor that beat him. (how you decide that, god only knows).
And maybe freak occurances like for example if someone like Carlos Maussa somehow fought Mayweather(if he was stil #1) and caught him (somehow again) with a brutal left hook and ko'd him, then moving him to number 1 based on that might be a little shifty....because 99times out of 100 Mayweather would beat him.
But, the way in which Margarito beat Cotto to me means that Cotto cannot be above him. I see no way how Cotto can beat him. I think Saturday proved that. It wasn't a freak occurence. It was a mental beatdown.
I agree that technique and style have to be factor but it shouldn't be everything....because it's clearly not everything in boxing. I think you have to judge each case on it's merit, but to me, if a fighter beats the 'man' and does it decisively....without it being freak occurence or the result of a guy fighting way above/below their weight range, then he should take his place.
and breathe....;D
Well to make up for the neg rep, i'm pos repping him because he was clearly joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_KI thought he was funny. Never occurred to me one second he might be meaning it. Still dont.Quote:
Originally Posted by lance UppercutI have to neg rep you for that. You have no basis for that comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
The Ring has the most transparent rating system out there: votes from all the leading boxing journalist.
box rec is just a mathematic formula; which is much easier to manipulate through padding records.
Of course technique and style shouldn't be everthing. They go with longevity, quality of opposition etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by onoHmmQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterBeat the man to take his place? That doesn't work. Technique and style HAVE to be a factor in P4P.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
The strength of each division and the fighters operating in them changes constantly.
What about P4P fighters that become OLD (more chance of losing) but still retain their position?
Pac is currently ranked 1. He is moving up in weight which increases his chance of LOSING without losing his P4P ranking. What if David Diaz had sparked him out. Diaz deserves to be ranked the BEST fighter on earth? ;)
Surely the p4p rankings are there to show who would be the best fighter in the world if everybody fought at the same weight?
So there is no way that Cotto can be above Margarito...:confused:
I agree that a fighter moving up several weight division and finally losing isn't enough for him to lose his place...if it was apparent that it was purely the weight factor that beat him. (how you decide that, god only knows).
And maybe freak occurances like for example if someone like Carlos Maussa somehow fought Mayweather(if he was stil #1) and caught him (somehow again) with a brutal left hook and ko'd him, then moving him to number 1 based on that might be a little shifty....because 99times out of 100 Mayweather would beat him.
But, the way in which Margarito beat Cotto to me means that Cotto cannot be above him. I see no way how Cotto can beat him. I think Saturday proved that. It wasn't a freak occurence. It was a mental beatdown.
I agree that technique and style have to be factor but it shouldn't be everything....because it's clearly not everything in boxing. I think you have to judge each case on it's merit, but to me, if a fighter beats the 'man' and does it decisively....without it being freak occurence or the result of a guy fighting way above/below their weight range, then he should take his place.
and breathe....;D
Damn! You write some confusing stuff ono ;D
Who said Cotto should rank above Margarito? I missed that. :-\
In Margarito's case - he enhanced his standing among the top fighters in the world. He ranks higher than Cotto.
But as your own examples highlighted (before you went back to your original opinion :-\) taking the place of the fighter you defeated is highly flawed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
LOL Hilarious.
Yeah i confused myself actually. Forgot what the thread was even about in the end...;DQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterOf course technique and style shouldn't be everthing. They go with longevity, quality of opposition etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by onoHmmQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Surely the p4p rankings are there to show who would be the best fighter in the world if everybody fought at the same weight?
So there is no way that Cotto can be above Margarito...:confused:
I agree that a fighter moving up several weight division and finally losing isn't enough for him to lose his place...if it was apparent that it was purely the weight factor that beat him. (how you decide that, god only knows).
And maybe freak occurances like for example if someone like Carlos Maussa somehow fought Mayweather(if he was stil #1) and caught him (somehow again) with a brutal left hook and ko'd him, then moving him to number 1 based on that might be a little shifty....because 99times out of 100 Mayweather would beat him.
But, the way in which Margarito beat Cotto to me means that Cotto cannot be above him. I see no way how Cotto can beat him. I think Saturday proved that. It wasn't a freak occurence. It was a mental beatdown.
I agree that technique and style have to be factor but it shouldn't be everything....because it's clearly not everything in boxing. I think you have to judge each case on it's merit, but to me, if a fighter beats the 'man' and does it decisively....without it being freak occurence or the result of a guy fighting way above/below their weight range, then he should take his place.
and breathe....;D
Damn! You write some confusing stuff ono ;D
Who said Cotto should rank above Margarito? I missed that. :-\
In Margarito's case - he enhanced his standing among the top fighters in the world. He ranks higher than Cotto.
But as your own examples highlighted (before you went back to your original opinion :-\) taking the place of the fighter you defeated is highly flawed.
Anyway yeah it's flawed...i didn't take into consideration what you pointed out (diaz beating pac and being #1 etc...)
But yeah providing there wasn't obvious exceptional circumstances in the defeat (complete fluke, losing several divisions outside your weight range etc...) i think it's justified.
All in all, i'd suggest judging each case on it's merit.
Fuck sake i've basically just repeated my last post again. :mad:
Yeah ignore me, you get my point anyway....i hope
;D
This is one of those cases where I can see everyone's point. Margie did beat Cotto, yet for some reason putting him @ number six p4p feels wrong. I can also see how some would feel he doesn't belong there at all.
Of course, when HitmanDon asked us to make our p4p list I had Arthur Abraham at number 10 so...:-\
I'll also add that a fighter who didn't rank anywhere near the top 20 was to somehow defrone the p4p king, i'd be hesitant at putting him at the top.
Jesus, if i backtrack anymore i'll be typing from the bathroom
I'm going
It's a fine rating... Cotto in most people's minds was the #3 or 4 guy... 6 is fine... Name 7 or 8 people in the world that can beat him P4P and there's your answer.;)
;DQuote:
Originally Posted by ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by onoWell to make up for the neg rep, i'm pos repping him because he was clearly joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_KI thought he was funny. Never occurred to me one second he might be meaning it. Still dont.Quote:
Originally Posted by lance Uppercut
My bad "Game," I though you were being serious. I'll positive rep you next chance I get.
You see guys this is the problem of the myth rating. No argument that can satisfy everybody. It's too vague. In boxing risk is everything. Sometimes we are not convince when somebody who is not rated beat a p4p rated fighter. We sometimes look at it as a 1 off or fluke. But still a win is a win. Remember fighters are professionals so its not right to say he didn't train hard or any stupid reason when they lost. The winner deserve what he achieved. What is there to fight for if we consider the loser still above the winner when it comes to ratings just because he is more skilled and been there for a long time. Again you have to risk what you have to prove you deserve to be in the myth list. Actually all arguments regarding myth p4p ratings are 99% correct it's just that its hard to compare each fighters achievements coz they are not fighting at the same division and theres still a 1% doubt. Just take a look at Calzaghe's and Pacman's achievements, both are considered p4p top fighters but who is the best? If we use the criteria longetivity, skill, technique, quality of opponents and winnings/losses, it will not solve anything on who is the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPeaWell, he did just pull off the biggest win of his career, a bigger win than anything Williams has ever done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
This is a separate argument. I see your logic, but I don't see how Cotto being above Williams has anything to do with Margarito not being deserving of #6 PFP.Quote:
Then you got margarito 1, williams 2, cotto 3 in the WW rankings, yet williams is not in the p4p? he is a better WW that cotto goinmg by their ww rankings but not better p4p?
Or maybe Cotto got tired because Margarito was nailing him with quality body shots and uppercuts....
So Cotto loses one fight, now he'll lose to anyone who can take his punches?? Wow, not true at all. Margarito fought a great fight, give him credit.Quote:
cotto will get fucked up against any fighter who can take his punches and fight right to the end.
No he didn't. He came on strong in the late rounds against Cotto. You're just discounting Mosley because Mosley completely disproves your point about Cotto not being able to beat anyone who can take his punches. Mosley took Cotto's punches and Cotto still beat him.Quote:
Shane tired after 3 rounds so don't throw him in the mix.
toni hitting him with good shots would add to him getting tired. but look at most of his tough fights that have gone 12 or far he has tired bad.
Paulie slowed him down and kept a pretty close fight with him, i;m sure it wasnt his hard shots that slowed him down.
Mosley was fucked after a few rounds, yes he enevr gave up and "came ons trong" a lot of that down to Cotto once againt getting tired and allowing shane to come on, when guys tire they become an easier target, lack the same punching power and the movement becomes limited, you know this as much as anyone. all of that has been happeing to Cotto lately and in most of his tough long distance fights.
there for i see no reason to pick Cotto over any tough fighter who can fight 12 hard rounds and has a very sterdy chin.
As for Cotto being toni's best win, so what? thats doesnt matter shit lol everytime someone has a career best win they get a p4p stop just outside the top5? sorry failing to see your logic here...
The remark about the williams cotto thing was more aimed at game to back his statement up about the ring being bullshit at times in their ratings.