The Word Shot in relation to Jones is used way to loosely

so in most opinions Roy was deemed shot after the the Johnson KO.

A shot fighter by the way I understand it as a fighter showing drastic decline in what he once was able to do making it physically impossible to compete at the highest level he once could.

Not being able to pull the trigger

Plodding

Poor reflexes

Horrible stamina

pushing punches

lethargic like handspeed

ETC..

I said it all along, Jones biggest achilles heel since the Tarver and Johnson KO's has been confidence and adjusting to 175 again.. I dont want to get into the factual and scientific toll it takes on your body to slash 25lbs of muscle off your frame in such a short period of time

The point I want to make is between Jones ears, when you are the best boxer in the world everyday for over a decade putting on sublime performances, to one day getting sparked by your nemesis is gonna screw with you MENTALLY. Jones has never been shopworn in his career and besides 2 KO punches hasnt sustained signifigant damage..

This clip illustrates that Jones is still there PHYSICALLY, though he won only a few rounds of the 3rd Tarver fight he still showed all the attributes.. This fight is also frustrating because Jones thru it away by not punching, when he did he dominated.. Roy didnt stop throwing because he was gunshy, but because he didnt have the confidence..

The other part of this clip is to show how Jones can sharpshoot thru Joes very porous defense and his sloppy punches create gaps for Jones.. Also we can see how Jones fights off the ropes with beautiful body shots and sharp uppercuts..

Again Im not advocating Roys chances based on round 5 of this fight but its pretty telling about him not being a shot fighter.. not to mention Jones has incorporated a pretty damn good fundamentally sound defense over the past few years..

Joe is gonna get picked off good if he is pittering Jones on the ropes, I dont think Joe can live with Roy thru a toe to toe with clean exchanges

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPP9ffqGYHk

wow, thats vintage Jones...

We must have watched a diffrent Tarver- Jones 3 fight because I saw Roy get wobbled at least 4 times in that fight. Three strait fights his chin was checked and it looked very weak, his ability to get hit was also at an all time high, one round of sharp punching means very little considering you have to survive twelve. Joe is going to have at least 70 punches going his direction every round non stop, Roy is not what he used to be, if you want to call that shot or not is simply up too you.

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Originally Posted by gudnite vienna

wow, thats vintage Jones...

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There are alot of over the hill fighters that can come out and give it their all for one round and look like they did in their prime, I have seen Shane Mosley do it a couple of times ( Most notable), it does not mean they are what they once were.

i for one never said jones was SHOT maybe past his best but not SHOT. I still think he can win saturday.

Actually he's become all the things you state as a shot fighter.

And you can see how he ended up there,he started buying in to his own hype machine. The rap record was a sign of it coming. Putting together the Ruiz fight was a billboard.
It said to me, he didnt really want to be great anymore,he wanted you to think he was. When the publicity outreaches the desire,your fighter is in serious trouble.
Thankfully for Roy, it happened so late in his career, it really wont affect his legacy much. De La Hoya is sort of the same way, though I think Oscar's done a better job of tainting his legacy then Roy. Mosely is heading there rapidly. Hopkins suprisingly hasnt found that path, but thats why he should quit right now.
All of those guys where gods at some point,but, quit while you still are a god.
Nobody wants to remember Ali/Berbick or Ali/Holmes

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Actually he's become all the things you state as a shot fighter.

And you can see how he ended up there,he started buying in to his own hype machine. The rap record was a sign of it coming. Putting together the Ruiz fight was a billboard.
It said to me, he didnt really want to be great anymore,he wanted you to think he was. When the publicity outreaches the desire,your fighter is in serious trouble.
Thankfully for Roy, it happened so late in his career, it really wont affect his legacy much. De La Hoya is sort of the same way, though I think Oscar's done a better job of tainting his legacy then Roy. Mosely is heading there rapidly. Hopkins suprisingly hasnt found that path, but thats why he should quit right now.
All of those guys where gods at some point,but, quit while you still are a god.
Nobody wants to remember Ali/Berbick or Ali/Holmes

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I dont buy an ounce of that... Roy is physically all there, Ai wasnt by the time Holmes and Berbick

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Actually he's become all the things you state as a shot fighter.

And you can see how he ended up there,he started buying in to his own hype machine. The rap record was a sign of it coming. Putting together the Ruiz fight was a billboard.
It said to me, he didnt really want to be great anymore,he wanted you to think he was. When the publicity outreaches the desire,your fighter is in serious trouble.
Thankfully for Roy, it happened so late in his career, it really wont affect his legacy much. De La Hoya is sort of the same way, though I think Oscar's done a better job of tainting his legacy then Roy. Mosely is heading there rapidly. Hopkins suprisingly hasnt found that path, but thats why he should quit right now.
All of those guys where gods at some point,but, quit while you still are a god.
Nobody wants to remember Ali/Berbick or Ali/Holmes

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but thats different compared to roy vs joe. Holmes was a beast and Ali knew he didnt have a chance. Roy can still pull of the upset.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Actually he's become all the things you state as a shot fighter.

And you can see how he ended up there,he started buying in to his own hype machine. The rap record was a sign of it coming. Putting together the Ruiz fight was a billboard.
It said to me, he didnt really want to be great anymore,he wanted you to think he was. When the publicity outreaches the desire,your fighter is in serious trouble.
Thankfully for Roy, it happened so late in his career, it really wont affect his legacy much. De La Hoya is sort of the same way, though I think Oscar's done a better job of tainting his legacy then Roy. Mosely is heading there rapidly. Hopkins suprisingly hasnt found that path, but thats why he should quit right now.
All of those guys where gods at some point,but, quit while you still are a god.
Nobody wants to remember Ali/Berbick or Ali/Holmes

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but thats different compared to roy vs joe. Holmes was a beast and Ali knew he didnt have a chance. Roy can still pull of the upset.

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I agree with King that Roy still has a chance to pull this upset, but on the other hand I believe Roy is no where near what he used to be

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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Actually he's become all the things you state as a shot fighter.

And you can see how he ended up there,he started buying in to his own hype machine. The rap record was a sign of it coming. Putting together the Ruiz fight was a billboard.
It said to me, he didnt really want to be great anymore,he wanted you to think he was. When the publicity outreaches the desire,your fighter is in serious trouble.
Thankfully for Roy, it happened so late in his career, it really wont affect his legacy much. De La Hoya is sort of the same way, though I think Oscar's done a better job of tainting his legacy then Roy. Mosely is heading there rapidly. Hopkins suprisingly hasnt found that path, but thats why he should quit right now.
All of those guys where gods at some point,but, quit while you still are a god.
Nobody wants to remember Ali/Berbick or Ali/Holmes

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but thats different compared to roy vs joe. Holmes was a beast and Ali knew he didnt have a chance. Roy can still pull of the upset.

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I agree with King that Roy still has a chance to pull this upset, but on the other hand I believe Roy is no where near what he used to be

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That dosent mean he is shot

Activity level
What Hopkins learned the hard way,is Joe doesnt have to land the punches. Judges get impressed with activity.
All the hard clean punches were Hopkins, but Joe just slapped at his elbows.
Well guess who "won"
Roy cant keep the work rate up to beat Joe, he's got one chance, a really good punch at the right moment

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

but thats different compared to roy vs joe. Holmes was a beast and Ali knew he didnt have a chance. Roy can still pull of the upset.

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I agree with King that Roy still has a chance to pull this upset, but on the other hand I believe Roy is no where near what he used to be

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That dosent mean he is shot

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i dont think hes SHOT hes just not wat he used to be.

There is every chance that RJJ can upset the bookies ... & for those who like a bet he was 5/2 against Joe's 2/7 on ... now Im a massive fan of JC but thats silly betting ... but if all things was equal at the start of this bout then for me the deciding factor will be that JC will control the pace, which Roy likes to do himself, and that will be his downfall in this fight .. not being able to do that against JC.

:badass::britain::badass::britain::badass:

I`m rooting for Calzaghe on this one. Because I haven`t been right with one prediction yet! :shakehead:

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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper

We must have watched a diffrent Tarver- Jones 3 fight because I saw Roy get wobbled at least 4 times in that fight. Three strait fights his chin was checked and it looked very weak, his ability to get hit was also at an all time high, one round of sharp punching means very little considering you have to survive twelve. Joe is going to have at least 70 punches going his direction every round non stop, Roy is not what he used to be, if you want to call that shot or not is simply up too you.

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Yeah Jones was stunned particulary in the 11th . He fought back harder than he ever use to in his prime but he was blinking as if fighting through a fog . it was bizzarre. Jones was able to recapture his confidence vs Tito but was only able to do it for a couple rounds vs Tarver . I dont think he will have much more success vs Joe who will stay on him unlike Tarver .

I think that 5th round was sad to watch . An all time great going through teh motions , trying to remember what once came so naturally . I dont need to state the obvious but i will . . . prime for prime Jones kills Tarver and Joe

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

so in most opinions Roy was deemed shot after the the Johnson KO.

A shot fighter by the way I understand it as a fighter showing drastic decline in what he once was able to do making it physically impossible to compete at the highest level he once could.

Not being able to pull the trigger

Plodding

Poor reflexes

Horrible stamina

pushing punches

lethargic like handspeed

ETC..

I said it all along, Jones biggest achilles heel since the Tarver and Johnson KO's has been confidence and adjusting to 175 again.. I dont want to get into the factual and scientific toll it takes on your body to slash 25lbs of muscle off your frame in such a short period of time

...

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The Tarver KO was over two years after the Ruiz fight. The weight shouldn't have been that big a deal by then. Besides, I thought Jones looked pretty sharp in that fight. He was outboxing Tarver. He just got caught by a perfect punch

Good post JT.

Anyone that is picking Roy in this fight will look a right mug should they start crying "Roy was shot" once Calzaghe has finished duffing him up. ;)

No way that RJJ is shot...After Tarver knocked him out he just sucked in his fight vs Johnson and the third Tarver fight,still...he came back a bit away from the limelight and not against the best opposition,but solid enough...at this stage of his career he won't get any(much) better as we have seen in his last three fights...I doubt it will be enough for Calzaghe,but who knows...

We'll find out come saturday if he is or not. I agree with JT's points, there is a cazzum of difference between slipping a little and being shot to the extent Ali was against Berbick. Roy did rely on his reflexes for his defence, which are clearly not what they used to be, but his tighter guard and joe's lack of power do give him a good chance for the upset.

Jones isn't "shot" he just getting older.

In order to keep Calzaghe away from him he's going to have to keep that kind of pace for a good amount of the fight. I hope he can do it...

I am as big a Roy Jones fan as anybody. And believe me...i would love to believe that he is still a great fighter. But Roy has slipped A LOT. Is he completely shot like lets say Eric Morales...no. But he is no where near the fighter he was BOTH mentally or physically a few years ago. For whatever the reasons...those knockouts changed him. They changed his confidence, they changed how he fights...they even changed the look in his eye. At his prime Roy had this look that just reeked of confidence. And i don't mean arrogance...but just a look of "i am simply the best athlete in this sport and i can do anything i want in the ring." That look is gone. Sure...part of it is age, the weight problems, the knockouts...or a combo of all these things...but he is no longer anywhere close to the force he was several years ago. And you can tell not only by the way he fights, but by his face and demenour. For god's sake people...he fought a SHOT and inactive Tito...and even though he won...he hardly looked spectacular. I will be rooting for him Saturday...but i know this fight should have happened years ago and Roy should have hung them up already.

Jones is still capable of literally competing but he is no where near the dynamo he once was,That is painfully obvious.His stamina wavers,he is hit and rushed much more,and in his last high caliber championship match with Tarver,his legs were sticky,getting caught and he was fighting in spurts.He has managed to climb back from the brink over three smart return fights capped off with a huge name match up with another great in Trinidad,this combined with his legacy and greatness have helped to springboard him into another big time go at the championship level and we will truly see what he has left.Personally,I'd like to see him win but do not think it will happen.I think Joe will force him to exert and work his legs/stamina a great deal.Should he turn back the clock for a win,shame on me and all credit to the man indeed.

I believe Jones was always more gifted with natural athletic instincts,lightning reflexes and timing more so than all around textbook boxing 101 fundamentals.He may not have been busted up much in career but age and ring years catch up to all fighters,specifically one with eye catching reflexes.Alot of it may be emphasized in Jone's case because of how high he actually was in the game....fairly or unfairly we have come to expect and are used to such a untouchable level of expectations he has displayed throughout the majority of a high profile career.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

i for one never said jones was SHOT maybe past his best but not SHOT. I still think he can win saturday.

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Yay something we agree on.

Certainly Jones is not at his best but he's still a fantastic fighter.

You don't go from being the best in the world to being a bum overnight, unless you get Parkinsons or something at least.

Roy is still a tough test for Joe and has a real chance of winning.

I belive my man Calzaghe will pull out win number 46 though and want him to get credit if/when he does.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

so in most opinions Roy was deemed shot after the the Johnson KO.

A shot fighter by the way I understand it as a fighter showing drastic decline in what he once was able to do making it physically impossible to compete at the highest level he once could.

Not being able to pull the trigger

Plodding

Poor reflexes

Horrible stamina

pushing punches

lethargic like handspeed

ETC..

I said it all along, Jones biggest achilles heel since the Tarver and Johnson KO's has been confidence and adjusting to 175 again.. I dont want to get into the factual and scientific toll it takes on your body to slash 25lbs of muscle off your frame in such a short period of time

...

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The Tarver KO was over two years after the Ruiz fight. The weight shouldn't have been that big a deal by then. Besides, I thought Jones looked pretty sharp in that fight. He was outboxing Tarver. He just got caught by a perfect punch

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Sorry dude it was 13 months. and yea losing that much muscle without natural atrophy in 8 months and it will effect you, especially if your elite level athlete

plus Joe is 36 and I guarantee he wont be a 70 plus punch a round at light heavy... Joe is getting older too

I agree with some of what your saying JT, but my two main concern's is that RJJ doesn't have the stamina or the legs anymore. He constantly lays on the ropes and even when he had Tito, Hanshaw, badly hurt in his comeback fights.

He didn't pull the trigger and i don't know why, was it stamina issues ? or was he worried about being clocked on the chin ? i really don't know but some good points for RJJ, is that he is the bigger man. He is still faster than Joe Calzaghe, and he still has a good straight right hand lead which is Joe Calzaghe's biggest weakness.

But the point is can RJJ pull the trigger enough, and will his stamina hold up to the constant pressure of Joe Calzaghe ?

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Originally Posted by ICB

I agree with some of what your saying JT, but my two main concern's is that RJJ doesn't have the stamina or the legs anymore. He constantly lays on the ropes and even when he had Tito, Hanshaw, badly hurt in his comeback fights.

He didn't pull the trigger and i don't know why, was it stamina issues ? or was he worried about being clocked on the chin ? i really don't know but some good points for RJJ, is that he is the bigger man. He is still faster than Joe Calzaghe, and he still has a good straight right hand lead which is Joe Calzaghe's biggest weakness.

But the point is can RJJ pull the trigger enough, and will his stamina hold up to the constant pressure of Joe Calzaghe ?

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Regaining great stamina and having the ability to let your punches go...very tough at nearly 40. Not to mention his great reflexes have slipped considerably...so he gets hit more (even Tito was able to land). I just think it's near impossible for ANY fighter to be the same after brutal knockouts (especially at Roy's age). I hope i am wrong.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Good post JT.

Anyone that is picking Roy in this fight will look a right mug should they start crying "Roy was shot" once Calzaghe has finished duffing him up. ;)

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I agree, I'll give Joe credit because I believe Roy still has it, were most will say if he fought Roy around the same time Jones beat Woods than it would mean something.. Although I think it would have been more magnificent, I still believe this will be a hard competitive fight for either guy, whoever wins is worthy of all the praise and accolades

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Good post JT.

Anyone that is picking Roy in this fight will look a right mug should they start crying "Roy was shot" once Calzaghe has finished duffing him up. ;)

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I agree, I'll give Joe credit because I believe Roy still has it, were most will say if he fought Roy around the same time Jones beat Woods than it would mean something.. Although I think it would have been more magnificent, I still believe this will be a hard competitive fight for either guy, whoever wins is worthy of all the praise and accolades

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Well.. i don't really agree with you JT. I think Roy is past his best enough to make the win for Calzaghe almost meaningless. I'm certain that's how it will be viewed.

Hopkins beating Pavlik put the Calzaghe win into perspective. Calzaghe, although past his best too, is still showing tremendous form - at the HIGHEST possible level.

I only see Roy winning by early-ish KO. And see that chance as very very slim.

BUT.. if Roy wins it will be GREAT. What a story. 39-year-old Roy beats the 45-0 supermiddle/lightheavy P4P top three ranked fighter in the world. Legend stuff. ;)

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

so in most opinions Roy was deemed shot after the the Johnson KO.

A shot fighter by the way I understand it as a fighter showing drastic decline in what he once was able to do making it physically impossible to compete at the highest level he once could.

Not being able to pull the trigger

Plodding

Poor reflexes

Horrible stamina

pushing punches

lethargic like handspeed

ETC..

I said it all along, Jones biggest achilles heel since the Tarver and Johnson KO's has been confidence and adjusting to 175 again.. I dont want to get into the factual and scientific toll it takes on your body to slash 25lbs of muscle off your frame in such a short period of time

...

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The Tarver KO was over two years after the Ruiz fight. The weight shouldn't have been that big a deal by then. Besides, I thought Jones looked pretty sharp in that fight. He was outboxing Tarver. He just got caught by a perfect punch

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Sorry dude it was 13 months. and yea losing that much muscle without natural atrophy in 8 months and it will effect you, especially if your elite level athlete

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OK, My bad, yes I must have been mixed up with the third fight. OK, I still say that Jones looked OK in the 2nd fight. If the weight thing was still afecting him, it wasn't affecting him that much. The speed was there, he was moving well, landing some fast sharp punches, and he was outboxing Tarver. He just got caught. That's the reason he lost, not the weight loss. Of course Roy would probably like to have us believe the contrary.

Watch that video from about 1:40... he's picking tarver off from the ropes and then turns him onto them.... then at 1:55 he just backs away from him... that's not being shot... it's not having the confidence to step into the pocket and finish the job.

No body is going to deny that Roy doesn't have the physical attributes that he once had, or that he is the under dog in this fight... but he is far from shot and only Roy knows what he is taking into the ring mentally this time...

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Watch that video from about 1:40... he's picking tarver off from the ropes and then turns him onto them.... then at 1:55 he just backs away from him... that's not being shot... it's not having the confidence to step into the pocket and finish the job.

No body is going to deny that Roy doesn't have the physical attributes that he once had, or that he is the under dog in this fight... but he is far from shot and only Roy knows what he is taking into the ring mentally this time...

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Excellent post :appl:

cheers, won't let me rep you :-/

Anyone who completly counts roy out has no clue about boxing,he only needs to show a few seconds of his old self and that could change a result even against someone as good as calzge.
I think Calzage will win but i think he would be a fool to take one of the all time greats past it or not lightly.

he didn't look good in the first tarver figh imo,
but he's not shot someone who shot is holyfield or morales

he still has the speed and also experienced and prime jones would of won those fights

it just happened that he got clocked by tarver.lost his confidence,,he aint got any confidence on his chin no more against glen johnson.it affected his usual laid back reckless abandon smooove style..thats it.hes far from bein shot.i think he slowly got his confidence back on his last few fights.there will be glimpses of the old roy jones jr against calzaghe.and joe can only hope those are short glimpses.;)

If Jones isn't shot he's WAY past his best.

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Originally Posted by leftylee

If Jones isn't shot he's WAY past his best.

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Tell you what though, a way past his best Jones is still better than a 36 year old brittle handed Calzaghe who wings pitter patter punches with a porous defense.. Bernard dropped him once and wobbled him real bad with the last punch of the 7th round because Joe was just moving his hands and not punching..

If you look at the Kessler fight joe ate alot of punches and got dazed a few times because he was careless.. If Jons hits him with the kind of punches that those 2 were able to than Joe is gonna get stopped!!!

Roy can fight and dig Joe with his back to the ropes and hurt him enough to have him think twice.. Guaranteed at 36 and 175lbs Joe cant throw more than 60 punches around without blowing out of his ass with exhaustion, not to mention Joe has never been countered as sharp, quick and powerfully as Jones will do, it will be enough for Joe to ask himself if its worth getting busted up just to throw a few BS insignifigant flurries

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by leftylee

If Jones isn't shot he's WAY past his best.

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Tell you what though, a way past his best Jones is still better than a 36 year old brittle handed Calzaghe who wings pitter patter punches with a porous defense.. Bernard dropped him once and wobbled him real bad with the last punch of the 7th round because Joe was just moving his hands and not punching..

If you look at the Kessler fight joe ate alot of punches and got dazed a few times because he was careless.. If Jons hits him with the kind of punches that those 2 were able to than Joe is gonna get stopped!!!

Roy can fight and dig Joe with his back to the ropes and hurt him enough to have him think twice.. Guaranteed at 36 and 175lbs Joe cant throw more than 60 punches around without blowing out of his ass with exhaustion, not to mention Joe has never been countered as sharp, quick and powerfully as Jones will do, it will be enough for Joe to ask himself if its worth getting busted up just to throw a few BS insignifigant flurries

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How long ago was it when Jones put in a last good performance ?

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Originally Posted by leftylee

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by leftylee

If Jones isn't shot he's WAY past his best.

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Tell you what though, a way past his best Jones is still better than a 36 year old brittle handed Calzaghe who wings pitter patter punches with a porous defense.. Bernard dropped him once and wobbled him real bad with the last punch of the 7th round because Joe was just moving his hands and not punching..

If you look at the Kessler fight joe ate alot of punches and got dazed a few times because he was careless.. If Jons hits him with the kind of punches that those 2 were able to than Joe is gonna get stopped!!!

Roy can fight and dig Joe with his back to the ropes and hurt him enough to have him think twice.. Guaranteed at 36 and 175lbs Joe cant throw more than 60 punches around without blowing out of his ass with exhaustion, not to mention Joe has never been countered as sharp, quick and powerfully as Jones will do, it will be enough for Joe to ask himself if its worth getting busted up just to throw a few BS insignifigant flurries

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How long ago was it when Jones put in a last good performance ?

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Let me ask you this, when was the last time Roy put on a shitty performance?? been a few years..

Joe looked awful and IMO lost to Hopkins, in which Joe was the recipent of the better more effective punches.. Believe me in the Garden the judge arent gonna give to shites about pattycake