I saw someone bring up an interesting point in another thread. Does Calzaghe's performance over Jones make him pound-4-pound the best fighter in the world?
Just want to know what people thought about this?
Printable View
I saw someone bring up an interesting point in another thread. Does Calzaghe's performance over Jones make him pound-4-pound the best fighter in the world?
Just want to know what people thought about this?
I'd still have Pac and maybe JMM ahead of him, but P4P lists are so subjective that they're almost pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by caleoh12
Right now I would say yes...Even though it was a win over a past best Roy Jones it was still Roy Jones....Joe is on a roll in beating top names as of late...His last 6 read off Bika, Lacy, Manfredo, Kessler, Hopkins, Jones...With the exceptioin of Manfredo
Bika was highly regarded, Lacy was thought to be the divisions superman, Kessler no need to explain same for Hopkins...Jones was a fight everyone clamoured for and despite sour grapes from fans it was still a fight they asked for and Joe provided
With that being said that same spot as #1 could be revoked depending on the next fight for JMM, Pacquiao, Vazquez etc
no , Pacman is still number 1
He's done great things for sure but he doesn't top the pacman.
It will be interesting next month though. I mean Pacquaio is fighting a really tough fight against Oscar. If he loses that then by default he'll have to drop a place even though Oscar is bigger so Calzaghe may well be number 1 then.
I know Marquez if often ranked above him though but I don't think he can continue to be.
I don't see how a close defeat and a draw to the Pacman, and wins over an old Casamayor and old Barrera match up to wins over Jones, Hopkins, Kessler and Lacy. When you add in Marquez's loss to Chris John in the same time period as well it's really hard to argue a case for him being higher than Joe on anything except favouritism imo.
Especially in the light of Barrera clearly being finished as a top level fighter as demonstrated by his lacklustre effort against Pacquiao in the rematch.
Hopkins may be old but his performance against Pavlik shows he's still very much amongst the best in the world.
ofcourse joe is number 1 . nobody can rival what hes done
.......wtf?Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
So you can get p4p based onthe names you beat?
instead of the caliber they are at that time?
Roy was no better than Peter Manfredo in that fight.
Hell no he doesn't get p4p for that.
Nope.
Pacs still #1.
The only way Joe will be #1 is IF Pac loses in Dec.
Hopkins beating Pavlik worse tops this, and if you consider their fight really close then Hopkins has a "Draw" against Calzaghe, he beat Wright old or not is as good as KEssler IMO, Tarver, and now Pavlik. Maybe he should be ahead of Calzaghe :D.
J.k I still think Pacquaio has the better resume guys like Barrera and Morales weren't as washed up as Jones when Pacquaio tore them a new one, and he beat JMM who is a great fighter as well(who is still fighting great).
Lacy and Kessler were both highly touted undfeated champions at the time ? Joe has also beaten the legends ? Hes reigned for over a decade ?
Its a no brainer
Lol i really hope you're being sarcastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
Joe in his last interview talks about how he Beat Kessler, Reigned for a decade, and beat 2 american legends.
He never mentions lacy or any other fights. He knows just as well as we do that those guys were nothing.
Look what Pac has done, how many divisions he's been in, how he handled Barrera twice, his war with JMM and Morales. His clinic on diaz and now a possible win over Oscar.
There's no question who is p4p.
Lacy sucks, did you see his last fight?, Kessler I give him credit for, Hopkins I give him credit for, but Roy isn't a legend at this stage in his career, Joe had the perfect style to beat him.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
I agree with Bilbo
Even if Manny puts on a great performance and loses to the much bigger Oscar you still have to drop him after a defeat.
I can't see him beating Oscar so December 7th could see Joe finally top the Ring p4p rankings
Anybody think JMM beat Pac twice? If he did then Pac aint number 1!!
You don't think Morales was as washed up as Jones Jr?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
So defeats to Zahir Raheem and David Diaz showed he was still at the top of his game right? Gimme a break Morales was done then. A couple years earlier whilst still past his best he got a win over Pacquio.
The first win over Barrera was sensational but the rematch was nothing more than a routine win over a aged fighter happy to go the distance.
Marquez is still very much in form, and he pushed Pacquaio to his limits.
No doubt Manny is p4p number 1 though his overal resume is superb, bit his recent performances in the last couple years havn't eclipsed Joe at all.
Calzaghe at super feather and lightweight would have won just the same
Yes i think JMM beat Manny Pacquiao twice, but i also think Robin Reid, Bernard Hopkins, beat Joe Calzaghe so that works both ways ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
P4P JMM is all wrong for Joe Calzaghe.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYou don't think Morales was as washed up as Jones Jr?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
So defeats to Zahir Raheem and David Diaz showed he was still at the top of his game right? Gimme a break Morales was done then. A couple years earlier whilst still past his best he got a win over Pacquio.
The first win over Barrera was sensational but the rematch was nothing more than a routine win over a aged fighter happy to go the distance.
Marquez is still very much in form, and he pushed Pacquaio to his limits.
No doubt Manny is p4p number 1 though his overal resume is superb, bit his recent performances in the last couple years havn't eclipsed Joe at all.
Calzaghe at super feather and lightweight would have won just the same
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupieYes i think JMM beat Manny Pacquiao twice, but i also think Robin Reid, Bernard Hopkins, beat Joe Calzaghe so that works both ways ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
You must have JMM number 1 then ?
Yea why not ? if you think a fighter lost a certain fight, you should rank them lower in the P4P rankings, because its your opinion and your list. Forgetting what the record books say.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H;)Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupieYes i think JMM beat Manny Pacquiao twice, but i also think Robin Reid, Bernard Hopkins, beat Joe Calzaghe so that works both ways ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
You must have JMM number 1 then ?
I think Pernell Whitaker should only have 1 loss on his record, and i think he should be top 10 P4P of all time. And i think Muhammad Ali should have atleast 9 losses on his record and he should be out of the top 10 P4P of all time, thats the beauty of P4P lists mate.
If Pac wasn fighting Oscar next month I would give Joe the Nod, he is undefeated and at one time held ring belts at 168-175 and now is the best 175 fighter in the world.
Regardless of all you hindsight Jockies, be beat Lacy who was a beast and the Heir apparent
Kessler- enough said
awkward Bika
Hopkins
Jones- who wasnt shot
Jones and Hopkins were more competitive than Barrera and Morales the 2nd time around..
But if Pac beats Oscar who is bigger and stronger and not shot than Pac has a stranglehold on PFP, since no one is going to equal that feat anytime soon.. If Manny loses than Joe takes his rightful spot
RJJ who wasn't shot ? you gotta be kidding there bro ? RJJ hasn't had a stoppage win since 2002, and hasn't had the killer instinct or the stamina since 2002, he was way past his past his best.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Atleast MAB when he fought Manny Pacquiao a 2nd time, was coming off a controversial decision loss to one of the top P4P fighters in the world JMM. And Erik Morales was still a good fighter in the first 2 fights with Manny Pacquiao, he was completely shot after though.
Jones couldnt deal wih Joes workrate, he would have been fine against a guy who fought a normal moderate pace, his legs looked good he was moving , wasnt giving in and was brave.. still showed handspeed when he through and stunned Joe a few times with power..Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupieRJJ who wasn't shot ? you gotta be kidding there bro ? RJJ hasn't had a stoppage win since 2002, and hasn't had the killer instinct or the stamina since 2002, he was way past his past his best.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Atleast MAB when he fought Manny Pacquiao a 2nd time, was coming off a controversial decision loss to one of the top P4P fighters in the world JMM. And Erik Morales was still a good fighter in the first 2 fights with Manny Pacquiao, he was completely shot after though.
Jones wasnt the Jones we marveled at but he is still a pretty good fighter
I was actually pretty disappointed with RJJ, Joe Calzaghe was standing right infront of him with his hands down. And RJJ didn't do anything, and he didn't counter nearly as much as i thought he would.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockJones couldnt deal wih Joes workrate, he would have been fine against a guy who fought a normal moderate pace, his legs looked good he was moving , wasnt giving in and was brave.. still showed handspeed when he through and stunned Joe a few times with power..Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupieRJJ who wasn't shot ? you gotta be kidding there bro ? RJJ hasn't had a stoppage win since 2002, and hasn't had the killer instinct or the stamina since 2002, he was way past his past his best.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Atleast MAB when he fought Manny Pacquiao a 2nd time, was coming off a controversial decision loss to one of the top P4P fighters in the world JMM. And Erik Morales was still a good fighter in the first 2 fights with Manny Pacquiao, he was completely shot after though.
Jones wasnt the Jones we marveled at but he is still a pretty good fighter
I just watched a prime RJJ yesterday jeez what a difference, it didn't even look like the same fighter to the version that fought Joe Calzaghe.
I think problem is that RJJ hasn't got the killer instinct no more, and that showed in the 3rd Antonio Tarver fight.
And even more alarmingly in his comeback fights, he had Felix Trinidad, Anthony Hanshaw, in huge trouble and he couldn't finish them off. Plus he didn't have the stamina in any of those fights either.
RJJ still has speed but he doesn't put combinations together JT, which was one of his best attributes. Its all one punch at a time, ever since RJJ moved down from Heavyweight he has looked pretty poor in most of his fights IMO.
Fair play mate. I agree Sweet P should be to 10 p4p of all time. I'm interested to see which 9 fights you had Ali losing (I guess you had him losing all 3 versus Norton)Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupieYea why not ? if you think a fighter lost a certain fight, you should rank them lower in the P4P rankings, because its your opinion and your list. Forgetting what the record books say.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H;)Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupie
You must have JMM number 1 then ?
I think Pernell Whitaker should only have 1 loss on his record, and i think he should be top 10 P4P of all time. And i think Muhammad Ali should have atleast 9 losses on his record and he should be out of the top 10 P4P of all time, thats the beauty of P4P lists mate.
I agree, and said it already, no where near the fighter we marveled at, but still a pretty damn good fighter, I have no doubt that if he jumped on Joe after the KD that he could have had the most spectacular 1st round KO in years he was fresh full of speed and power but like you said dosent have the killer instinct, he let Trinidad off the hook, hell in the 5th round he let tarver off the hook in there 3rd fight, he had Tarver folded over and stunned from bodyshots and uppercuts ready to go against the ropes and he backed away...Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupieI was actually pretty disappointed with RJJ, Joe Calzaghe was standing right infront of him with his hands down. And RJJ didn't do anything, and he didn't counter nearly as much as i thought he would.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockJones couldnt deal wih Joes workrate, he would have been fine against a guy who fought a normal moderate pace, his legs looked good he was moving , wasnt giving in and was brave.. still showed handspeed when he through and stunned Joe a few times with power..Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupie
Jones wasnt the Jones we marveled at but he is still a pretty good fighter
I just watched a prime RJJ yesterday jeez what a difference, it didn't even look like the same fighter to the version that fought Joe Calzaghe.
I think problem is that RJJ hasn't got the killer instinct no more, and that showed in the 3rd Antonio Tarver fight.
And even more alarmingly in his comeback fights, he had Felix Trinidad, Anthony Hanshaw, in huge trouble and he couldn't finish them off. Plus he didn't have the stamina in any of those fights either.
RJJ still has speed but he doesn't put combinations together JT, which was one of his best attributes. Its all one punch at a time, ever since RJJ moved down from Heavyweight he has looked pretty poor in most of his fights IMO.
Joe was hurt and hurt real bad, that wasnt a flash KD he was dazed silly and Jones either thought he would be doing that allnite or dosent have the killer instinct..
Jones was one of the best or the best finisher in the business at one time, now he could careless and that was a huge part of his game.. Guys like RJJ and PBF are so much fun to watch when they close the show they way they pounce and just dissect there opponent with excellent punch selection
I just watched Ken Norton vs Muhammad trilogy again, and i did have him losing all 3 fights. Ken Norton with his crab like style defense, would block Muhammad Ali's jab with his right glove constantly and counter with rising jabs over the top, plus he was putting on effective pressure all night.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HFair play mate. I agree Sweet P should be to 10 p4p of all time. I'm interested to see which 9 fights you had Ali losing (I guess you had him losing all 3 versus Norton)Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupieYea why not ? if you think a fighter lost a certain fight, you should rank them lower in the P4P rankings, because its your opinion and your list. Forgetting what the record books say.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
I think Pernell Whitaker should only have 1 loss on his record, and i think he should be top 10 P4P of all time. And i think Muhammad Ali should have atleast 9 losses on his record and he should be out of the top 10 P4P of all time, thats the beauty of P4P lists mate.
It reminded me of Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon, because just like Ken Norton. Tim Witherspoon with his crab like style defense. Would block Larry Holmes jab with his right glove, and counter with rising jabs over the top. And was putting effective pressure on all night, although i had Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon a draw.
I also had Muhammad Ali losing to Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers, i thought he got a draw with Doug Jones. And technically he should of been DQ in the Henry Cooper fight, because after the knockdown he was given smelling salts, which wern't allowed in the UK at that time i believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
May have been done, but he wasn't a guy who relied as heavily on reflexes and speed as Roy was.
I still say Pac is #1, and if Pac manages to pull a miracle against Oscar there is no way Calzaghe can up that.
Okay so lets compare Pacs record to Joes then .Quote:
Originally Posted by intoccabileLol i really hope you're being sarcastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAME
Joe in his last interview talks about how he Beat Kessler, Reigned for a decade, and beat 2 american legends.
He never mentions lacy or any other fights. He knows just as well as we do that those guys were nothing.
Look what Pac has done, how many divisions he's been in, how he handled Barrera twice, his war with JMM and Morales. His clinic on diaz and now a possible win over Oscar.
There's no question who is p4p.
Pac has been knocked clean out TWICE by guys who were nowhere near world class. He has had a couple of draws with Sanchez and Marquez ( should have lost both ) yeah he beats up washed up guys like Morales and Barrera but a washed up Morales also beat Pac and Pacs biggest win was his decision over Marquez who most people belive ( even the filipino media ) than Marquez deserved the decision . Now he is about to get knocked out again by a washed up De La Hoya.
Joe has beat everyone he has ever faced and has fought consistantly in world class longer than any other active boxer. There can be no debate about who is better . Its clearly Calzaghe
With this win, I'd put Joe at #2, inching past JMM. If Pac loses in December and Joe doesn't retire, then maybe Joe moves up to #1.
Jones fought with heart in this fight. Calzaghe is just better. Calzaghe clowned Jones. Made him look very bad. Who at 160/168/175 would beat Jones other than people that Calzaghe has already beat ( and Chad Dawson or Glen Johnson)? Even though Jones was not in prime form, he still is faster and better than most boxers out there around that weight. Similarly, who would beat Bernard out there? Who would beat Kessler? Speaking of Bernard, the clinic he put on Pavlik has to make Calzaghe's close points win that much more special (Pavlik is the reigning middleweight champion of the world).
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupieI was actually pretty disappointed with RJJ, Joe Calzaghe was standing right infront of him with his hands down. And RJJ didn't do anything, and he didn't counter nearly as much as i thought he would.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockJones couldnt deal wih Joes workrate, he would have been fine against a guy who fought a normal moderate pace, his legs looked good he was moving , wasnt giving in and was brave.. still showed handspeed when he through and stunned Joe a few times with power..Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylee number 1 groupie
Jones wasnt the Jones we marveled at but he is still a pretty good fighter
I just watched a prime RJJ yesterday jeez what a difference, it didn't even look like the same fighter to the version that fought Joe Calzaghe.
I think problem is that RJJ hasn't got the killer instinct no more, and that showed in the 3rd Antonio Tarver fight.
And even more alarmingly in his comeback fights, he had Felix Trinidad, Anthony Hanshaw, in huge trouble and he couldn't finish them off. Plus he didn't have the stamina in any of those fights either.
RJJ still has speed but he doesn't put combinations together JT, which was one of his best attributes. Its all one punch at a time, ever since RJJ moved down from Heavyweight he has looked pretty poor in most of his fights IMO.
Roy can't pull the trigger at will anymore simple as that.....
Well i dont know if i would have Pernell that high i still have guys like Duran, Leonard, and Hearns ahead of him in pound for pound.
Pernell Whitaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Julio Cesar Chavez Win
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez x2 Win
ODLH Draw
Greg Haugen
Wilfredo Rivera x2
James McGirt x2
Freddie Pendleton
Roger Mayweather
Jorge Paez
Rafael Pineda
Julio Cesar Vasquez
ETC.
I don't think your find that many quality wins on Roberto Duran or SRL resume. Plus i think he stayed at the top much longer than those guys did, SRL retired alot. And Roberto Duran lost alot in the 80s.
Joe beats a 39 nearly 40 year old Roy Jones and now the fanboys want him to be P4P#1 LOL;D he is number 3 and thats it
Right now my all time out of those 3
B-Hop 1
RJJ 2
Calzaghe 3
;D
latest Ring P4P ratings as of November 10, 2008:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2z5rbzt.jpg
I was reading this and I thought of a point i'd like to ask you what to think.
Is someones p4p status in question if their biggest victories are always in question?
Because the only unmistakable uncriticized performance of Calzaghe was his domination of Kessler.
But there is always a but at the end of his other victories.
Roy Jones - Roy was past his prime and even then had Joe on dream street in the first round
Hopkins - Was a split decision and many felt Hopkins won
Lacy - american hype job that struggled against lesser competition that actually boxed him
Eubank - Eubank was weight drained and/or wasn't mentally the same fighter he was after the Watson fight.
Does it effect Joe's p4p status that most of his biggest wins have some sort of taint on them. Because imo p4p means you dominate everyone in their prime whether or not they are the hugest name. But that when it came to your biggest wins are against people in their prime. (Ray Leonard beat Hearns in his prime etc, Ali beat Foreman in his prime etc)
Hindsight is 20/20 but the only true credible prime Joe beat was Kessler, and I mean that in terms of no one questions it or criticizes Joe for it. Not like they do Lacy anyway.
If you look at someone like Pacquiao his biggest wins are almost never in question.
or if you look at Mayweather who's only question was against Castillo which he corrected later on.
Does this effect his ranking in p4p?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Some people do take tainted wins into effect on their personal P4P rankings. I think RING Rankings go with whatever the official decision was (AS DO I).
Well Ice all depends i think Sugar Ray leonard beat the better people and moved up in weight alot more as well so i think he should be higher. Hearns has moved from WW to CW and still knocked people out and beat good people along the way as well. As for Duran he only started losing alot because he was fighting MW Pernell never moved up like Duran did. So i would have to say pound for pound Duran, Leonard and Hearns in my book well always be above Pernell but thats just my thoughts. You say Pernell is up there i say Duran, Leonard and Hearns are above just thoughts that are not wrong or right i guess you could say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Sorry for being lazy here but Daxx said what I woulda said ... well said bro.
:badass::badass::badass:
Yeah until December 6th and Manny beats Oscar ;)