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Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Ok, what we learned tonight is that Pavlik should get the hell back to 160 and not move from there until he is at least 30. He showed signs that his power wasn't great moving up at 166 against Taylor - now we know for sure, 160 is where he is best suited.
We also learned (if we didn't already know) that Hopkins is a freak of nature, impossible to hit and one of the smartest fighters that ever lived. I don't like him but he is so good at everything he does that he is impossible not to respect. Hats off to you 'Nard - you are an all-time great.
Finally, I think that Bob Arum needs his head read for taking a fight with Bernard Hopkins at 170lbs. Hopkins is a nightmare for anybody but for a basic one-two fighter like Kelly Pavlik he was always going to be a handful. Even Kelly wins it would have been a scrappy, close decision (a la Calzaghe) in which he wouldn't look good and wouldn't gain much. Or what happens tonight happened - Kelly is defeated convincingly and his marquee value and aura of invincibility is damaged heavily. Hope the $3 million was worth it Bob.
Bad, bad matchup at 170 IMO.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Fuck that, Pavlik weighed in on fight night like 3 or 4 pounds more than he normally does, they made sure that he wouldn't be much different than his middleweight self, Bernard Hopkins, who even though he weighed more did use that to win this fight, he used speed, timing, and Pavlik's flaws to win it.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
I guess Miranda was hype and Pavlik is a bad style for Taylor. Pavlik looked dire real dire any big name at 168 would ruin him. He is also very chinny.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
I guess Miranda was hype and Pavlik is a bad style for Taylor. Pavlik looked dire real dire any big name at 168 would ruin him. He is also very chinny.
How is pavlik chinny he took hard shots frm bhop. calzaghe went down frm 1 right hand.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kingfrnk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
I guess Miranda was hype and Pavlik is a bad style for Taylor. Pavlik looked dire real dire any big name at 168 would ruin him. He is also very chinny.
How is pavlik chinny he took hard shots frm bhop. calzaghe went down frm 1 right hand.
He is chinny, he did a little dance at one stage, Calzaghe went down, was he in any trouble whatsoever form that knockdown?
Fanboys like you are not good for the game, Kessler and Bute would outclass Your boy like i always said, hes basic fighter with no great movement, i just love some americans they slate Calzaghe to the hills and back for being the most over rated boxer ever, then do exactly the same about Pavlik who has beat one world champion. Priceless!!
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Bloody hell! Calzaghe was caught off balance.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
You guys are backing me up here - Pavlik would lose to anybody at 168. I agree.
That's why he should be fighting at 160, no higher.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
i think people are over looking the fact pavlik lost coz he got beaten by hopkins rather then that pavlik had a bad night at a bad weight................. hopkins did everything he said he would.....and never allowed pavlik a chance to do what he was saying he'd do
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Fuck that, Pavlik weighed in on fight night like 3 or 4 pounds more than he normally does, they made sure that he wouldn't be much different than his middleweight self, Bernard Hopkins, who even though he weighed more did use that to win this fight, he used speed, timing, and Pavlik's flaws to win it.
Agreed....Pavlik as much as I like the guy is based really on the KO's of Miranda and wins over Taylor...This is why I made the "How do you make a P4P list"...People tend to over state a guy because he has a few good wins...That is not mean to detract anything from Kelly do not get me wrong he is a good fighter who nis still developing but his team put too much stock into his power.....A mistake that has happened too often in the past...
Like I said last night..It was a good fighter facing a great one
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Bob Arum and co thought it would be OK to pitch Pavlik in with Hopkins as they thought he doesn't use his weight against his opponents as much as some fighters do. Didn't matter thou, Hopkins beat him with speed and power.
To give Arum his due Hopkins wasn't the first pick for Pavlik. I'm sure I read that he was about 9th choice, he was short of options for any decent (and well paid) match-up.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
All it proves is that Kelly needs a different fight plan at 168, he's going to have to get a little quicker with his hands, move a little better, and learn to be more of a pure boxer because the guys are 168 are very strong and Kelly won't be able to bully as many guys at 168 (and even fewer at 175) as he would at 160.
If Kelly is a great fighter, he'll learn, and he'll adapt...if he's just a good fighter he'll continue on at 160 and move up when 168 has gotten a little less depth.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skel1983
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kingfrnk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
I guess Miranda was hype and Pavlik is a bad style for Taylor. Pavlik looked dire real dire any big name at 168 would ruin him. He is also very chinny.
How is pavlik chinny he took hard shots frm bhop. calzaghe went down frm 1 right hand.
He is chinny, he did a little dance at one stage, Calzaghe went down, was he in any trouble whatsoever form that knockdown?
Fanboys like you are not good for the game, Kessler and Bute would outclass Your boy like i always said, hes basic fighter with no great movement, i just love some americans they slate Calzaghe to the hills and back for being the most over rated boxer ever, then do exactly the same about Pavlik who has beat one world champion. Priceless!!
Joe Calzaghe also looked like going down twice against Bernard Hopkins, at the end of the 4th round i believe. When he was stunned by right two right hands from Bernard Hopkins. And Joe Calzaghe has a solid chin so for Bernard Hopkins to put Joe Calzaghe down, and almost put him down for a second time.
Mean's that he can hurt top class fighters with one punch, i don't think Kelly Pavlik looked close to going down. His legs did go to jelly about 3 times but he never looked in any danger of going down, Kelly Pavlik's chin isn't as good as Joe Calzaghe's but i don't think his chin is as bad as your saying either. And he has excellent recovery powers aswell IMO.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skel1983
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kingfrnk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
I guess Miranda was hype and Pavlik is a bad style for Taylor. Pavlik looked dire real dire any big name at 168 would ruin him. He is also very chinny.
How is pavlik chinny he took hard shots frm bhop. calzaghe went down frm 1 right hand.
He is chinny, he did a little dance at one stage, Calzaghe went down, was he in any trouble whatsoever form that knockdown?
Fanboys like you are not good for the game, Kessler and Bute would outclass Your boy like i always said, hes basic fighter with no great movement, i just love some americans they slate Calzaghe to the hills and back for being the most over rated boxer ever, then do exactly the same about Pavlik who has beat one world champion. Priceless!!
why am i a fanboy cause i like pavlik then that case alot guys here are fanboys u dumbass. and if pavlik was chinny how come he never went down? he hit pavlik more than he hit winky, tarver, and taylor and the only one that went down was tarver.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
I guess Miranda was hype and Pavlik is a bad style for Taylor. Pavlik looked dire real dire any big name at 168 would ruin him. He is also very chinny.
He has only lost one fight for fuck sake.
How can you say any big name at 168 would ruin him???
Hoplkins has proven that he can give anyody lots of problems.Pavliks style was made for Hopkins but against most other fighters around the weight Pavlik would win.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Off what I saw Kessler would knock Pavlik out. I would like to see that.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Tarver's glove touched the canvas didn't it. that's hardly what i call a knockdwon. Technically yes but not much of a knockdown. Tarver went off balance.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Pavlik couldn't cope with hopkins speed of body or hand movement. he did really well against taylor but couldn't even hit hopkins.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Fighters make this mistake over and over and over again. When you move up in weight, there's not a rule saying you have to put on extra weight!!!!!!
Pavlik should have trained just like he does for a 160 pound fight. He's never lost at that weight, why change anything?
I thought Pavlik would win the fight, but when I saw he weighed in at 169, that was a red flag to me.
This same issue will come up with Oscar-Pac. Manny should train exactly like he did for the Diaz fight at 135. If Manny weighs in at more than 137 or 138 pounds, that's a very bad sign IMO.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Fighters make this mistake over and over and over again. When you move up in weight, there's not a rule saying you have to put on extra weight!!!!!!
Pavlik should have trained just like he does for a 160 pound fight. He's never lost at that weight, why change anything?
I thought Pavlik would win the fight, but when I saw he weighed in at 169, that was a red flag to me.
This same issue will come up with Oscar-Pac. Manny should train exactly like he did for the Diaz fight at 135. If Manny weighs in at more than 137 or 138 pounds, that's a very bad sign IMO.
But do they have a max difference by which Pac has to meet? Y'know, like Pac can weigh no more less than 3 pounds under 147.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Killface
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Fighters make this mistake over and over and over again. When you move up in weight, there's not a rule saying you have to put on extra weight!!!!!!
Pavlik should have trained just like he does for a 160 pound fight. He's never lost at that weight, why change anything?
I thought Pavlik would win the fight, but when I saw he weighed in at 169, that was a red flag to me.
This same issue will come up with Oscar-Pac. Manny should train exactly like he did for the Diaz fight at 135. If Manny weighs in at more than 137 or 138 pounds, that's a very bad sign IMO.
But do they have a max difference by which Pac has to meet? Y'know, like Pac can weigh no more less than 3 pounds under 147.
Not to my knowledge. I've never heard of a minimum weight limit before, and I don't see why Pac/Arum would have ever agreed to anything of that nature. You can weigh in as light as you want.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
I don't think Pavlik could of handled Hopkins at any weight really.
Hopkins is simply a bad style match up for him.
Pavlik is most effective when he can bully, outwork and when his opponents are right there in front of him.
Hopkins is a big strong guy and i knew Pavlik wouldn't be able to bully him, I knew Hopkins lateral movement, defense, strength on the inside and accuracy would leave pavlik confused and frustrated. Hopkins power even slowed down Pavlik's workrate.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Killface
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Fighters make this mistake over and over and over again. When you move up in weight, there's not a rule saying you have to put on extra weight!!!!!!
Pavlik should have trained just like he does for a 160 pound fight. He's never lost at that weight, why change anything?
I thought Pavlik would win the fight, but when I saw he weighed in at 169, that was a red flag to me.
This same issue will come up with Oscar-Pac. Manny should train exactly like he did for the Diaz fight at 135. If Manny weighs in at more than 137 or 138 pounds, that's a very bad sign IMO.
But do they have a max difference by which Pac has to meet? Y'know, like Pac can weigh no more less than 3 pounds under 147.
Not to my knowledge. I've never heard of a minimum weight limit before, and I don't see why Pac/Arum would have ever agreed to anything of that nature. You can weigh in as light as you want.
Suppose Id never thought much about it before, but is that true in championship fights, that there is no minimum weight? I always just assumed that if you were fighting for the Welterweight championship you had to at least tip the scales at 140 or over. Is it just that I've never seen anyone weigh in a full weight division lower, and it would actually be acceptable?
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Killface
But do they have a max difference by which Pac has to meet? Y'know, like Pac can weigh no more less than 3 pounds under 147.
Not to my knowledge. I've never heard of a minimum weight limit before, and I don't see why Pac/Arum would have ever agreed to anything of that nature. You can weigh in as light as you want.
Suppose Id never thought much about it before, but is that true in championship fights, that there is no minimum weight? I always just assumed that if you were fighting for the Welterweight championship you had to at least tip the scales at 140 or over. Is it just that I've never seen anyone weigh in a full weight division lower, and it would actually be acceptable?
There is no minimum weight in any fight, title or non-title. Weight limits are weights that you cannot go over, there is no restriction on how light you can be. Manny could weigh 129 for the fight against Oscar if he felt like it. Roy Jones could have weighed 175 when he fought Ruiz if he had chosen to.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
The Max weight limit was 170lbs Pavlik weighed 169lbs but if he wanted to he could have come in at 160lbs or slightly heavier nobody made him come in at 169lbs that was his and his teams mistake. i think Hopkins would have beat him no matter how much he weighed im shocked a man of 6ft 2inch cant carry 169lbs well strange.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
One thing is for certain because of his problems fighting at 170 we won't see Pavlik in any match-ups discussed at super-middlweight (e.g. Kessler, Bute etc.) Pavlik will definitely stay at 160 for as long as possible. The only exciting fight out there at middleweight is against Abraham. Am I right?
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
One thing is for certain because of his problems fighting at 170 we won't see Pavlik in any match-ups discussed at super-middlweight (e.g. Kessler, Bute etc.) Pavlik will definitely stay at 160 for as long as possible. The only exciting fight out there at middleweight is against Abraham. Am I right?
No, I don't completely agree. Pavlik's problem wasn't that he was fighting above 160, Pavlik's problem was that he was in the ring with a defensive master who gave him all types of angles and confused the hell out of him.
If Pavlik were fighting a stationary 168 or 170 pounder who stood right in front of him, he could have success.
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greig
You guys are backing me up here - Pavlik would lose to anybody at 168. I agree.
That's why he should be fighting at 160, no higher.
Oh no, I agree!
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Re: Pavlik's weight/Bob Arum
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kingfrnk
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
I guess Miranda was hype and Pavlik is a bad style for Taylor. Pavlik looked dire real dire any big name at 168 would ruin him. He is also very chinny.
How is pavlik chinny he took hard shots frm bhop. calzaghe went down frm 1 right hand.
Each time Pavlik was hurt from B-hop he landed a bunch of shots. Whenever Calzaghe was hurt from Bernard, it was from one shot.
But for sake of a debate, Calzaghe getting knocked down was a fact. Kelly never hit the canvas having taken more shots from Bernard.
Pavlik took some of Hopkins' best shots, chinny isn't a good word.
