I'm voting NDP (all the Canadians will know what that means) :eek:.
Fucking education. I knew it would ruin me.
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I'm voting NDP (all the Canadians will know what that means) :eek:.
Fucking education. I knew it would ruin me.
Well you had everything stacked against you...you're in Canada, weed is basically legal there.
Just as an aside, I'm fairly liberal on education myself (yeah I'm a college grad and preparing to go to Law School)...I don't agree AT ALL with "No Child Left Behind". I think teachers should be paid more (especially the good ones) and their jobs should be achievement oriented and if they do poorly for a couple years you should be able to fire them without getting teacher's unions on your ass.
I'm moving in the opposite direction as I get older. More and more conservative all the time. I used to be fairly Liberal, not anymore.
I'm a cranky old bastard!LOL
Im finding the same thing in myself. Having lived in a country where income tax is less than 10% for so long, I find myself questioning the sense in countries like the UK where the tax band is so high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
I still think Im pretty liberal but when it comes to issues like how much tax Im paying, then I suppose I have become much more self centred.
Roads dont build themselvesQuote:
Originally Posted by milesIm finding the same thing in myself. Having lived in a country where income tax is less than 10% for so long, I find myself questioning the sense in countries like the UK where the tax band is so high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
I still think Im pretty liberal but when it comes to issues like how much tax Im paying, then I suppose I have become much more self centred.
We all do better when we all do better
Now I dont really like paying for stupid wars,tax breaks for rich people,intrest on national debt.
But I think I can pony for the greater public intrest,Ive certainly benefited from it,every time I fire up my Jeep
I agree to an extent. Infratructure and the like is fundamental. But Korea has good roads, services and pretty much everybody is covered with health insurance. I cannot complain about those aspects of life here and all with a relatively low tax rate. There is too much bureaucracy in Western governments. And probably too much welfare, especially in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyRoads dont build themselvesQuote:
Originally Posted by milesIm finding the same thing in myself. Having lived in a country where income tax is less than 10% for so long, I find myself questioning the sense in countries like the UK where the tax band is so high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
I still think Im pretty liberal but when it comes to issues like how much tax Im paying, then I suppose I have become much more self centred.
We all do better when we all do better
Now I dont really like paying for stupid wars,tax breaks for rich people,intrest on national debt.
But I think I can pony for the greater public intrest,Ive certainly benefited from it,every time I fire up my Jeep
You dont see too many single mothers in Korea. And Im quite sure thats one reason my tax is so low. :-\
Odd that people allways bitch about "single mom's" but rarely have quite so much fury reserved for "dead beat dad's"Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI agree to an extent. Infratructure and the like is fundamental. But Korea has good roads, services and pretty much everybody is covered with health insurance. I cannot complain about those aspects of life here and all with a relatively low tax rate. There is too much bureaucracy in Western governments. And probably too much welfare, especially in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyRoads dont build themselvesQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
We all do better when we all do better
Now I dont really like paying for stupid wars,tax breaks for rich people,intrest on national debt.
But I think I can pony for the greater public intrest,Ive certainly benefited from it,every time I fire up my Jeep
You dont see too many single mothers in Korea. And Im quite sure thats one reason my tax is so low. :-\
Anybody who becomes a parent should take responsibility. Dad's especially so. Its a travesty they so often dont. I dont know about life in the US but I do know the UK has become a bit of a farce with the number of children being supported by welfare, and absent or lazy Dad's don't help a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyOdd that people allways bitch about "single mom's" but rarely have quite so much fury reserved for "dead beat dad's"Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI agree to an extent. Infratructure and the like is fundamental. But Korea has good roads, services and pretty much everybody is covered with health insurance. I cannot complain about those aspects of life here and all with a relatively low tax rate. There is too much bureaucracy in Western governments. And probably too much welfare, especially in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
You dont see too many single mothers in Korea. And Im quite sure thats one reason my tax is so low. :-\
I dont feel comfortable subsidising that through my taxes. I would like to have a child of my own someday and pay for its upbringing myself. Not paying extortionate tax rates for the benefits of all others to become parents might help facilitate that.
The concept of self responsibility is perhaps where I have become more right wing as the years have gone on.
Generally I am still left wing though. I believe in Unions, universal health care, decent pension coverage (for those that work hard). But I do think welfare can go too far.
Not in the statesQuote:
Originally Posted by milesAnybody who becomes a parent should take responsibility. Dad's especially so. Its a travesty they so often dont. I dont know about life in the US but I do know the UK has become a bit of a farce with the number of children being supported by welfare, and absent or lazy Dad's don't help a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyOdd that people allways bitch about "single mom's" but rarely have quite so much fury reserved for "dead beat dad's"Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I dont feel comfortable subsidising that through my taxes. I would like to have a child of my own someday and pay for its upbringing myself. Not paying extortionate tax rates for the benefits of all others to become parents might help facilitate that.
The concept of self responsibility is perhaps where I have become more right wing as the years have gone on.
Generally I am still left wing though. I believe in Unions, universal health care, decent pension coverage (for those that work hard). But I do think welfare can go too far.
We've gutted the whole system,if your ass is hoping for welfare,your major league screwed blued and tattooed
We've cut enforcement to go after dead beat dads for child support,we've cut LIHEAP,we've cut CHIPS,and if you are a single mom on welfare,we'll force you to neglect your child and get a job that doesnt pay as much as welfare,which pays dirt all.
Welfare reform,can get seriously mean spirited,and we're the shining example of it
But if you want us to blow some stuff up,no problem,helping people is too expensive,killing them is okey dokey
That was my perception of how the US has gone. I could never get as right wing as to ever suggest the Republicans should ever get in. America needs change and things are never going to change for the better under McCain. America is at a scary place, and change is better than no change now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyNot in the statesQuote:
Originally Posted by milesAnybody who becomes a parent should take responsibility. Dad's especially so. Its a travesty they so often dont. I dont know about life in the US but I do know the UK has become a bit of a farce with the number of children being supported by welfare, and absent or lazy Dad's don't help a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I dont feel comfortable subsidising that through my taxes. I would like to have a child of my own someday and pay for its upbringing myself. Not paying extortionate tax rates for the benefits of all others to become parents might help facilitate that.
The concept of self responsibility is perhaps where I have become more right wing as the years have gone on.
Generally I am still left wing though. I believe in Unions, universal health care, decent pension coverage (for those that work hard). But I do think welfare can go too far.
We've gutted the whole system,if your ass is hoping for welfare,your major league screwed blued and tattooed
We've cut enforcement to go after dead beat dads for child support,we've cut LIHEAP,we've cut CHIPS,and if you are a single mom on welfare,we'll force you to neglect your child and get a job that doesnt pay as much as welfare,which pays dirt all.
Welfare reform,can get seriously mean spirited,and we're the shining example of it
But if you want us to blow some stuff up,no problem,helping people is too expensive,killing them is okey dokey
As Winston Churchill is often quoted, "If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain".Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
I'm still not convinced the quote is Churchill's though...
Politics is the art of bullshit and getting away with it. Churchill was right on the money, a typical politician and not a man to be trusted by any means.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHAs Winston Churchill is often quoted, "If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain".Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanrw
I'm still not convinced the quote is Churchill's though...
The States are WAY different then when I was a kid,and its gotten mean. It used to be,you just didnt go in "those neighborhoods" now we pretend they just dont exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesThat was my perception of how the US has gone. I could never get as right wing as to ever suggest the Republicans should ever get in. America needs change and things are never going to change for the better under McCain. America is at a scary place, and change is better than no change now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyNot in the statesQuote:
Originally Posted by miles
We've gutted the whole system,if your ass is hoping for welfare,your major league screwed blued and tattooed
We've cut enforcement to go after dead beat dads for child support,we've cut LIHEAP,we've cut CHIPS,and if you are a single mom on welfare,we'll force you to neglect your child and get a job that doesnt pay as much as welfare,which pays dirt all.
Welfare reform,can get seriously mean spirited,and we're the shining example of it
But if you want us to blow some stuff up,no problem,helping people is too expensive,killing them is okey dokey
And one thing I freaking loathe is people in this country who go on about how poor they grew up,and then when you ask them,"Did your family ever take welfare" and they awnser"Yeah we were poor"
And then you find yourself thinking,"But you want to cut it to the bone for other people?". I got mine and screw you,WELCOME TO AMERICA
Yes there IS too much bureaucracy in western governments. And there is no PROBABLY about it there is WAAAAAAY too much welfare ESPECIALLY in places like England and Canada!Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
As for single mothers....when the government isn't picking up the tab it's not the greatest life choice to keep popping out little bastard kids.
Trainer you're playing revisionist history if you think Americans ever liked it when people got something for nothing ESPECIALLY if it was a person of a different ethnicity....watch Gangs of New York again, it has ALWAYS been like this.
Since you used a work of fiction,Ill use groundbreaking opinion piece from the time "The Other America"Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleYes there IS too much bureaucracy in western governments. And there is no PROBABLY about it there is WAAAAAAY too much welfare ESPECIALLY in places like England and Canada!Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
As for single mothers....when the government isn't picking up the tab it's not the greatest life choice to keep popping out little bastard kids.
Trainer you're playing revisionist history if you think Americans ever liked it when people got something for nothing ESPECIALLY if it was a person of a different ethnicity....watch Gangs of New York again, it has ALWAYS been like this.
Or would you prefer Upton Sinclairs "The Jungle"
The "Auotbiography of Mother Jones"?
Sorry Lyle,your historically inaccurate,and historically ignorant
Now if you care to bitch about Welfare Moms,complain about the tax abatements Mercedes Benz got to open a plant in the states
It was significantly more costly
The Gangs of New York NONFICTION by Herbert Asbury...the movie yes was fiction but the backdrop of racial tension, draft riots, etc was 100% true.
Pork barrel spending and tax cuts to win over businesses happen all the time and have happened all the time...it's nothing new Trainer hell there is pork in the bailout bill they just passed. And please keep it up with the name calling I do appreciate it...almost as much as I appreciate people complaining about their lives and blaming everyone else for their standing in life.
Part of the back drop was lassiez faire economics,which is what is being pushed by the current Republican PartyQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
So you may wish to re-think your ringing endorsement,because regardless of wether you think its fiction or fact,it says bluntly that when the wealthy get what they want crime and lawlessness become wanton.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of republican politics
I love CAPITALISM, that's all I have to tell you...if you want to call it lassiez faire if you want. If you have trouble with it move to China
I love equitable treatment for equal work,your version have capatilism has led to 6 recessions and the great DepressionQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Why dont you move to China?
Define EQUAL TrainerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Ford the 2nd to a union leader when Ford installed robots:Id like to see your boys do thatQuote:
Originally Posted by LyleDefine EQUAL TrainerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Union Leader:Id like to see one of your robots buy a Ford
Somebody has to build the robots, someone also has to maintain those robots, and it's the UAW's own fucking fault they get laid off or replaced....WHY?!?!?! Their peach of a benefits package may have something to do with it.
Unions are no good anymore, all they do is keep unfit workers in jobs they don't deserve. We have a Department of Labor for a reason
Horse-SQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
100% toady to the man horse
And if you had even the slightest understanding of the real history of this country,youd understand how laughable that point of view is.
And by the way Ronald"Your Hero"Reagan was head of the Actors union,he rolled over to Joe McCarthey and made up names to get a cushy gig doing the GE Home Theater show
You don't know jack shit about your own country, so I'm going to assume you don't know anything about mine either.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleYes there IS too much bureaucracy in western governments. And there is no PROBABLY about it there is WAAAAAAY too much welfare ESPECIALLY in places like England and Canada!Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
As for single mothers....when the government isn't picking up the tab it's not the greatest life choice to keep popping out little bastard kids.
Trainer you're playing revisionist history if you think Americans ever liked it when people got something for nothing ESPECIALLY if it was a person of a different ethnicity....watch Gangs of New York again, it has ALWAYS been like this.
The amount of welfare distributed in Canada is a fraction of what your joke of a government has spent on an internationally condemned illegal war in Iraq which has resulted in the maiming and deaths of tens of thousands of people, each of whom has the same value as yourself.
Canada has a fraction of the people of the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Oooh the war in Iraq has offended Canada alert the media ;D
We do have less people than the US. Very astute. You said we spend "too much" money on welfare, that statement made no qualifications about population size.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleCanada has a fraction of the people of the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Oooh the war in Iraq has offended Canada alert the media ;D
The Iraq war has not offended Canada, it has however almost universally disgusted anyone with a brain worldwide, it has also resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people,
One could even make the assertion that the thousands of American soldiers coming home in body bags and the tens of thousands coming home without limbs and faces are more deserving of their lot than the innocent Iraqi's who have died, considering those same soldiers freely (economics and governmental propaganda aside) signed on to enforce the will of the people they are representing, the same people who started this war without any legitimate cause.
Have you ever considered how shameful this war is to the memory of those who died on 9/11?
Have you considered we were going to Iraq anyway 9/11 or no 9/11? Have you considered that Saddam could have just followed the treaty of the Persian Gulf War? Have you considered that even as botched as this war has been that it is admirable that the US decided to stay and fix what we broke and not leave the aforementioned "poor Iraqi civilians" to be brutalized by whatever tough guy would have taken over?
I'll argue with people all fucking day about Iraq it doesn't matter how we got there (mainly because nobody can change that) it matters that we are there now and it matters what we do there right now. But that's apparently too much for the anti-war people to handle at this point in time....oh let's sit down and have a finger pointing session while Iraq is in a state of anarchy....oh splendid.
Doesn't it matter that this mess gets cleaned up? Oh no I'm sorry what was I thinking we just have to find people to blame and everything will fix itself....that's the way of the world.
CFH, Canada is a joke. I've lived in both countries. I'll take the inner city gettos of USA over the canadian gov't handing out my tax dollars to lazy fucks who can do anythin they want and still get paid any day.
Canada is so fuckign socialized it makes me sick. The poor suck you and I dry.. 95% of them are there b'c they're lazy. It sucks down the middle class bigtime.
I DO know both countries, but choose not to get involved in this shit.
It may be now, but it wasn't 7 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWe do have less people than the US. Very astute. You said we spend "too much" money on welfare, that statement made no qualifications about population size.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleCanada has a fraction of the people of the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Oooh the war in Iraq has offended Canada alert the media ;D
The Iraq war has not offended Canada, it has however almost universally disgusted anyone with a brain worldwide, it has also resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people,
One could even make the assertion that the thousands of American soldiers coming home in body bags and the tens of thousands coming home without limbs and faces are more deserving of their lot than the innocent Iraqi's who have died, considering those same soldiers freely (economics and governmental propaganda aside) signed on to enforce the will of the people they are representing, the same people who started this war without any legitimate cause.
Have you ever considered how shameful this war is to the memory of those who died on 9/11?
Going there for any reason was wrong. Manipulating the emotion of 9/11 and the general ignorance of the populace was a brilliant move, it was also morally indefensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
It DOES matter how you got there. Saying it doesn't matter absolves anyone of being guilty. Just because it makes you look/feel badly or guilty or whatever, it does fucking matter. It sure as shit matters to all those who have died. I've never heard anyone say "Well, it doesn't matter why WW2 started."
So because Saddam didn't follow the rules imposed on him (it was as much a treaty as the Versailles "treaty"), that gives the American's the right to invade, kill tens of thousands of people, and somehow manage, through an enormous cluster-fuck of errors that would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic, to make the country the most dangerous place on earth. The Iraqi's were exponentially better off under Sadam, how incredibly fucked up is that?? The U.S. is absolutely no different from the fiction "random Tough Guy" boogeman you speak of.
It's not admirable that you stay their either, there's nothing admirable about it. You made the mess, there is nothing admirable about cleaning it up. What a fucking pathetic rationalization. You're the biggest idiot I have ever known if you believe that bullshit (and I know you don't). Though it is very considerate of you guys to wash up all the blood. I'm sure the Iraqi's are very greatful. And when one of them or their sympathizers perpetrates a crime against the U.S. that makes 9/11 look like the goddamn Teddy Bears picnic you keep spouting your bullshit excuses for what you've done.
Of course it matters how you got involved in Iraq. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
The war was started on a foundation of misinformation, lies and a complete lack of legitimacy. Then there is Guantanamo bay and the lack of respect regarding human rights. And now the economy is imploding, undoubtably the costly wars havent helped too much. Afghanistan even appears to be deteriorating. And a national debt your grandchildren will most likely be subsidising as a result of it all.
Its fucked up, and you show yourself up trying to defend or excuse that kind of nonsense.
Have you ever lived in an inner city ghetto?Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Milash
I've also lived in both countries, though I was a kid when I lived in the States, and while neither are perfect I'll pick Canada all day over the US.
So you're saying that you'd rather have people starving, committing crimes in order to get by etc. then have higher taxes. Fair enough, that's your opinion, but I do not agree with it.
There is more to life than money, despite what some people will have you believe.
miles it doesn't change the fact that we're there....do you get where I'm coming from?
And even if there were never any WMDs or anything like that all Saddam had to do was play ball and everything would have been fine but nooooo Saddam had to be a big shot and try to show us up and we called his bluff and now he's dead and we're well within our rights to call someone out on a treaty they agreed to or else the whole idea of signing a treaty is bogus.
Had someone done that with Germany a while back then well let's just say a lot of shit could have been avoided
Yes it was. That makes zero sense. Just because a large number of people were too blinded by rage and a thirst for revenge to see what was happening doesn't mean it was not a shame. The government used the names of people who were murdered to perpetrate more killing against other innocent people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Von MilashIt may be now, but it wasn't 7 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWe do have less people than the US. Very astute. You said we spend "too much" money on welfare, that statement made no qualifications about population size.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
The Iraq war has not offended Canada, it has however almost universally disgusted anyone with a brain worldwide, it has also resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people,
One could even make the assertion that the thousands of American soldiers coming home in body bags and the tens of thousands coming home without limbs and faces are more deserving of their lot than the innocent Iraqi's who have died, considering those same soldiers freely (economics and governmental propaganda aside) signed on to enforce the will of the people they are representing, the same people who started this war without any legitimate cause.
Have you ever considered how shameful this war is to the memory of those who died on 9/11?
Did you just compare Iraq to Nazi Germany? Jesus fucking Christ. The power and actions of those two nations are nowhere near comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I'd much rather just have people willing to work to make money rather than pop out children and have my tax dollars go to feeding those leeches......those welfare breeders ought to be fixed after their first litter....and yes I have seen how bad the situation is hense the demeaning nature of my response. Before you get all up in arms YES I do understand some people need and deserve welfare however you must also understand that a LARGE portion of welfare recipiants are lazy worthless scum of the earth people, go to South Carolina I am sure you'll see some there and any of our members who live down there will agree with me.
Did Germany invade it's neighboring countries? Did Iraq (anyone recall Kuwait?) ??? Well then seems to me that they were KIND OF similar only Iraq's armed forces totally suck and America's have gotten hella better. It was a similar situation and a relevant case to cite something that could have happened if no action was taken.
Well I'm just happy our conscience to the north is so worried about us...it's good to know you care, you're Canada everyone loves you and why is that??? No one expects anything from you
There were no WMDs. The war was built on false premises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Comparing it to Nazi Germany is way off too. The Germans were a obviously a threat with a heap of military build up and a worrying tendency to keep trying to expand their borders. A hugely powerful country. Iraq was feeble and hadnt actually done anything to provoke the latest war. Except for these WMD's that didnt actually exist.
I agree with you that the US is now entrenched in Iraq. But the reasons they are still there are because there was no coherent plan in the first place. And like I said, Afghanistan is only deteriorating, and that was the primary target in response to the so called "terror threat". Iraq has nothing to do with that.
Anybody wanting a perpetuation of this administration must be out of their minds. You seem to be somewhat myopic when it comes to politics, Lyle. You will always defend your ideology no matter the moral vacuousness that sometimes entails. A lot of what has happened under this administration has been inhumane and fundamentally dishonest, and yet you continue to make excuses for what is very serious and basically wrong.
Though a bit strong for my liking, I do agree with some of your views in the first paragraph. Too much welfare is not a healthy thing. I think everybody deserves health care coverage provided by the state. But I do think ultimately people should work hard and pay to support themselves. Too many people looking for easy way outs and something for nothing. They need their hands slapping away and good lecture on the values of going out and getting a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
You're either completely ignorant or just playing devil's advocate, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Have you ever met anyone who said their goal in life is to leech of the system? Do you have any idea how degrading it must be to exist like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Very few people on welfare are abusing the system, though some do exist. However, it doesn't make much sense to disband the police because of some rogue cops because the positive outweights the negative in terms of public well-being and it's the same with welfare. I understand the poor are an easy scapegoat, it's been that way forever (when the Jews weren't available anyway). However, a fraction of government spending (in any country) goes towards welfare, and the VAST majority of people who accept welfare are on it for less than a year.
I've been to some of the most poverty stricken places you can imagine. The people are not worthless, lazy, scum. They are poor. People do not begin life with an even playing field.
A large portion of welfare reciepients are not lazy, worthless, scum of the earth people. Believe or not, they're just like you and I.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Then I guess America is the same as Nazi Germany considering they have repeatedly invaded other sovereign nations without provocation. Glad you cleared that up for me. They've also instituted genocidal campaigns based on race though, so maybe there are some similarities there.
It was not a similar case. There are very few similarities that are not completely superficial. Prior to the First Gulf War Iraq has accumulated its military power thanks in large part to the US. After the first Gulf War, they were basically unable to defend their own territory, let alone pose a threat to other nations in the region.
If you keep making arguments like that you're going to be a godawful lawyer. Hell, you might even end up on welfare.
This has nothing to do with Canada, or any of the other nations which disagree with you. Plenty of Americans feel the same way. It has nothing to do with nationality, it has to do with right and wrong. Good try though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Was Saddam do what he was supposed to? He did gas people before and refusing to give weapons inspectors a free pass sealed his fate...simple as that.
Listen miles, I don't like W, I am not defending his reasons for going to war I'm merely saying it's possible we were already on track to fight with Iraq anyway and after 9/11 just gave us the green light to do it.....Clinton was talking about military action vs Iraq before he left office....the only thing was W tried to take over the entire country(bad idea) with too few troops and no knowledge of the cultures there.
In the end there is a reason that is justafiable for military action vs Iraq...is wasn't the one they used but hey we could have just said "We don't like the way they are looking at us" it doesn't really change things too much at this point
Where's the outrage about LBJ?!?!?! That war was a TON more costly in lives and casualties but nobody ever mentions how bogus the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was. Or how about the Bay of Pigs??? Oh that was BRILLIANT but nooo we just won't talk abotu that because if we did then we couldn't pretend to be as shocked as we are about Iraq.
I'm not vacuous I'm just making a different point which IS valid, and I'm not saying there were WMD's obviously there weren't but hey the threat was there and Saddam didn't do his job to stop us which would have been nonviolent, peaceful, and maybe have built a bridge of trust between us after all we put him in power there