would his performance be more dominant then Michael Phelps? I think so. Discuss.
Printable View
would his performance be more dominant then Michael Phelps? I think so. Discuss.
How do you figure that considering Phelps won 8 golds? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Well there are a lot more chances for gold in the sport of swimming. I might be mistaken but I don't believe Phelps swam over 200m in these Olympics, the only way for Bolt to win gold would be for him to enter the marathon and 1500m races as well and have one of the greatest relay teams in history.
But I can't egt over just how dominant Bolt was. I love the sprints, they are the highlight of the Olympics for me. For Bolt to get the second worst reaction time out of the blocks, then have it be a wash at the 50m mark is beyond ridiculous. They were saying he could have been in the 9.5's if he didn't start pounding his chest at 70m, yet even when he pounded his chest he still set the world record and by a lot. 9.69. Put that in the perspective of earlier this year, the day Bolt ran 9.72 in the Jamaica qualifiers, Tyson Gay ran the fastest 100m time in history with a 9.68 which barely qualified as wind aided. He went full stop to try to make a statement and he did. Put him right back up there as the favorite in the race, he could have ran that time, the fastest in history, and Bolt would have been forced to run 75 instead of 70. It's stuff that is so mind boggling it's to hard to wrap your head around. And (barring steroids) there is no controversy about the technology in running which there is in swimming which makes you take those world records with a grain of salt. Not to mention, Phelps, as epic as his Olympics have been, hasn't been untouchable as he's had a few fairly close finishes. Bolt on the other hand just doesn't seem human, he has been running the 100 for less then a year. I think he had less then 10 comps under his belt when he set the WR at the qualifiers, I don't know what he is at now.
Not to mention he is competing in a sport in which every able bodied person on this planet has an opportunity to compete in regardless of where they come from or what type of money they have.
**edit - Phelps did the 400 IM but that was his only event over 200m.
Phelps has won the 400 meters individual medley, 4 x 100 freestyle relay, 200 m freestyle, 200 m butterfly, 4x 200 freestyle relay, 200 m individual medley, 100 m butterfly and 4x100 medley relay.
I think swimming freestyle and butterfly are two totally different strokes and must be similar to a runner running 100 meters and 110 meter hurdles.
I guess for Bolt to match Phelps he would need the following.
100 meters
200 meters
110 hurdles
200 hurdles
400 metres
4x100 meters
4x200 meters
Then he'd be better imo.
I think not. Math says no. Bilbo offers a good explanation as to why. Plus consider how many times the world record for 100 and 200m has been broken, and likely how much more it will be broken. How soon until someone breaks Phelps precedent setting performance? Can't see it happening any time soon. Plus he will be back in 4 years most likely also.
Just watched Bolt run the 200m. I too am a fan of his and sprinting. He jogged about 1/2 of it.
There is no way Bolt is going to be even close to as decorated as Phelps I'm not arguing that, and I don't buy the freestyle/butterfly stroke either because how many swimmers compete in both? Nearly all of them. How manny runners compete in both sprints and hurdles? I can't recall any and I imagine you would have to go back a bit to find someone who medaled in both. That can't be a valid comparision.
And none of Phelps margin of victories were as completely unprecedented as Bolt's who could have won by more 5 lengths if he chose to.
Well Carl Lewis won Olympic golds in both the 100 meters, 200 meters and Long Jump and then became the only man in history to defend both his 100 meters and Long Jump titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
I don't really see any difference at all between 100 and 200 meters to be honest, the best sprinter in the world would naturally be world class over both events.
Phelps has won both 100 and 400 meter medals in this tournament plus there's much more of a difference between swimming an extra hundred meters and running it.
Besides am I alone in thinking that running is mostly a matter of genetics, I mean how much skill can there really be in running in a straight line?
At least swimming involves relatively difficult and unnatural techniques to learn, man not being adapted to the water after all.
I don't see any reason why a track and field athlete should find it any tougher to dominate multiple events than a swimmer really.
IF Carl Lewis can win both the 100 meter and 200 meter events plus the Long Jump then why not Bolt?
He hasn't done as much as Phelps, not even close imo, it just happens that the 100 meters is perhaps the most glamourous event and so gets more publicity.
I'd like to see Bolt win the 400m, he could win 5 golds that way 100m, 200m, 400m, 4x 100m and 4x 400m. Now that would be a massive achievement. He is a freak of nature though, starting to wind up his run with about 70 m to go and still manages 20.0 something. He could break Michael Johnsons record by the looks of him.
Yeah that would be something to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty
I see no reason why an athlete like Bolt couldn't dominate several events, like I said Lewis was the Long Jump world record holder as well as a top sprinter.
It's about time we had a truly great athlete who could do it all.
Gah I hate disagreeing with you Bilbo, if you can't even acknowledge that sprinting requires some skill or isn't determined at birth then how is anything I'm writing going to mean anything? oh wellQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell Carl Lewis won Olympic golds in both the 100 meters, 200 meters and Long Jump and then became the only man in history to defend both his 100 meters and Long Jump titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
I don't really see any difference at all between 100 and 200 meters to be honest, the best sprinter in the world would naturally be world class over both events.
Phelps has won both 100 and 400 meter medals in this tournament plus there's much more of a difference between swimming an extra hundred meters and running it.
Besides am I alone in thinking that running is mostly a matter of genetics, I mean how much skill can there really be in running in a straight line?
At least swimming involves relatively difficult and unnatural techniques to learn, man not being adapted to the water after all.
I don't see any reason why a track and field athlete should find it any tougher to dominate multiple events than a swimmer really.
IF Carl Lewis can win both the 100 meter and 200 meter events plus the Long Jump then why not Bolt?
He hasn't done as much as Phelps, not even close imo, it just happens that the 100 meters is perhaps the most glamourous event and so gets more publicity.
There is a ton of skill that goes in running, the same amount of skill that goes in swimming because half of the battle is just perfecting your technique. Besides, Phelps is 6'4 and has 30 inch legs with a size 15 shoe, if anyone is benefiting from genetics it is him.
How can you not see the difference between the 100 and 200? The 200m is way different just like a 1 mile and an 8th horse race is way different then a mile and a half horse race. Some people just hit their stride later. Bolt is built much better for the 200m because of how long his legs are. Usually guys with builds like that can't get going so fast which is what has been so amazing about Bolt from day 1. Bolt running 30 MPH isn't what makes him so amazing or a freak of nature, it's the fact that he can generate that speed so quickly. It's something the world has never seen before, if it was all down to genetics Bilbo then every runner in the 100 would be 6'5 and long and lanky not short and compact. What makes the 200 so interesting and so different is because you see more of a variety in body types and that's where you get an interesting mix of front runners and closers, much like horse racing. Bolt I would think is going to be untouchable in the 200 and I agree, I would like to see him run the 400 in the future.
And I don't think Bolt has ever competed in the long jump, it's a completely different sport. Jumping, running. Why doesn't Michael Phelps do synchronized diving? They both take place in water right? A lot of the American sprinters do do the long jump, Marion Jones also did the long jump but most drop it either in college or once they leave college if they make it that far in competition.
I'm not really disagreeing with you Amat, you know a lot more about the sport of sprinting than I do. To me it's just running in a stright line, but as yuo explained there is more to it than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by amatGah I hate disagreeing with you Bilbo, if you can't even acknowledge that sprinting requires some skill or isn't determined at birth then how is anything I'm writing going to mean anything? oh wellQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell Carl Lewis won Olympic golds in both the 100 meters, 200 meters and Long Jump and then became the only man in history to defend both his 100 meters and Long Jump titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
I don't really see any difference at all between 100 and 200 meters to be honest, the best sprinter in the world would naturally be world class over both events.
Phelps has won both 100 and 400 meter medals in this tournament plus there's much more of a difference between swimming an extra hundred meters and running it.
Besides am I alone in thinking that running is mostly a matter of genetics, I mean how much skill can there really be in running in a straight line?
At least swimming involves relatively difficult and unnatural techniques to learn, man not being adapted to the water after all.
I don't see any reason why a track and field athlete should find it any tougher to dominate multiple events than a swimmer really.
IF Carl Lewis can win both the 100 meter and 200 meter events plus the Long Jump then why not Bolt?
He hasn't done as much as Phelps, not even close imo, it just happens that the 100 meters is perhaps the most glamourous event and so gets more publicity.
There is a ton of skill that goes in running, the same amount of skill that goes in swimming because half of the battle is just perfecting your technique. Besides, Phelps is 6'4 and has 30 inch legs with a size 15 shoe, if anyone is benefiting from genetics it is him.
How can you not see the difference between the 100 and 200? The 200m is way different just like a 1 mile and an 8th horse race is way different then a mile and a half horse race. Some people just hit their stride later. Bolt is built much better for the 200m because of how long his legs are. Usually guys with builds like that can't get going so fast which is what has been so amazing about Bolt from day 1. Bolt running 30 MPH isn't what makes him so amazing or a freak of nature, it's the fact that he can generate that speed so quickly. It's something the world has never seen before, if it was all down to genetics Bilbo then every runner in the 100 would be 6'5 and long and lanky not short and compact. What makes the 200 so interesting and so different is because you see more of a variety in body types and that's where you get an interesting mix of front runners and closers, much like horse racing. Bolt I would think is going to be untouchable in the 200 and I agree, I would like to see him run the 400 in the future.
And I don't think Bolt has ever competed in the long jump, it's a completely different sport. Jumping, running. Why doesn't Michael Phelps do synchronized diving? They both take place in water right? A lot of the American sprinters do do the long jump, Marion Jones also did the long jump but most drop it either in college or once they leave college if they make it that far in competition.
I agree Phelps is genetically gifted but I would think swimming is harder to master than running just because we are designed to be able run and move around on land but not designed to swim in the water.
I find athletics to be a lot more interesting than swimming though.
That's a good point about being made to swim. I guess it comes down to billions of potential competitors versus...what you said.
I guess Phelps may be the most dominant athlete of the games but Bolt so far has been the most impressive imo. That's just off one race though but really that's one of the most impressive performances I've ever seen in all of sport.
Well got to say Bolt did look pretty awesome in the 200, another world record.
To beat both the 100 and 200 meter world records in one week is pretty special.
Let's hope he doesn't get done for drugs immediately following this.
The 200m is rarely broken. It last stood for 12 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
Bilbo the 100 metres is just a straight sprint, the 200 metres requires endurance aswell. There is more likelyhood of the greatest 200m runner also being a 400m runner, i.e Michael Johnson, very rarely has the greatest 200m runner being a 100m runner. Only Carl Lewis, and Usain Bolt througn history have been the best at both. Linford Christie, Donovan Bailey, Maurice Green etc etc (Olympic champions at 100m) were never great 200m runners.
Hard to say whose achievement is bigger between Phelps and Bolt, but recovery time and many other factors allow a swimmer to do mumerous events. I bet you anything Bolt goes down a sthe story of this olympics more than Phelps does
At the end of the day, who would you sooner watch. If the truth is told its Bolt, why because He did something that inspires.
I think that's really a matter of subjective opinion though. Winning 8 Olympic Golds out of 8 events is every bit as inspiring imo, although Bolt did smash two world records which Phelps didn't do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Both acheivements are incredible imo.
If you mean that running is more inspiring than swimming though I don't really agree.
They are both demanding events, one to see who is the fastest on land, the other to see who is the fastest on water. One is not more inspiring than the other except in a subjective way depending on your own preference.
If anything I think Phelps is a victim of his own success. He has become so utterly dominant that people don't regard his truimph as a big deal, but really to defeat the best in the world in 8 seperate events in one Olympic games is pretty damn inspiring stuff.
Phelps is even more dominant in his sport than Bolt is in his, at least for now.
Nobody got within 1 hundreth of a second of Bolt ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboPhelps is even more dominant in his sport than Bolt is in his,Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Where ever you live rich or poor you can run its an International and Interational, Swimming isnt.
Considering the earth is 75% water I don't really understand that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Sure there arn't swimming pools and proper training coaches everywhere, but are there running tracks and proper coaches everywhere either?
It's actually more a genetic thing imo, blacks due to a higher percentage muscle than whites and more fast twitch fibres in their legs make better sprinters than whites, who with slightly higher bodyfat ratios and different body composition make for better swimmers.
I'm sure socialogical factors play a role but race and genetics are the biggest determining factors imo, although in todays politically correct world you arn't supposed to say so.
That was Phelp's worst result though ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HNobody got within 1 hundreth of a second of Bolt ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboPhelps is even more dominant in his sport than Bolt is in his,Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Nobody else came with 1 hundreth of a second of Phelps in the other 7 :p
Unfortunately I came upon the result early. Saw his semi final though. I love sprinting, love everything about it. I thought the 100m would be a bit anticlimactic because of Gay but it turned out better then ever.
The 200m I haven't seen the time yet just know that the WR was broken and he had the thing won at the turn. It's not all down to genetics either Bilbo, saying that is basically the equivalent of saying swimming is all down to the technology they are using with the LRZ suits and everything. Also, there are plenty of white American runners but mainly in the middle distance races like the 400 and 800 though there are also a lot in the 70m including some of the world's best right there in Britain like Craig Pickering.
Bolt isn't a case of genetics. So many have said him being 6'5 is an advantage and even one guy I read who said that Bolt is the future of sprinting and soon all our sprinters will be massively tall. It's just not true though, it's just the case of Bolt being a freak.
I'll do my best to explain some of this. Basically, the key to running is the point of impact. The point of impact is where your lead foot hits the ground in front of you. Now for about 99.9999% of us, it would be better to be shorter, stronger and more explosive because then you don't have to much catching up to do with your lead foot, it never gets to far in front of you and you can explode and get greater turnover, the time it takes to make 1 stride, then a long legged runner. You want to spend as little time behind your lead foot as possible until the next foot hits the ground. That's why shorter guys have the advantage because most of their stride is spent exploding forward off that foot instead of behind it.
What makes Bolt such a freak of nature is just his speed, and not just his footspeed but how fast he catches up to that foot. For a taller runner, more of their time is spent behind that point of impact because it just naturally takes them longer to catch up, Bolt is not only catching up to the point of impact faster then other tall sprinters, he's doing faster then any of the more traditionally built ones either. I can't begin to explain how unprecedented this is. He's getting a greater turnover, thus a greater speed, with a 6'5 body then the guys who are 5'11 and instead of taking 45-47 strides to complete the 100, he's doing it in 40. It's not unheard of for someone of his size to complete 100m in 40 strides, but usually that difference is made up by competitors with greater turnover speed. Bolt is 1 upping them in that department.
There might not ever be another athlete quite like Bolt, what he's doing doesn't just defy the track but it defies all human logic. I don't care if he's drinking THG by the drum (he's never tested for anything and I really don't think he will, guys with his build usually steer clear of that stuff) what he's doing is absolutely off the charts. That's what I mean by more dominant, not decorated but going into these games, it was conceivable that Phelps would win 8. Not expected, but Spitz won 7 so it's not to far fetched. Now I don't know the science of swimming, I know he has an unconventional freestyle stroke and that's about it, but Bolt is defying science and what it says is possible.
Bolt, imo, is the baddest man on the planet right now. For the past few years I've thought of Lebron James as the most electrifying athlete in the world, I'm going to have to put Bolt in that spot now. And like James, he can still improve. His form out of the blocks is pretty much all wrong, he doesn't have great reaction time and I've heard it said that he has to high of a knee lift but I wouldn't mess with his stride for anything. Ridiculous what he's doing, he's competing against himself right now.
Bolt was crazy fast man...
But still I think Phelps accomplishments are far and beyond anyone has ever done at the Olympics.
Theres a reason why the Athletic Stadium is by far the Biggest.
The World Record for the 200 metre sprint was broken twice in the same day. First by Usain Bolt, then by twenty odd Spanish plane passengers.
Because pools are far smaller then tracks. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
;D
I agree, over all Bolt is more remarkable because of the science of his build.. He is like a 5 ft tall guy dunking over Shaquile O Neal it just dosent seem humanly possible and to do so in such a dominating fashion is mind boggling... The guy is a juggernaut, and the amazing thing about his 100m time is that its not the event he trains in or specialized in... It was no suprise that Phelps would do what he did, but Bolt is an absolute phenom... If he didnt showboat at the 70m mark he would have shattered the record even more...
We use the word OWN very loosely but Bolt owned the track he smoked them lie Tua did to Ruiz;D
Well if were going with Bolts height...
Phelps suffers from ADD and as a child he was in special needs classes her mother was told by teachers that he wouldn't accomplish much in life...
8 out of 8 medals gold and 14 overall.
I'm willing to bet everything I own that no one will ever even come close to that.
I'm not disputing the greatness of Michael Phelps, I'm lauding the sheer amazement of Bolt.. To many observers it was a forgone conclusion that Phelps would accompolish what he did, were Bolt took an opportunity to shine on the biggest stage and snatch an amazing human speed record defying science and nature while doing so... Bolt had already broken the record months earlier but it was also touted as a possible fluke of sorts, were as he literally smoked the field breaking a timeless and rich in tradition record of the most earliest and basic form of Competion with a leg race..:o
Did you see Johnsons reaction when Bolt broke his record?Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Shit was funny...
[quote=Bilbo;584731
I think that's really a matter of subjective opinion though. Winning 8 Olympic Golds out of 8 events is every bit as inspiring imo, although Bolt did smash two world records which Phelps didn't do.
Both acheivements are incredible imo.
[/quote]
I think Phelps actually broke 8 world records during the Olympics !
It was 7 world records Phelps had I believe but I don't know whether to take those with a grain of salt or not because ever since this LRZ racer suit came out like 100 world records have fallen in the pool. And not a single one of those records was as meaningful as the 100m and as untouchable as the 200m.
i say bolt doesn't even come close to phelps.. he is simply 2/8's of phelps accomplishments..
amat, you have summed up how sprinting is more than just running in a straight line, but you may be forgetting how tiring and straining swimming is.. i'd consider myself in pretty good shape, prob 7-8% body fat, and i run just about every day, and when i go to my campus's pool.. if i do one lap at almost full speed i am breathing real heavy.. Swimming is much more physically demanding than running, simply because it involves the whole body, and also water is far more resistant than air.. FAR more..
when you compare bolt to the other runners and saying that he was so far ahead of them and such, phelps was the same way.. regardless of genetics.
to diminish anything phelps has done, because a sprinter won the 100m and 200m convincingly is silly.. At the same time, i cannot praise bolt anymore for his feat, but he would have to win 4-5 more races individually, and then run in some relay races to come close to phelps..
[quote=X;585183]You beat me to it I just checked and in all 8 events he participated in new records were set.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo;584731
I think that's really a matter of subjective opinion though. Winning 8 Olympic Golds out of 8 events is every bit as inspiring imo, although Bolt did smash two world records which Phelps didn't do.
Both acheivements are incredible imo.
[/quote
[quote=CutMeMick;585189]i believe 7 of 8 were world records.. his 7th of 8 race may have only been an olympic record..Quote:
Originally Posted by X
I think 1 thing we can all agree on here is that swimming if by far the best type of excersize that you can do that we know. I'm sure amat knows that too. I think amat was trying to state his case as to why he feels running is also a tough excersize to do...
[quote=X;585183]Wow didn't realise, then there really is no contest, Phelps is the man of the Olympics in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo;584731
I think that's really a matter of subjective opinion though. Winning 8 Olympic Golds out of 8 events is every bit as inspiring imo, although Bolt did smash two world records which Phelps didn't do.
Both acheivements are incredible imo.
[/quote
I don't know anything about the suit that Amat talks about but I really don't see how anyone can discredit Phelp's achievements based on the trunks used any more than you can discredit Bolt because of the trainers he wore? :confused:
And what about sports like cycling, sailing, rowing etc, doesn't the equipment they use get improved over time?
Improvements are sought in every field I'm sure, training, nutrition, equipment, clothing, these wll be constantly improved in every single discipline so I'm sure the suit makes no difference.
It's not like he had flippers on and a fin on his back :rolleyes:
I'm not diminishing what Phelps did at all. It was 7 world records btw. I'm not saying swimming isn't difficult or anything like that, all I'm saying is that Bolt's triumphs have been more eye opening then Phelps 8 golds. Granted, 8 golds is something that will never be accomplished or topped for a long time if ever. But how many other sports can you compete in and get 8 medals? 0. It's swimming and that's it so to use the numerical argument is a bit silly imo.
Every record Phelps broke had been broken in the past year. The 200m was a record most thought would stand our entire lives, that no human being would ever be able to top that. Bolt did and he made one of the most hallowed records in sports, the 100m time an absolute wash. I made this post after that. I wasn't even sure he could get the 200m record, knew he was capable but the glow around that record is really tough to beat and he did it.
I'm not simplifying Phelps' effort as just going down to his suit, but the suit does have a lot to do with the world records. It is a revolutionary suit that creates 0 friction in the water. Swimmers not using the suit were at such a disadvantage in the qualifiers and trials that before the Olympics Nike allowed all it's swimmers to not sport Nike in the Olympics but instead Speedo. Now obviously it's a level playing field since nearly every swimmer was using it and Phelps still won, but the suit has a lot to do with the world records that fell. I forget the exact number but almost every single gold medalist in the swimming events this year got the world record as well.
I'm not diminishing either, in fact the argument is fairly trivial because one is on land and one is on water. But at the very least they have to be acknowledged as equally dominant and to say Bolt has only accomplished 2/8 of what Phelps did is pretty absurd. Michael Johnson is every bit the Olympics legend as Mark Spitz and both guys got pretty much surpassed in Beijing though Spitz won the 100 freestyle which apparently is supposed to determine the world's fastest swimmer and Johnson still has the 400 record.
Scott Ostler wrote a very good article in the SF Chronicle today about the Phelps vs Bolt argument. I really recommend reading it.
Phelps now has company as the Games' poster guy
Also, Bolt has the 2 most dominant performances of these games under his belt in 2 of the top 5 marquee events. That has to account for something