Dont remember seeing this one before but who do you think would win?
I know some guys on here will think I am crazy and even thought he is an ATG I think Calzaghe has the stlye to beat Hagler even if he carried his power and speed up to SMW.
Printable View
Dont remember seeing this one before but who do you think would win?
I know some guys on here will think I am crazy and even thought he is an ATG I think Calzaghe has the stlye to beat Hagler even if he carried his power and speed up to SMW.
gotta be hagler, calzaghe would get into his pride style and stand and trade, and if that happened, end of the night for joe
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
Calzaghe ajusted his fighting style against Kessler when he was getting caught with to many shots and there is no reason why he would not do then same against Hagler if needed.
Also Hagler was not a devestating 1 punch hitter.Apart from a week chined Tommy Hearns who did Hagler beat early?
It's presumptious to say Hagler can KO Calzaghe IMO. If he can hurt Calzaghe then I think he has a good shot of winning, but otherwise I see Calzaghe overwhelming him with workrate, and adapting so Hagler finds it harder and harder to hit him.
Calzaghe tends to trde to keep things interesting. Hagler is the wrong guy to trade with. At a catchweight of say 165 Hagler stops him in 10.
prime for prime Hagler chews up Calzaghe and says who's next. If Byron Mitchell can floor a prime Calzaghe , the Hagler walks through him.
Hagler all day. If JC got floored by some of the guys he did, than Hagler would have him. The only guy to ever floor Hagler was Roldan who was a well known huge puncher, & even then some people consider it more of a trip. So Joe couldn't drop him, & I think if Hagler put Joe down when he got back up Hagler would make sure he went back down. TBH the only Middleweight or SMW of the last 20 years, that I can see maybe beating a Hagler is a prime B-Hop, because he's so clever in the ring and working out individual opponents.
Mitchell was a big puncher at super middle, Hagler wasnt at middle and if Hagler were in the middle weight division today, hed have more sense than to move up and get the piss taken out of him by the bigger, stronger and faster Calzaghe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Hagler never had the balls to move up before so why now?;D
All the big names Hagler beat were from Welter;D
Are they in the same weight class? Or if not, did either Marvin or Joe, move in weight categories, with relative ease?
I am having a hard time framing them in a picture-- with that vast disparity in stature constantly obscuring this side of clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
That is not always the case is it?:lickish:
A bit like saying the coz A young Muhammad Ali got dropped against Banks and Cooper that Frazer and Forman would chew him up so to speak.
Any fighter if he gets caught right can go down.Its just the great champions get up and fight back and win.
Calzaghe hasnt fought below 168 and that is a stuggle so there is now way the fight would have happend below 168.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom
Thats right, Hagler never moved up and never wanted to, he was quite content to fight others who had the balls to move up and as much of a hard fight that Hagler had with Mugabi im sure Joe wouldnt have struggled.
Hagler plodded forward and wore people down, that wouldnt happen with Joe, especially since Joe would be naturally stronger as well.
I havent seen to many of Hagler's fights but Joe is a heck of a fighter and adapts well and can make changes when needed...
I think Joe has underrated power and would give any fighter in his weight range a run for their money.....
I think Joe would have the most trouble with a guy that has 1 punch knockout power because Joe's defense is usually his offense and can be caught clean.....He does have a solid chin though....
Completely bogus statement,Hagler was too short to move upQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
Marvin had a great sun as middlweight champ, but i don't think he was a great skilled fighter... some what of a magarito type fighter - his chin allowed him to fight his fight and force the guy onto the back foot and break them down.
When he fought truly skilled fighter like Ray and duran, even though they were MUCH MUCH smaller than him, look at the trouble he had... i mean true great natural middleweight should not get beat by a normal sized Welter, no matter how skilled they are, let alone one who had been so inactive... and duran, best @ lightweight... almost beat marvin...
of course being such a "fan boy" i am going to pick Joe... early on it could be 50/50 if joe fought a bit silly... but even if that was the case, take the kessler fight, he knows how to adapt and fight right, he has always done it so i see no reason for him not to do it if this fictious fight happened...
marvin was pretty easy to work, two steps into every move, good fighters can see it coming and know what he was going, he didn't has a great array of punches either, it was just non stop pressure backed up by that rock solid chin of his.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Hagler was 5,9 and a half whereas Roberto Duran who started out as a light weight and gave Hagler one of his hardest fights is only 5,7";D
Look at Pacquiao;D
Making excuses for Hagler:rolleyes:
I think people are letting their ATG p4p list ranking fool them. Calzaghe is a really good figher, who would be competitive with any of the four even likely p4p. People also forget that Calzaghe doesn't spar when he trains, so that would give him a higher tendency to go down in the early rounds. If Hagler could truly hurt Calzaghe, then I think he could win, but I don't see him hurting Calzaghe besides maybe once early, but we've seen how Calzaghe deals with those situations. I think these two are both built of the same clothe in many ways, both are unorthodox southpaws who are undeniably effective, they both like to impose their will, they both can box or fight, they both are better offensively than defensively. They both have that "hardness" to them that makes them so effective.
Duran by the time he was done moving up in weight,looked like he ate DuranQuote:
Originally Posted by rossReally?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Hagler was 5,9 and a half whereas Roberto Duran who started out as a light weight and gave Hagler one of his hardest fights is only 5,7";D
Look at Pacquiao;D
Making excuses for Hagler:rolleyes:
He did move up though now didnt he you silly boy;D
On top of that he beat probably the Eighties best fighter, Ray leonard.
Durrrrr!!!;D;D;D;D;D
Hagler couldve moved up in weight but didnt, Joe could have and did, alot of fighters have and been very successfull, Marvin was happy enough taking on smaller fighters and then retired like a spoilt brat when one beat him;D
You've got to remember though that they didn't really have a proper SMW division then, & that fighters would have to jump up 2 divisions, so there is the possibility that had 168lbs division been there & had good fights that Hagler would have gone up towards the end of his career. Although I do agree he could've acted with a LOT more grace after SRL beat himQuote:
Originally Posted by ross
Stick to Joe Calzaghe you haven't got a clue about Marvin Hagler, do you realize he used to be a skilled counter puncher who used movement ? and that only in the last few years of his career did he fight more aggressively coming forward . And please do not compare Antonio Margarito/Marvin Hagler that is a ridiculous comment. Marvin Hagler even when he was pressuring was a very skilled fighter, who jabbed his way in. Cut off the ring and used a good variety of punches. And Roberto Duran almost beat Marvin Hagler ? stop looking at boxrec and boxing articles and actually watch the fight, its one of the most overrated close fights in history. Marvin Hagler was a clear winner in that fight, and considering Roberto Duran managed to win the Middleweight title off the huge Iran Barkley, i would say he was still very good at Middleweight. And as for SRL he was not a natural Welterweight IMO, and size wise SRL and Marvin Hagler are almost the same size, regarding height and weight, Marvin Hagler was never over the Middleweight limit only a few times, that means he was a natural Middleweight and couldn't move up really any higher. Lastly SRL only took the fight with Marvin Hagler because Marvin Hagler was a shot fighter and he had slowed down alot especially in his brutal war, with John Mugabi. And SRL demanded the bigger ring, the gloves, the ring size, the rounds, as a matter of fact had that fight been 15 rounds like it was scheduled to be at first, until SRL got it changed. SRL would of been stopped 100 percent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
Super Middleweight division was made a proper division in 1984, now at that time. There was no big names at that weight class at all. So it would of been a waste of time moving up to that weight class, especially with all the big names at Middleweight. Lastly the only other move he could of made was move up to Light Heavyweight and he was clearly too small for that weight class, Ross you know nothing about boxing your an idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
ICB what hell are you talking about? Leonard was about 15 pounds lighter than Hagler come fight night, he looked way smaller, height hardly means size. Also just because a fighter is effective above their natural weight doesn't mean that is their natural weightclass. You also assume we know nothing of Hagler, he was a good boxer, but no way would he have outboxed Calzaghe. They both are underrated in that category, but the speed and height advantage has to play in Calzaghe's favor. Also the Duran-Hagler fight I've seen it probably 10 times, and it was a close fight until the end when Duran gassed out, but he was an old man by then and they had a rough fight, maybe you should be the one to watch the fight, because it was a close fight that Hagler clearly won. Also Leonard hadn't fought in three years in a weightclass he had never been in, Hagler should have clearly won despite the advantages in Leonard's favor, and Hagler was hardly the wreck of a fighter you make him out to be near the end of his career, he was 31 still had most of his speed, its just his level of opposition increased dramatically closer to the end of his career which made him look probably more like the fighter he actually was a tough fighter, with good boxing skills, but first and foremost was a pressure fighter who could punch and take a punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonito DonaireStick to Joe Calzaghe you haven't got a clue about Marvin Hagler, do you realize he used to be a skilled counter puncher who used movement ? and that only in the last few years of his career did he fight more aggressively coming forward . And please do not compare Antonio Margarito/Marvin Hagler that is a ridiculous comment. Marvin Hagler even when he was pressuring was a very skilled fighter, who jabbed his way in. Cut off the ring and used a good variety of punches. And Roberto Duran almost beat Marvin Hagler ? stop looking at boxrec and boxing articles and actually watch the fight, its one of the most overrated close fights in history. Marvin Hagler was a clear winner in that fight, and considering Roberto Duran managed to win the Middleweight title off the huge Iran Barkley, i would say he was still very good at Middleweight. And as for SRL he was not a natural Welterweight IMO, and size wise SRL and Marvin Hagler are almost the same size, regarding height and weight, Marvin Hagler was never over the Middleweight limit only a few times, that means he was a natural Middleweight and couldn't move up really any higher. Lastly SRL only took the fight with Marvin Hagler because Marvin Hagler was a shot fighter and he had slowed down alot especially in his brutal war, with John Mugabi. And SRL demanded the bigger ring, the gloves, the ring size, the rounds, as a matter of fact had that fight been 15 rounds like it was scheduled to be at first, until SRL got it changed. SRL would of been stopped 100 percent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
Dont cry about it;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nonito DonaireSuper Middleweight division was made a proper division in 1984, now at that time. There was no big names at that weight class at all. So it would of been a waste of time moving up to that weight class, especially with all the big names at Middleweight. Lastly the only other move he could of made was move up to Light Heavyweight and he was clearly too small for that weight class, Ross you know nothing about boxing your an idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Hagler wouldve eaten punches all night like Lacy did.
shouldn't there have been a grin or something at the end of that second line Ross?
Yeah, but there is no happy medium these days, some people are idolizing the past, others are ignorant to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
I agree people put up guys from the past on a pedestal. I don't think Hagler would stop him.
He would be more precise with his punches though. Joe would throw more most likely. Depends on what a judge likes I guess.
I don't know, You get Calzaghe throwing sloppy punches when he is doing anything to land like against Hopkins or he is able to land with everything like against Lacy, but when he fought Kessler, I was very impressed with how accurate and well schooled he was in his own way.
First of all, moving up wasn't much of an option for Hagler since 168 didn't exist then and Spinks, a top 5 ATG LHW and a MUCH bigger man, was champion at 175. You've obviously never seen Hagler in his prime, 1978-1981. Hagler was past in by the Mugabi fight, and his style had degenerated at that point. As for his power, he KO'd everybody he defended against except Leonard and Duran.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
That being said, Hagler had problems with movers and Calzaghe would present a stylistic problem for Hagler. I might favor Calzaghe in 12 rounds, but if you gave a prime Hagler 15 rounds to pound on Calzaghe, Marvin would break him down eventually.
I don't get your logic why would Hagler be able to break down a guy who gets stronger as the fight progresses? If anything Calzaghe is one of the few champions who would be WAY better if fights were still 15 rounds long.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanFirst of all, moving up wasn't much of an option for Hagler since 168 didn't exist then and Spinks, a top 5 ATG LHW and a MUCH bigger man, was champion at 175. You've obviously never seen Hagler in his prime, 1978-1981. Hagler was past in by the Mugabi fight, and his style had degenerated at that point. As for his power, he KO'd everybody he defended against except Leonard and Duran.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
That being said, Hagler had problems with movers and Calzaghe would present a stylistic problem for Hagler. I might favor Calzaghe in 12 rounds, but if you gave a prime Hagler 15 rounds to pound on Calzaghe, Marvin would break him down eventually.
At middleweight Hagler but at super middle Joe but only just. The late 1970's version was an excellent boxer, he later became more of a pressure fighter.
I hear you, and it's a good point, but my reasoning is different. Against most fighters, you are right that Calzaghe would be an even better 15 round fighter. He's my thinking, but I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethI don't get your logic why would Hagler be able to break down a guy who gets stronger as the fight progresses? If anything Calzaghe is one of the few champions who would be WAY better if fights were still 15 rounds long.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanFirst of all, moving up wasn't much of an option for Hagler since 168 didn't exist then and Spinks, a top 5 ATG LHW and a MUCH bigger man, was champion at 175. You've obviously never seen Hagler in his prime, 1978-1981. Hagler was past in by the Mugabi fight, and his style had degenerated at that point. As for his power, he KO'd everybody he defended against except Leonard and Duran.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
That being said, Hagler had problems with movers and Calzaghe would present a stylistic problem for Hagler. I might favor Calzaghe in 12 rounds, but if you gave a prime Hagler 15 rounds to pound on Calzaghe, Marvin would break him down eventually.
Both Hagler and Calzaghe get stronger as the fight goes on, but Hagler would be putting more punishment on Calzaghe than Calzaghe could put on Hagler. Calzaghe would be able to steal rounds, much like Leonard did, but the cumulative affect would take it's toll eventually. Leonard was a great 15 round fighter, too, but if the fight with Hagler had been 15, Hagler certainly would have stopped him. It was Calzaghe's EARLY lead that carried him through against Reid, and IMHO, if Hagler had hitting Calzaghe like Reid hit Calzaghe, Calzaghe might not have energy for a strong finish.
For the record, and old Joe Calzaghe beats an old Marvin Hagler. Joe aged much better than Marvin. The version of Hagler that fought Leonard and Mugabi would get outboxed by Joe C.
Not early Hagler. Young Hagler had great legs and fought off his toes often. Against pressure fighters, he would move backwards and counter, then pressure when he had the advantage. The Duran fight was not his best performance, and Duran is an ATG who fought a tremendous fight. Also, Hagler was a pretty old 31. He had 64 fights under his belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethICB what hell are you talking about? Leonard was about 15 pounds lighter than Hagler come fight night, he looked way smaller, height hardly means size. Also just because a fighter is effective above their natural weight doesn't mean that is their natural weightclass. You also assume we know nothing of Hagler, he was a good boxer, but no way would he have outboxed Calzaghe. They both are underrated in that category, but the speed and height advantage has to play in Calzaghe's favor. Also the Duran-Hagler fight I've seen it probably 10 times, and it was a close fight until the end when Duran gassed out, but he was an old man by then and they had a rough fight, maybe you should be the one to watch the fight, because it was a close fight that Hagler clearly won. Also Leonard hadn't fought in three years in a weightclass he had never been in, Hagler should have clearly won despite the advantages in Leonard's favor, and Hagler was hardly the wreck of a fighter you make him out to be near the end of his career, he was 31 still had most of his speed, its just his level of opposition increased dramatically closer to the end of his career which made him look probably more like the fighter he actually was a tough fighter, with good boxing skills, but first and foremost was a pressure fighter who could punch and take a punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonito DonaireStick to Joe Calzaghe you haven't got a clue about Marvin Hagler, do you realize he used to be a skilled counter puncher who used movement ? and that only in the last few years of his career did he fight more aggressively coming forward . And please do not compare Antonio Margarito/Marvin Hagler that is a ridiculous comment. Marvin Hagler even when he was pressuring was a very skilled fighter, who jabbed his way in. Cut off the ring and used a good variety of punches. And Roberto Duran almost beat Marvin Hagler ? stop looking at boxrec and boxing articles and actually watch the fight, its one of the most overrated close fights in history. Marvin Hagler was a clear winner in that fight, and considering Roberto Duran managed to win the Middleweight title off the huge Iran Barkley, i would say he was still very good at Middleweight. And as for SRL he was not a natural Welterweight IMO, and size wise SRL and Marvin Hagler are almost the same size, regarding height and weight, Marvin Hagler was never over the Middleweight limit only a few times, that means he was a natural Middleweight and couldn't move up really any higher. Lastly SRL only took the fight with Marvin Hagler because Marvin Hagler was a shot fighter and he had slowed down alot especially in his brutal war, with John Mugabi. And SRL demanded the bigger ring, the gloves, the ring size, the rounds, as a matter of fact had that fight been 15 rounds like it was scheduled to be at first, until SRL got it changed. SRL would of been stopped 100 percent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
Going by boxrec he had 61 fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Duran was a year older and had 81 fights;D and this was also his first fight at middle;D
Hagler is starting to look like Taylor;)
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by rossGoing by boxrec he had 61 fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Duran was a year older and had 81 fights;D and this was also his first fight at middle;D
Hagler is starting to look like Taylor;)
It dont matter what anyone says, Duran was older, smaller and had more miles on the clock;D
Duran is still an ATG HoFer who managed to beat Iran Barkley a few years later. This is Roberto Duran we are talking about, one of the greatest fighters to ever put on a pair of gloves. And Hagler beat him clearly, more clearly than Joe beat old 'Nard or for that matter, Robin Reid.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Fair play but I for one know that Reid is very underrated and was unfortunate to come at the same time as Joe, Reid had power and a good chin but lacked the fire to beat up the lesser men:confused:
Reid was deffo good;)
Yep Hagler beat him but Hagler also had losses;)
As yet Joe is unbeaten;)
Happy new year, its only a boxing forum and unless there is a delorian kicking around any old versus new boxing mythical matches are open for debate so no one will win:o;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanI hear you, and it's a good point, but my reasoning is different. Against most fighters, you are right that Calzaghe would be an even better 15 round fighter. He's my thinking, but I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethI don't get your logic why would Hagler be able to break down a guy who gets stronger as the fight progresses? If anything Calzaghe is one of the few champions who would be WAY better if fights were still 15 rounds long.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Both Hagler and Calzaghe get stronger as the fight goes on, but Hagler would be putting more punishment on Calzaghe than Calzaghe could put on Hagler. Calzaghe would be able to steal rounds, much like Leonard did, but the cumulative affect would take it's toll eventually. Leonard was a great 15 round fighter, too, but if the fight with Hagler had been 15, Hagler certainly would have stopped him. It was Calzaghe's EARLY lead that carried him through against Reid, and IMHO, if Hagler had hitting Calzaghe like Reid hit Calzaghe, Calzaghe might not have energy for a strong finish.
For the record, and old Joe Calzaghe beats an old Marvin Hagler. Joe aged much better than Marvin. The version of Hagler that fought Leonard and Mugabi would get outboxed by Joe C.
That's valid, I am not sure I would see a younger Hagler putting that type of punishment on Calzaghe though. I think Calzaghe is better now than in his physical prime because he has improved as a boxer, I am not sure Hagler would find it super easy to hit him, I mean both Hopkins and Roy are old, they are still very quick and still amazingly accurate, and even Bernard had some difficulties finding Calzaghe as the night progressed because Joe doesn't slow down.
And like Rozzysean said, I don't think prime Hagler would be so eager to just pressure Calzaghe, and I don't think he is fast enough to catch Calzaghe coming in, consistently. Kessler was able to because he was orthodox, and Bernard was able to because he is an amazing counter puncher, but both gradually landed less, and less punches as Calzaghe maintained or increased the tempo, and got more into a rhythm.
As for Leonard, he hadn't fought in three years, so you can't really use him being good before in 15 round fights as evidence for the Hagler fight, especially against a guy so much bigger (Hagler's head probably weighed as much as Ray). I am looking back at Hagler's record and I honestly see a punch of pylons for him to walk over Minter, Watts, Hamani . I think a lot of what people see of Hagler is him fighting guys WAY worse than him, and if you remember when Foreman came back he was able to dominate guys and outbox them because they were so much below him. The guys on Hagler's list don't rate highly to me, and him not being able to stop Leonard even in 12 rounds or Duran in 15 makes me think HAgler wouldn't be too much for Calzaghe.